posted on March 31, 2003 07:00:12 AM new
I might mention in contrast the right to petition the government for grievences. Apparently the right to not hear does not apply to officials if they have to accept petitions of complaint. Sad to say the fellows who framed that right probably didn't think they had to specifically say the officials must actually consider the grievences. They had some silly idea that reasonable men would do so.
It was hard to predict the future and see there would be such a shortage of reasonable men instead of those who would think themselves so powerful they are above above considering any other voice.
posted on March 31, 2003 07:22:02 AM new
If I am enjoying a St. Patirck's Day Parade, I do have the right not to see anti-war sentiment, or to have to "listen" to some speech by someone giving aid and comfort to the enemy... I am sorry if my being an AMERICAN is too much for you fellas, but you know what I have defended your right to that free speech, I still think you have all the free speech you want, as long as it doesn't infringe on my freedoms also... and stopping me from getting home at night is one of those freedoms...
But getting back to the topic, it got lost somewhere, but I said fine ALL protestors... if they break the law... it just seems anti-war protestors are doing it the most..
Gravid, politicians are elected by the "people" they do not have a choice but to listen to inane chatter from whomever, however I am not so naive as to believe they "vote" for their constituents all the time.
In this case most polls showed over 50% supported action against Saddam, so now you are saying that Democracy doesn't work because the Pressident sided with the Majority?
Free thinking is fine, go and see how you can improve some of the social ills that plague this country, how about seeing how we can close the borders tighter, how we can find an alternative to gasoline for our cars... seems to me that most "free thinkers" would rather think that Uncle Sam is out to get them and that CIA has crosshairs on them at every moment or are against society moving forward for one reason or another...
Terrorism is now a fact of life for the US, to deny that would be wrong, but to say that you would rather have more WTC's than to take the fight to them, somehow just doesn't make sense, unless you have some agenda against the government.
When city governments must spend thousands of dollars to keep the "peace" that supposed "peace" protestors break... why shouldn't they be made to pay for it...
I don't remember any civil rights marches vandalising property or infringing on the rights of others... they did it peacefully and with civility toward others.
posted on March 31, 2003 08:20:06 AM new
“In this case most polls showed over 50% supported action against Saddam, so now you are saying that Democracy doesn't work because the Pressident sided with the Majority?”
You call that a democracy? “polls” Who did the CNN poll, the PNAC gang?
posted on March 31, 2003 08:38:36 AM new
Austbounty
As you are not a citizen of the US and from past posts have shown your loyalties... I hardly care what you think...
posted on March 31, 2003 09:53:02 AM new
Imaging if you can...or care to, our founding fathers (No, 12-pole, not Marx, Stalin and Lenin. Those are yours. America's founding fathers!) if they had to obtain a "permit" before they could speak to the public under the Liberty tree.
We would all still be speaking English.....
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
posted on March 31, 2003 09:59:27 AM new
smenkveld...
It was descibed and liked to in much earlier threads which have been long buried here.
basically it is a Neo-Conservative organization with a agenda.
In a Nutshell:
America has the best system of government(Democracy overseen by wealthy corporations with elections "adjusted" where necessary)
It is so good other countries MUST adopt it (with our corporations overseeing it)
Those who refuse will be coerced or invaded and forced to adopt it.
First step, the Middle East must be conquered.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 31, 2003 10:00 AM ]
posted on March 31, 2003 10:10:59 AM new
Yes smenkveld
...always remember....they're out to 'get' us.....not to promote our republic, nor our democracy...but to 'take over' the world with our outrageous way of life....it's been soooo unsuccessful. And since only a very limited number of citizens, only the 'elite', benefit from our capitalism, you KNOW it's got to really be terrible. [said tongue in cheek]
posted on March 31, 2003 10:36:13 AM new
Yeah Linda- I think the REAL reason we declared war on Iraq is because we were afraid that too many Americans were going to leave and go live in that wonderfully governed country Iraq.
We are bent on spreading freedom, and material wealth throughout the world. What gall !!
posted on March 31, 2003 11:00:34 AM new
There seems to be some confusion regarding permits and free speech. If I want to walk outside my office building right now and stand on Park Avenue and shout my feelings about this war, nobody would stop me. If, on the other hand, I advertise a rally and invite a few thousand of my closest friends to join me outside my building, I would expect I would have to get some kind of permit. Does anyone really have a problem with that?
I've never taken free speech to mean I can do whatever I want, wherever I want regardless of city laws. I am free to say whatever I want, sure, but I am not free to do so in a manner that disrupts the lives of others in the city. Should I decide to hold a rally, I will do so in a lawful manner and obtain the proper permits.
As for our founding fathers and how they would react to permits. C'mon. Thats just silly. I doubt our founding fathers could imagine the complexities of our modern cities any easier then they could imagine women voting or a land with no slaves.
posted on March 31, 2003 11:43:17 AM new
The US Supreme Court supports your view fiset. There can be time/place and manner restrictions on communicative free speech gatherings, there can also be a shut down of the gathering if the speakers are inciting the crowd to imminent danger, or the crowd becomes dangerous. Not all conduct is considered expressive enough to be speech either.
There is not now and there never has been an absolute unencumbered freedom of anything in this country.
posted on March 31, 2003 12:35:08 PM new
Perfect example, In Pittsburgh this past weekend, anti-war protestors had a PERMIT for a rally in a local park... they took it upon themselves to march down the street blocking traffic... luckily the police had their fun and peppered sprayed a few and arrested 3... hope they get some heavy fines.
So now that is law abiding citizens for ya... get the proper permits, nobody would of said a thing, they themselves decided to bring trouble to them.
mlecher, I served with distinction in the US Military, exactly where did you get your training?
Marx, Stalin nor Lenin were required reading but as much as you mention them, they seem to be heroes of yours...
posted on March 31, 2003 12:52:19 PM newmlecher, I served with distinction in the US Military, exactly where did you get your training?
Shoulda' worn your helmet more often to prevent that head damage.
I was in Army Military Intelligence and yes it is an Oxymoron in peacetime. The unit I retired out of specialized in Iraq Farsi language(Ft. Stewart, 124th MI Bn.). But that was all a million years ago...
As for Marx, Stalin and lenin...in observing your ranting and complaints and "solutions" you embrace their ideals heart and soul. I only know about them so I can recognize pinkos like you, the ones who erode the rights of others in the name of "SECURITY" and "IT IS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD"
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 31, 2003 12:55 PM ]
