posted on March 30, 2003 10:41:34 AM new
Helen - Come on....let's work this out. Answer more of my above questions, one at a time if you'd like, and then maybe I can show why I have formed the opinion about you that I have.
To be clear here....I'm not saying you have stated, "I support Saddam, I believe everything he has ever done was right." But in every post you've made, you EXCUSE all Saddams behaviors....and blast your president. You blame Bush for the actions he has taken, but you lay NO blame at the feet of Saddam. None.
On the Clinton issue. I've posted at least two or three times, direct statements/quotes that clinton has made [when he was president-1998 and when he DID bomb Iraq] saying exactly the same words that Bush used when giving his reasons he felt we needed to go to war. "Saddam needs to be removed, needs to be disarmed, he is a threat to our country and the people of the world." And when you've slammed bush and I've asked you to explain how you see it as different, you won't answer. You won't even bend the tiny amount to admit that Bush and Clinton were in agreement it needed to happen.
posted on March 30, 2003 10:52:16 AM new
Bye, NearTheSea,
You seem to believe that because I try to understand the aberrant tactics of the Iraq military under the invasion of US military that I am somehow defending Saddam. That doesn't make sense, NearTheSea.
posted on March 30, 2003 11:03:08 AM new
I'll answer that. Because you're always siding with everything Saddam's administration does, every action they take you make excuses for while, at the same time, you blast the lack of what your own country does. Or blame your own country for being the reason all the poor children in Iraq are suffering.
[before the war]
I'd sure like to hear your justification as to why Saddam would now be against the UN Oil-For-Food program starting up again. I know you agree the people of Iraq need food and medical supplies [because you've said so]. Is this how you see he's taking care of his people? [shows he cares about them]
posted on March 30, 2003 11:08:16 AM new
I asked, Where, Linda did I excuse the horrible behavior of Saddam??? Please back up your allegations
I asked, Where did I address Saddam's behavior "since the war began. Please copy and paste.
Now you state....
To be clear here....I'm not saying you have stated, "I support Saddam, I believe everything he has ever done was right." But in every post you've made, you EXCUSE all Saddams behaviors....and blast your president. You blame Bush for the actions he has taken, but you lay NO blame at the feet of Saddam. None.
You haven't posted one single comment that I made to support your allegation stating., "Helen - See...you excuse the horrible behavior of Saddam
You haven't posted one single comment that I made about Saddam's behavior "since the war began"
Now you say "let's work it out".
Linda, It seems that I'm not the liar here.
About Clinton. I just indicated in my previous post that I recognize that Clinton and Bush are in agreement that Saddam should be under control. Nearly everybody in the world believes that. I also believe that Bush should be controlled and much of the world would agree with me on that.
posted on March 30, 2003 11:20:03 AM new
Now, my question is how do I EXCUSE Saddam Hussein. Is it your opinion based on the fact that I don't discuss Iraq and Saddam as much as I discuss our country and Bush?
You must be accusing me based on omission of evidence. LOL!
posted on March 30, 2003 11:30:52 AM new
Helen, I have to say that I asked you a direct question two pages ago and you ignored it, Linda asked you the question again, again you ignored it, lets go for three...
I am asking a direct question, yes or no. Do you excuse Iraqi soldiers for targeting their own citizens for death as those civilian citizens attept to leave areas of impending battle?
posted on March 30, 2003 11:41:36 AM new
Helen - I only have to point to your statements in this thread to show where you have made excuses for the way Saddam treats his people. I only have to point to this thread to where you wouldn't answer my questions nor neonmania's.
Yes, I could go through past posts searching for where you've blasted the actions of your government, where you've made excuses for the actions of Saddam. But maybe you could do that same search. Review your own words. Do you really think I'm the only one here who sees your posts this way? If you do...you're just fooling yourself.
If you can't see how you justify everything he does, when the different issues are brought up, while at the same time, blaming your country for everything we've been quilty of causing to happen or not doing the right thing, according to Helen....then you'll never see it.
You, appear to me, to deny that you've blamed the problems Iraqi citizens have on your own country [again, before the war starter], rather than on Saddam's actions. He builds his palaces and you blame the US because his people are suffering. He wouldn't 'come clean' to the UN when given a 'last, last chance'. No blame did you put on his actions.
You continue to not answer the current questions about how you explain Saddam not allowing his people to receive food and medical aid even though the UN has approved restarting the Oil For Food program...you avoid answering my asking for me to do something. When just answering would be so easy. Wouldn't it? This is why I'm saying it's your pattern. Not to be a smart as$....but because it IS a pattern with you.
Your statement in this thread It is blatantly false to say, "They have little, if any, regard for their peoples lives or health." And in this statement/thread you accuse me of making a false statement about his actions. You're an educated woman, you're well read...and yet you excuse Saddam's past and current actions.
posted on March 30, 2003 11:52:35 AM newI am asking a direct question, yes or no. Do you excuse Iraqi soldiers for targeting their own citizens for death as those civilian citizens attept to leave areas of impending battle?
neonmania As I have stated several times, the aberrant tactics by the Iraqi soldiers is understandable since they are under attack by the US military in a desperate situation. I would excuse it during such a desperate situation in war but at no other time.
posted on March 30, 2003 11:52:39 AM new
What badgering! I too, would like to see where Helen said she supported Hussein and all that other stuff... surprise!... she's never said that - ever.
posted on March 30, 2003 12:03:03 PM new
Thanks, KD
Linda, It's really unfair to accuse me of saying things that I have not said especially when you are unable to back your statements up.
If I were you, I would be embarrassed.
People here know me. They know that I don't support Saddam Hussein and they know that I support our troops. Those that do not know me and believe such nonsense based on what you are falsely alledging will soon learn that you are wrong. You are making disparaging remarks about my character that cannot be proved. If I were you, I would stop it right now.
posted on March 30, 2003 12:17:57 PM new
"As I have stated several times, the aberrant tactics by the Iraqi soldiers is understandable since they are under attack by the US military in a desperate situation. I would excuse it during such a desperate situation in war but at no other time."
So thats a "yes" in response to neonmania's question.
I consider myself a fairly open minded individual and have just wanted to make sure I understood your opinion on this issue.
I can understand why Saddam's regime is resorting to the tactics we are seeing regarding the treatment of Iraqi civilians because its a tactic entirely consistent with the kind of regime the man has run for years. I think one would be hard pressed to make a case that Saddam makes decisions based on whats best for the Iraqi people. Clearly he makes decisions on what he thinks is best for saving his regime and if slaughtering his own citizens or forcing them to fight or not allowing them to flee harms way helps his regime, he does it without pause.
My opinion is that there is no excuse for that kind of behavior - not even in response to an invading army. Murdering your own people and not allowing them to protect their families by fleeing a war zone cannot be excused and in my opinion just brings to the forefront the fact that Saddam needs to be removed from power.
posted on March 30, 2003 12:20:17 PM newMy opinion is that there is no excuse for that kind of behavior - not even in response to an invading army. Murdering your own people and not allowing them to protect their families by fleeing a war zone cannot be excused and in my opinion just brings to the forefront the fact that Saddam needs to be removed from power.
Fiset, I couldn't have said it better myself...
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
Under normal circumstances there is no excuse. But during an invasion, under fire with your battle position compromised by fleeing citizens ...in such desperate circumstances can you at least understand the occurrence of such aberrant behavior?
Maybe they see the fleeing citizens as possibly a danger to the group as a whole.
That's just my opinion
Helen
ed to address poster
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 30, 2003 12:28 PM ]
posted on March 30, 2003 12:37:04 PM new
Hey, guess what? You won! The war has already started, so it doesn't really matter what anyone says. It's been agreed that Saddam is a bad guy and needs to be removed. In the meantime, soldiers on every side are being killed. That's what Helen wanted to avoid by not going to war. Is that so wrong? This war's name has been changed so many times it's confusing. The war to oust Saddam has now become the war to libertate the Iraqi's, just like the war against Osama became the war to liberate Afghanistan. IMHO, Osama and Hussein have nothing to do with these wars, they're just the catalyst.
posted on March 30, 2003 12:58:26 PM new
Kraftdinner - No, I didn't win. To have won would have meant this issue was worked out between myself and Helen. To come to a better understanding, to change my mind about how I perceive her posts. It appears that's not possible.
And being for or against this war, wasn't what this has been all about. This started long before the war ever started.
posted on March 30, 2003 01:28:56 PM new
::Under normal circumstances there is no excuse. But during an invasion, under fire with your battle position compromised by fleeing citizens ...in such desperate circumstances can you at least understand the occurrence of such aberrant behavior? ::
Just out of curiosity, what oother countries have bombed and shot their fleeing citizens? I'm assuming that if it is acceptable and justifiable, someone surely must have done it before. I don't recall hearing of any such instances of England doing it when they were going thru dily air attacks, or any other country. If I am mistaken, please correct me.
::Maybe they see the fleeing citizens as possibly a danger to the group as a whole. ::
Yes, because without all those women and children the soldiers have much fewers people to hide behind. Isn't the whole point of fighting off an invasion to protect the populous?
As we hear more stories of soldiers telling men that they will join the fight or their ffamily will be raped and/or murdered how much longer will you be able to justify this?
I was staunchly not for this war, I felt that there were better ways to get rid of Saddam but always I felt that Saddam and his regime needed to be removed because of an doctrine of behavior which has only been intensified in the past two weeks. They are not sacrificing themselves in the name of patriotism, they are sacrificing their people.
I fervently wish that the news agencies that are interviewing theIraqi embassador to the UN would do so in prime time so that more can hear his words straight from his mouth. More over, I wish that people could hear his dancing and hestitating around questions of Sadams current status. His statement sare along the lines of" " believe him to be alive based on the tapes of him being seen on TV " ... then comes a very big but underplayed BUT..... "This is not about one man now, this is about a country. This guy either knows or believes him to be dead. As for all accusations made by the US, allies, or international agencies against his countries actions... even he knows they are indefensible. Rather than trying to defend them as neccessary actions of war he states that they are all puppets of the CIA (Iincluding World Watch and Amnesty Internatinal) and that these are all false accusations, that as a lawyer he will not believe anything until he sees photographs of the actual action, eye witness accounts are not accurate. Film of the aftermath is manipulated to put his country in bad light. Problem is, his delivery is laughably bad and it is clear that he himself does not believe his own words.
posted on March 30, 2003 01:45:53 PM new
Helen,You've been a sandwich between two posters,when one gets tired another jumps in.
You have give them life Helen.LOL
Then you have someone that is suppose to agree with your side,or has said in the past they did,to question your ever word.
Yes by golly we will free those Iraqs,the same way we freed those children in Waco,with the same mindset,the same old methods used over and over.
posted on March 30, 2003 02:04:02 PM new
Helen, without any insults to you, you did say
neonmania As I have stated several times, the aberrant tactics by the Iraqi soldiers is understandable since they are under attack by the US military in a desperate situation. I would excuse it during such a desperate situation in war but at no other time.
As others have pointed out, and I tried to page(s) ago, if our country, here, this American soil, your house, your town, if it were invaded, our gov't, our leader, our military would never use civilians as the Iraqi army or guard is doing right now.
So it is in no way Understandable as you say. No way.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 30, 2003 02:32:28 PM new
Hey, junquemama
LOL! you're sharp!
neon, you said,
"Donny, nope, not the Syrian bus, it was during one of my nights of insomnia, I was watching NBC and one of the reporters, (I want to say it was a woman on a phone but don't quote me on that ) talked about soldiers firing at groups of people attempting to leave the city.
The fact is that we do not know the circumstances. Even you are not sure what really happened.
For all we know, an entire city might have been imperiled by the fleeing civilians. Moral code on a battleground is difficult to determine or enforce. If we held soldiers to a normal code, they would not be able to shoot the enemy.
Helen
ed. to add ubb.
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 30, 2003 02:45 PM ]
posted on March 30, 2003 03:24:15 PM new
"...in such desperate circumstances can you at least understand the occurrence of such aberrant behavior?"
Helen:
I understand the point you're trying to make here and to answer your question, yes, I understand the occurrence of such aberrant behavior. In fact, I'm not at all surprised by it given the brutal history of the Saddam regime. I think where you and I differ is that even though I understand the behavior (given Saddam's actions in the past) I can in no way excuse it. Even if fleeing civilians in some way compromises the regime's goal (and I think it does since clearly Saddam wants to put civilians between his army and ours) it cannot be excused.
Thanks for the response. Obviously, this issue (and many other issues surrounding this war) have brought out a great deal of emotion from everyone. But frankly, its that emotion that keeps me coming back to read.
posted on March 30, 2003 03:46:15 PM new
The fact is that we do not know the circumstances. Even you are not sure what really happened. ::
Helen, please do not twist my words. I said I did not remember the individual reporter that was giving the report at 4am three days ago.
::Then you have someone that is suppose to agree with your side,or has said in the past they did,to question your ever word. ::
Junque, if that was direced at me, please allow me to clarify my position.
I was against this war because I was against unneccesary death (and economic expenditures). Considering that, do you really think I am going to support the other side committing murder against their citizens who choose the attempt to leave an impending battlefield? Being against the war does not make me sympathetic to Saddam or his soldiers, in fact if you read my old posts I aways stated that Saddam was a madman and had to go.
I am not quetioing Helens every word, I asked a direct simply question yesterday which was pointedly avoided so I asked it again. She has now answered. Yes I find her answer niave and while not anti-american as others have accused, more along the lines of appologist but that is her line of thought, I jus wanted it claarified by her.
Helen and Donny have both now stated that the killing of fleeing innocents is apparenty and accepted doctrine yet no one has given an example of this strategy being utiized in prior wars. I'm quite sure that other civilians have attempted to leave citties as they were approached, surely if this is so acceptable someone else has shelled them a they fled. I'm just curious as to who.
It's your answer that's naive, neon. When you take a soldier, remove his privilege to criticize and think so that he will follow orders, kill without flinching and then put him on a battlefield to make split second decisions under fire, I don't see how you can fault a guy under those circumstances no matter WHO his leader is for making a mistake.
Remember, I am not discussing Saddam Hussein. I am discussing a guy on a battlefield. It could be a Greek warrior. When under seige in a threatening arena, in desperation, people will sometimes make decisions that are not acceptable and mistakes that should be forgiven
I appreciate your answer. Actually, I wasn't supporting Saddam. I was just discussing any soldier on any battlefield. Under such threatening circumstances, I believe that soldiers will, in desperation, make mistakes.
It's simply my opinion that such mistakes should be forgiven. People don't normally shoot civilians. This applies to people in every country, all over the world. America doesn't have a corner on good moral behavior.
People in Iraq, just like people in America or any country you can name all just want to pursue happiness and the chance to live with their friends and families in peace.
posted on March 30, 2003 04:30:09 PM new
This is EXACTLY what you wrote. I NEVER intentionally twist anybody's words.
Straightforward could be my middle name.
"Donny, nope, not the Syrian bus, it was during one of my nights of insomnia, I was watching NBC and one of the reporters, (I want to say it was a woman on a phone but don't quote me on that ) talked about soldiers firing at groups of people attempting to leave the city.
You didn't know diddly squat about what really happened in this situation. If you want to argue about hypothetical issues then say so.
Helen
sp.ed.
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 30, 2003 04:43 PM ]
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