posted on March 27, 2003 07:41:53 AM new
profe - I'm glad to read that you don't think he's too religious.
You have shared your 'oversight' of what you see happening in the classrooms. And I agree with your agreement of what Borillar said. The only difference is I don't see it as a 'bad' thing, like so many here do.
How I see the 'religious' issue is that since 86% of American's claim to be affilated with some religion, a belief in their God, we're seeing a swing of the 'pendulum' in reverse of what it's been for a number of years.
For years people have remained silent about their religious beliefs...imo, so as not to offend others. Now those same people have reached the point where they believe their tolerance has turned into encouragement for the full-fledged efforts to remove 'God' from everything. That's what I believe we're seeing a reversal in. More are standing up and in essence saying "I respect your right to not choose to 'believe' but you've stepped over the line and now you're trying to take my right to proudly show my religious convictions to the world. My right, my freedom under our constitution.
To me, it's not Bush that is pushing the 'slide into religion' that you and Borillar notice, but rather many in our country that have been silent and are now speaking out. Having a president that shares the same morals, belief in a 'God' etc....and they are encouraging him in this reversal, rather than it being 'him' that is pushing the direction.
Only one person's opinions, but this is the way things have look to me for a long time.
So many appear to be threatened in some way, by those who hold religious beliefs that they have very actively worked to surpress the rights of others.
gravid and Helen - You, of course, will think what you will. But I disagree with both of you.
posted on March 27, 2003 03:28:17 PM new
Linda_K: I may have my sequences wrong, but doesn't Israel have to rebuild the temple first? And since the Muslim Golden dome is there, it needs to be removed first.
posted on March 27, 2003 03:49:53 PM new
A belief in your own God doesn't necessarily equate to a religious belief Linda, and some so-called religions, have nothing to do with God, so saying 86% of all Americans being affiliated to some religion sounds like Bush has that much support for his mixing religion in with politics, which I don't believe is true.
posted on March 27, 2003 04:50:42 PM new
As if Iraq weren't already enough of a political nightmare.........
Poised and Ready
Critic of Islamic Faith Wants to Provide Humanitarian Aid
By Deborah Caldwell
March 27 — Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham and one of the nation's most outspoken critics of Islam, said Wednesday he has relief workers "poised and ready" to roll into Iraq to provide for the population's post-war physical and spiritual needs.
posted on March 27, 2003 04:51:41 PM new
"Gravid, I bet the sight of a cross burns your eyes!"
When you finally manage your agenda to get them on our money and military uniforms and hanging behind the speakers platform in the congress they will, yes.
By then it will have become a symbol forever corrupted to one regime in history like the swastika.
posted on March 27, 2003 05:09:29 PM new
::Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham and one of the nation's most outspoken critics of Islam, said Wednesday he has relief workers "poised and ready" to roll into Iraq to provide for the population's post-war physical and spiritual needs. ::
Just what they need - "Want to sandwhich? Who's your savior?"
::Graham, who has publicly called Islam a "wicked" religion, said the relief agency he runs, Samaritan's Purse, is in daily contact with U.S. government agencies in Amman, Jordan, about its plans. ::
Yes Mr Graham, I've told him about your other 97 calls, I'm sure he will get back to you, Mr Graham. He's in a war right right."
::Graham didn't seem concerned that the public presence in Iraq of Samaritan's Purse — which has put out a press release about its activities — could prompt already-skeptical Muslims worldwide to view the war as a crusade against Islam.
"We would not go in and participate in something that would embarrass our administration," he said. But he added, "We don't work for the U.S. government, so we don't get our permission from them."::
Translation , "As soon as those soldiers turn their back I'm taking the sandwich until you claim Jesus as your savior."
posted on March 27, 2003 05:14:59 PM new"proudly show my religious convictions" Code phrase for force my personal religion down your throat by making it the official state religion at secular events. See this is exactly what I'm talking about. The animosity some people have towards those who believe in God. But somehow liberals want and demand we be respectful of those of say Muslim faith. Teach it in our schools, re-enact their prayers, dress like they do, etc...that's somehow okay. But for say a Christian to sit outside on a bench on school property and have a few friends join him in prayer, is going to destroy our country.
Some appear to think that if I and others want to have our constitutional right to practice our beliefs anywhere, we are automatically, in some way, forcing them upon you. That's simple not true. Because I'm not speaking of forcing you to do anything you don't wish to do. I'm speaking of my rights to practice my religion/beliefs any where I want. That's my right, gravid.
If you wish to partisipate in public life you can stand to the side looking ashamed and hope nobody beats you up on the way to your car. That's crazy. Any violence against anyone isn't right or legal. Again, no force being applied, just the right to practice what one believes....where one chooses...
Of course you disagree. God told you so. What a rude statement. No, God didn't tell me so. It's a constitutional right Amercian's have, gravid. Those on the left wish to stifle that right.
Are there any other little voices in your ear? This sarcasim is unbecoming to you gravid. You feel threatened by those who believe in God?
posted on March 27, 2003 05:18:34 PM new
Valleygirl - I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to your question. I had my religious training as a young child and young adult. I haven't been in a church for over 35 years. But I do have a belief in my God. And I have felt resentment at those who have worked so hard to take "God" out of our everyday lives. I do believe those who practice their faith have a right to do so....without that 'right' being squashed at every turn.
posted on March 27, 2003 05:25:45 PM new
Kraftdinner - A belief in your own God doesn't necessarily equate to a religious belief Linda, and some so-called religions, have nothing to do with God, so saying 86% of all Americans being affiliated to some religion sounds like Bush has that much support for his mixing religion in with politics, which I don't believe is true.
Maybe isn't the wording I used that you don't like. AND I know you are anti-religion....that's why you always start these types of religious threads. I find it offensive that others can't find more tolerance in themselves to live and let be. I'm not talking when someone is trying to force anything upon you. But leave them alone to practice their beliefs. Our president, just like anyother person in this country has a right to practice free speech and his religion whenever and whereever he wants to. Sure it appears to bother lots of you here. Too bad. You didn't vote for him anyway and you won't be the one's taking his right to do so away from him. So....#*!@ on.
On the 86% that poll was taken right after 9-11 and was reported then, and has many times since been restated. 86% of Americans believe in a God. Not the same God, but their God. Whether you believe it or not, doesn't change the facts.
posted on March 27, 2003 05:28:54 PM new
Linda, while I am non-religious I have no problem with others being free to practice as they wish (OK - I admit I have a thing against TV evangelists - their pious self righteousness annoys the hell out of me).
I don' t agree with organized prayer in the schools because it turns those that do not participate into targets of persecution (please don't tell me it doesn't, I dealt with it personally) but I hvae no problem with religious affiliated groups on school property (if chess freaks can meet , so can the jesus freaks )
I am however curious if you can give me some insight on why a nation that bases a great deal of pride on the diversity of its cultures and religiou freedoms must have "In God We Trust" on it's currency? Why are christians so insulted by the move to remove it considering the percentage of people to whom it does not apply?
posted on March 27, 2003 05:34:16 PM new
Oh kraft, you are not religious or anything, then why bother worrying about the 'end times' sheesh
neomania, do you know who the Assyrian Christians are, and where they have always lived?????????
Suprisingly, I'm sure a lot do not, but they make up 8-10% NOW of Iraqi population.
They are the 'FIRST' Christians... you'll find them in the NT somewhere.....
They DO want Saddam out, but then, they are only a small number...right?
So the Christian relief won't be tolerated... I doubt neomania, that Graham the son, will force JESUS down anyone, such as you say, I'll give you this food, if you say you'll take Jesus... maybe thats what you've seen, but I do not think ALL missionaries are like that, we are not living in the middle AGES any longer
Gotta meet our realtor now
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 27, 2003 05:42:44 PM new
::neomania, do you know who the Assyrian Christians are, and where they have always lived???????::
Yes Near I do - I'm also aware that much like the Chaldeans they are in the extreme minority. Besides which, I don't think that Billy Graham is going to save the souls of the Christians.
posted on March 27, 2003 05:44:41 PM new
No LindaK I think the other religions are just as big a racket as Christendom. I don't want to see the President getting sworn in with his hand on the Koran or the Torah either.
posted on March 27, 2003 05:44:45 PM new
::So the Christian relief won't be tolerated... I doubt neomania, that Graham the son, will force JESUS down anyone, such as you say, I'll give you this food, if you say you'll take Jesus... maybe thats what you've seen, but I do not think ALL missionaries are like that, we are not living in the middle AGES any longer ::
Do you possess a sense of humor or any recognition skills whatsoever for sarcasm?
posted on March 27, 2003 05:50:14 PM newLinda, while I am non-religious I have no problem with others being free to practice as they wish (OK - I admit I have a thing against TV evangelists - their pious self righteousness annoys the hell out of me). Yes, but see they have a right to be on TV and as long as they get funding for their 'causes' that's their right. People who don't like it, like me, just don't watch it. So it annoys you. It's their constitutional right. [hoping not to be coming across as sarcastic in my posts because of my word usage.]
I don't agree with organized prayer in the schools because it turns those that do not participate into targets of persecution (please don't tell me it doesn't, I dealt with it personally) but I hve no problem with religious affiliated groups on school property (if chess freaks can meet, so can the jesus freaks. You're an exception then. Because while liberals think it's okay for a gay group to meet on school grounds, etc...it's not okay for a religious group to do so. Or liberals feel they have the right to tell groups like the Boy Scouts what they can and can't do. Why? They don't want religion forced down their throats....but they're trying to force their beliefs on a group who basis part of their beliefs on religious teachings. You'd think they were the KKK the way some liberals act.
I am however curious if you can give me some insight on why a nation that bases a great deal of pride on the diversity of its cultures and religiou freedoms must have "In God We Trust" on it's currency? Why are christians so insulted by the move to remove it considering the percentage of people to whom it does not apply? Since our country was founded our nation has had a basic religious belief. Many have posted here over the years that that's not true. Well, history proves otherwise. The "In God We Trust" didn't come until the 50s. It's not just the removal of God off our currency....it's the whole kit-and-kabootle. Those who want God off and out of everything.
I always compare this to the smoking craze. First it's "I don't want you smoking while I'm eating." Fine...then it's you have to sit in the smoking section. Fine. Then it's you can't smoke in here. Okay...but now it's gone to extremes. We recently were discussing some place that was trying to make it a law that if you were in your own home smoking, and the smoke was coming out your window and 'bother anyone' you could be fined. What nonsense. Not really a good example, but one that I very much believe is what we've been experience here in American with religion. And, as I said in my first post, people have become angry about what they feel are rights they have being taken away...and their speaking out about it. Both with their votes, and with their voices.
posted on March 27, 2003 06:03:56 PM new
gravid - I think the other religions are just as big a racket as Christendom. I don't want to see the President getting sworn in with his hand on the Koran or the Torah either. [saying respectfully here] So, you have the right to think that. What you don't have the right to do is take away the religious peoples constitutional rights to practice any faith they wish to, no matter your judgement of it. That's what I'm discussing. That's the point I'm trying to debate here with all who would like to wipe any 'faith' off the face of our country. The way you 'voice' your opinion of not wanting to see a President with his hand on the Koran or the Torah is to not vote for him. But if a Jewish president should ever be elected, and he practices his faith, he has a right to do so....and to speak of it...whether you and others like it or not. If you can, please name me one president who didn't have a religious affilation to some religion. I'm not aware of any. It's our history, it's the way America has been since it's founding. Things are changing yes, and just as I said it's my belief that the 'silent majority' is beginning to speak out about how they'd like to see a return to faith. If most agree, it will happen. If they don't, it won't. But that's one of the many things that's great about our country. Choice....rights....
posted on March 27, 2003 06:08:07 PM new
::Yes, but see they have a right to be on TV and as long as they get funding for their 'causes' that's their right. People who don't like it, like me, just don't watch it. So it annoys you. It's their constitutional right. [hoping not to be coming across as sarcastic in my posts because of my word usage.] ::
Oh no, I don't think they should be taken off TV, absolutely not. They povide much to much fodder for sarcasm and mockery - I would miss those opportuities. I especially like the700 Club Romper Roomesque calling out of dieases where the sufferer is npt just seen by the little man in the electronic box, but is healed with his assistance. Now see, that is what I call "Must Mock TV".
posted on March 27, 2003 07:49:25 PM new
Linda & Near, yes, I guess you could say I'm anti-religion but I think I'm still entitled to be curious. I believe in God, but in a different way than what's taught in the Bible.
I think that a person that's running a country should be inert about his religion (if he has one) because it might sway his decision making, that's all.
Neon -
[ edited by kraftdinner on Mar 27, 2003 07:52 PM ]
posted on March 27, 2003 07:50:56 PM newSo many appear to be threatened in some way, by those who hold religious beliefs..
I'm sure many are, but please don't take the argument that anyone who believes in the complete separation of church and state is by definition un-religious.
... that they have very actively worked to surpress the rights of others
I know of no movement which seeks to fiddle with an American citizens rights to " proudly show my religious convictions to the world" in a church, at the homes of friends and family, at meetings, demonstrations, on the street corner, or anywhere else the public is free to congregate.A government sponsored institution like a school however, is not the appropriate venue to proselytize faith.This country is at least 75% nominally Christian by population, not decree. I seriously doubt that 3/4 of this country's citizens are in any danger of losing their rights to profess their faith in an appropriate, non political manner.The quarter that aren't however, run the risk of having their rights abridged at any time. Besides, politicizing religion cheapens it, in my view.
Hanging up the Ten Commandments in a classroom is proselytizing. It is not a generically nice document which almost any "good" person should be able to agree with. It is a religious document, and placing it on a classroom wall tells students that if they do not accept it, there is something inherently wrong with their belief systems. I'm all for religion, whatever you want to believe. Politicizing it is what I am opposed to.
[ edited by profe51 on Mar 27, 2003 07:51 PM ]
posted on March 27, 2003 08:02:53 PM new
KD - With all due respect, what you 'believe' and what our constitutional rights are are two different things. What you 'feel or judge' to be inappropriate doesn't matter. His rights to free speech speech and to practice his religion freely are granted under our constititon.
posted on March 27, 2003 08:23:52 PM new
That was a funny link gravid. But how do you explain whole countries that are FULL of religious fanatics? Mass hysteria?
posted on March 27, 2003 08:38:56 PM newI'm sure many are, but please don't take the argument that anyone who believes in the complete separation of church and state is by definition un-religious. I don't profe. But what I do see are issues that fall in the 'gray' areas you all are so fond of mentioning. Like being told one can't wear a t-shirt that has a religious statement on it....because it might offend another. To be told to take a Christian cross necklace off because it might offend someone. Being told you can't say quiet prayer while in school. To not be allowed to meet on school grounds with others who wish to fellowship with one another....when not forcing others to join in. Our constitutional rights don't stop at the door of any school.
... that they have very actively worked to supress the rights of others Well...we just see this differently. IMO, they have been for years....and are continuing to do so.
I know of no movement which seeks to fiddle with an American citizens rights to " proudly show my religious convictions to the world" in a church, at the homes of friends and family, at meetings, demonstrations, on the street corner, or anywhere else the public is free to congregate. Not true. Take the Nativity figurines in public places. They've been out at Christmas time since god knows how long. Now they offend...so little by little they are being forced to be removed. I could go on and on.
And profe you qualify 'WHERE' they are allowed to do this. I'd ask that you show me in our constitution where it says exactly where one can practice their religious beliefs and where they can't. It doesn't. Only the liberals have been making these decisions, setting these limitations, and imo that's why those on the right are beginning to speak out about it. It's always been my understanding we, as American's are free to practice them anywhere....not just where the liberals say it's okay.
A government sponsored institution like a school however, is not the appropriate venue to proselytize faith. Again, you're qualifying the issue. There is a difference between proselytizing and practicing one's religion. I am speaking of the latter. This is where the debate comes in. School prayer was sponsored when I was in school. So was saying the pledge. Then those who didn't feel it should be forced on anyone worked to change that. Okay...no one is forced to do either. But, just as in smoking example I gave, now we have those who want both totally removed so that no one can pray except in the areas THEY feel are appropriate. My argument is that no where in our constitution does it set limits as to where one can practice their freedom of religion. That's why we have these debates, that's why this and similar issues end up on the door step of our Surpreme Court....because we're not in agreement, because our constitution doesn't state all these limits.
This country is at least 75% nominally Christian by population, not decree. I seriously doubt that 3/4 of this country's citizens are in any danger of losing their rights to profess their faith in an appropriate, non political manner. Sure and some here believe we have no reason to worry about socialists gaining ground in their political wishes for our country either. Not true. When we don't defend our 'rights' we lose them.
Hanging up the Ten Commandments in a classroom is proselytizing. It is not a generically nice document which almost any "good" person should be able to agree with. It is a religious document, and placing it on a classroom wall tells students that if they do not accept it, there is something inherently wrong with their belief systems. [ADDING/EDITING] Something wrong with their belief systems. Just like those who oppose gay behavior being spoken about/ask to be accepted as 'normal' when most people don't agree and don't want to see their children taught this? Are their belief systems wrong? Who gets to decide all this..the liberals? I don't see it that way. I just see it as another form of diversity that everyone on the left seems to approve of and tell others to accept. But for some reason, the religious right doesn't appear to be welcome in that 'diversity'. Our children are asked to accept and learn about other religions in school....like read and learn about the Koran. Well, try that with the Bible and you'll be hung. If it's right for one, it's right for all. Not all except....
On the Ten Commandments etc. ...I've always been on the fence on this issue. Part of me believes that it does no harm. Don't like it, don't agree with it then just don't read/look at it. There are a lot of signs out in public I don't like, I find offensive or inappropriate for young children. Because I believe I'm in the minority, I dont' think I have the the right to have them removed when the majority appear to find them acceptable. The 10 Commmandments have been and still are in tons of our country's government offices as they have, for years been in our schools. But those who want it removed say they do so because it might offend others. Well my argument on the other side of my proverbial fence is that IF 3/4 of our nation agrees it's not wrong then why should the other 1/4 get to say it is and be the one's to have their wishes honored? Just like if in America 3/4 of the population vote for an issue, we don't not inact it because the 1/4 didn't agree with it? No, majority pretty much rules.
So to me when you say no one is 'working' to supress the rights of some to practice their religion in total freedom, I see way too many issues where it is being chipped at, little by little....and some are now saying STOP!
Edited to try and fix spell and to add the 'belief system' being wrong statement.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 27, 2003 08:58 PM ]
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