posted on April 5, 2003 06:14:40 PM new
Iraq gives up its grim secrets
Abandoned warehouse is a tomb for hundreds of tortured and executed Iraqis
From Paul Harris in Al Zubayr, Southern Iraq
THE coffins are laid out in neat rows in an abandoned warehouse. In each lies a crumpled bag of bones, old and dusty but still recognisably human. Out of the open end of one sack, a skull can be seen buried in the fragments of skeleton.
Its eye sockets are empty. Its teeth are smashed. Two ribs point out like accusing fingers.
The proof lies in a cargo container nearby. Its metal door hangs open and inside are pages and pages of files. Each sheaf of notes contains a picture of a man or woman. Each and every one has been shot in the head. Their wounds are mangled and gaping. Many of them barely look human any more as the anonymous photographer chronicled their dead faces. It is a horror almost beyond words.
It is hard not to look at the black-and-white photographs -- two for each victim -- and wince. Yet each was a brother, a father or a son; or a mother, a daughter or a sister. Each had a past and hopes for a future, yet each ended here, in this dry and dusty hall of the dead. There must be at least 200 of them in the plywood coffins, roughly hammered together by a hurried carpenter. All of them are in bags, jumbled together in sad piles of remains.
'Whoever they are, they have been desecrated in their death. No one should ever treat the dead like this,' said Sgt Simon Brain, a veteran of tours in Bosnia, who has seen places in the Balkans that look similar to this. 'That is in two countries now that I have seen mass graves,' he added with a shake of his head.
There are signs of torture too. Outside the warehouse stands a wall. It is dotted in the centre with a spray of bullet holes. Nearly all of them are at head height. There is a ditch behind it. If anyone was shot against the wall, their blood would have drained cleanly away. In another warehouse, a dozen tiny concrete cells have been built of breeze blocks inside the hangar. In some of them, portraits of Saddam Hussein stare from the grey walls. In several, an iron pole has been hung from the roof. Dangling from it are cruel, rusting metal hooks. They are ideal torture chambers.
'We can't speculate on what this is until an investigation,' a British military spokesman said. But one officer, speaking privately and looking in shock at the warehouse, was more blunt. 'Just look at those photos. Look at this place.
'People were being tortured and executed here,' he said.
The warehouse has now been declared off limits after being discovered by British soldiers of the Third Regiment of the Royal Horse Artillery yesterday morning. An investigation is now to be launched into exactly who lies in the coffins. War crimes investigators have been alerted to the discovery and the building sealed off and guarded.
Though it is hard to imagine who would want to go inside. The warehouse lies on a sprawling and abandoned military base on the outskirts of Az Zubayr, a small town near Basra. Nobody lives nearby. It can only be reached by travelling on rough and pitted mud causeways that traverse a lunar landscape contaminated by oil leaks from nearby refineries. Multi-coloured slicks soak into the dust of the drained salt marshes as they bake in the midday sun. There is no sign of life apart from the stray dogs that swarm over this part of Iraq.
The base itself is a mess. Most of the buildings have been trashed or looted and destroyed over the previous decade or so of war and sanctions. There are holes in many of the buildings and roofs missing from some of the barrack huts, yet the warehouse of bones was locked and intact.
There is little doubt that the bones are at least several years old. No flesh remains on the long brown leg and arm bones or bits of rib. Only a few tufts of tough black hair lie scattered on the floor, where dogs have tugged at a few of the bags and spilled their grim contents on the unforgiving concrete.
But there is no doubt the base was inhabited until only a few weeks ago. Among the buildings are Iraqi army shirts still in their bags, new gas mask respirators, signal huts for an artillery unit and maps with military drawings upon them. Yet the Iraqi soldiers who were living here were literally living beside the corpses of hundreds of people.
Exactly who they were is so far a mystery. But there are a few clues. Some of the bags are made of plastic and inside them can be seen a few pieces of military equipment. The green belt of the Iraqi army is plainly visible in several of the sacks.
Were they soldiers suspected of disloyalty in recent years? Were they Shia rebels from 1991, many of whom were in the army? More than 50,000 Shia were killed by the forces of Saddam Hussein in their doomed revolt. Are these some of their corpses? In most of the bags there is no trace of clothing. Just bones.
In one sack a single photo lies. It is a simple ID card. On it a middle-aged man stares out. He has black hair, a long face and a drooping moustache. In life he would perhaps have looked pensive. But lying, half-covered by his own dusty remains, the man pictured within looks sad and forlorn. He looks regretful for the life stolen from him. A splotch of bloodstain on the corner of the card is reminder enough of the brutality of how all his hopes died.
It is hard to stay in the warehouse long. In one corner, empty coffins are stacked four or five high. Whoever was doing this grim work was stopped before they finished their task. That is a small mercy but no respite for those already dead.
Inside the hangar, the air is still and thick with dust. It hangs close around the clothes and almost makes one retch to think what is being breathed into the lungs of those who have ventured inside. It is a relief to leave such a charnel house. Outside, the sun is shining over southern Iraq. There is a stiff breeze that blows some of the bone dust away. But inside the horrors remain, testimony to the crimes of a regime that is itself now being killed.
Yet these are not isolated horrors. Last night allegations of the torture and murder of dozens of children by Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party also came to light, with bodies discovered hanging from street lighting.
The killings were carried out after the party headquarters in Basra was bombed last week, said some Iraqi women, one of whom's niece had been killed. Families believed to have been aiding coalition forces were targeted.
Interpreter Vanessa Lough, formerly attached to the UN and based in Basra said: 'In one street alone they said three children could be seen hanging from the lamp posts, and around the corner one child lay burnt on the ground.
'The women said some of the children's bodies are now being held in the city's hospital mortuary.'
posted on April 5, 2003 11:10:32 PM new
Yes, the US belongs in Iraq. What was pointed out in this article is a modern day Nazi Germany. I saw the news footage of the plywood coffins on CNN.
Also, on CNN. The Special Forces Unit that rescued the female Solider were also the ones who recovered the 8 dead US Soliders. CNN told the story of how they dug for their bodies with their bare hands to find them. They are ABSOLUTE HEROS.
posted on April 5, 2003 11:23:04 PM new
Here is a picture from Reuters.
Human remains, along with coffins and photos of dead bodies, are seen at an abandoned Iraqi base near the city of Basra in southern Iraq, April 5, 2003. British forces said they had found the remains of as many as 200 people in the barracks and they were sending in forensic experts to investigate. Photo by Pool/Reuters
posted on April 6, 2003 04:36:07 AM new
Wait, let me catch up!
1. Stop pretending it's about WOMD or banned
weapons (haven't been used, and can't find
any)
2. Stop pretending it's about about
liberating the Iraqi people (the ones we
haven't killed or injured are either
fighting us tooth and nail or wailing
about dead relatives)
3. Start pretending it's about guys so long
dead their bones are practically dust.
posted on April 6, 2003 06:20:17 AM new
Of course we belong there, removing Saddam's regime was long overdue. I think our military is doing a wonderful job.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 6, 2003 09:59:30 AM new
War Dead Found, 15 Years Later
TEHRAN, Iran, April 6, 2003
Iran has asked that the bodies be returned over the border. (AP)
Iran and Iraq's eight-year war left about a million soldiers dead or wounded.
(CBS) Bodies found by British forces near Basra in southern Iraq were Iranian soldiers killed during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, state-run Tehran radio reported Sunday.
British forces said Saturday they found hundreds of boxes containing human remains in a warehouse near Zubayr. They appeared to be the remains of people who had died some time ago — not in the current fighting.
"We officially call on the International Committee of the Red Cross to carry out their responsibility and immediately take the bodies from the invading forces and hand them over to the Islamic Republic of Iran," the radio quoted Gen. Mirfeisal Baqerzadeh, the head of Iran's Committee for Searching for the Missing in Action, as saying.
Baqerzadeh, who said an estimated 100 bodies were discovered at a military hospital near Basra, appeared to be referring to the same discovery, though the details he gave differed somewhat.
Baqerzadeh said the bodies had been located during joint Iranian-Iraqi search missions in recent months near Basra, Zubayr and Faw but added that war and what he called the procrastination of the Iraqi government delayed their repatriation.
Iran and Iraq have exchanged thousands of prisoners and remains of dead soldiers since the 1980-88 war ended with a U.N.-brokered cease-fire. The eight-year war left about a million soldiers dead or wounded.
Soldiers' remains are sometimes discovered years after a conflict has ended. Researchers in Vietnam and Korea still occasionally find the remains of American servicemen killed in regional conflicts.
• Troops Keep Up Baghdad Blitz
• History Shows U.S. Faces Risks
• War Rallies March On
• NBC Newsman Dies In Iraq
• War Dead Found, 15 Years Later
• New Details Of POW's Daring Rescue
• U.S. Soldiers' Final Homecoming
• U.S. Crowding Iraqi Skies
posted on April 6, 2003 10:06:51 AM new
donny - these atrocities are ONE of the MANY reasons we belong in Iraq.
junque - the remains mentioned in the article show bullet holes to the skull. Sounds more like POWs were executed upon capture instead of being killed in battle...
and what about.....
[i]"Yet these are not isolated horrors. Last night allegations of the torture and murder of dozens of children by Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party also came to light, with bodies discovered hanging from street lighting.
The killings were carried out after the party headquarters in Basra was bombed last week, said some Iraqi women, one of whom's niece had been killed. Families believed to have been aiding coalition forces were targeted.
Interpreter Vanessa Lough, formerly attached to the UN and based in Basra said: 'In one street alone they said three children could be seen hanging from the lamp posts, and around the corner one child lay burnt on the ground.[/i]?
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
posted on April 6, 2003 10:18:38 AM new
wgm,you just answered your own question.
The killings were carried out after the party headquarters in Basra was bombed last week, said some Iraqi women, one of whom's niece had been killed. Families believed to have been aiding coalition forces were targeted.
Helping the coalition got them killed,If the coalition were not there,the question would be,Were they killed anyway?
It doesnt matter the Country you live in,If you dont go along with the program,you are set up for attack.
posted on April 6, 2003 10:31:35 AM new
no, I didn't - I can't justify the torturing and murder of children under ANY condition. This is not an isolated incident, and is not limited to children.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
posted on April 6, 2003 10:33:34 AM new
wgm - Yes, [saying tongue-in-cheek-here] don't you understand?
Helping the coalition got them killed,If the coalition were not there,the question would be,Were they killed anyway? They complain when they don't see the Iraqi's welcoming us with open arms....because they judge we're not welcome. Even though we try to state it's because they know how Saddam is and they fear him.
Then when the Iraqi's do welcome us, support our being there, and are killed it's because WE'RE the bad guys. It's a no-win situation.
Those who will constantly belittle their own government and it's actions, but support the actions of Saddam continuing to remain in his position [read - we should have left him alone] are very hard to understand.
It doesnt matter the Country you live in,If you dont go along with the program,you are set up for attack. Uhhhhh BIG difference here. We don't kill those in our country for little or no reason, but that is Saddam's MO.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 6, 2003 10:47:16 AM new
"donny - these atrocities are ONE of the MANY reasons we belong in Iraq."
Well, wgm, there's an old truism that if someone gives you 1 reason, they're telling the truth, but when they give you several reasons, they're lying.
I've found that to be pretty much right, and even though I know it, I still find myself unable to stop at 1 b.s. reason when I'm lying... and the rationales for this war smacks of that.
This must be a bigger lie than I ever told, I don't usually get beyond giving 3 bogus reasons, and how many reasons do we have now, 8?
posted on April 6, 2003 11:24:04 AM newWell, wgm, there's an old truism that if someone gives you 1 reason, they're telling the truth, but when they give you several reasons, they're lying.
Ahhh so all your reasons for not being there means you are a liar donny?
posted on April 6, 2003 11:25:48 AM new
Yea, We should have waited longer. Maybe Saddam's regime could have murdered a million or more people in the time the UN needed. Maybe he could have passed on Chemical and Bio Toxins to the Terrorist groups (evidence already found).
When the WOMD are found, when the atrocities are proven You will find something else to belittle America about. That's a given!
We don't need no stinkin excuses for the war in Iraq. If you don't like it VOTE In the next election.
Maybe one of the socialist candidates will win. hahahahaha. (sometimes I just make myself laugh)
For whatever reason we're now in Iraqi, makes no difference. We are there. We'll do what has to be done.
I wish some of you could lose your freedoms. Maybe then you could understand what you have. What you take for granted.
I'm sure your all fine people with good hearts but only one mind set. That's too bad.
When your revolution comes you may be surprised as to just how small a group you are. A few professors, pseudo intellectuals, some Artcyfarcies, a larger group of welfare people. Did I forget anyone? Not the middle America you expect.
So in closing...Cast off your chains. B*tch and moan all you want, cause there's little if anything you will change. We the people are the majority.
posted on April 6, 2003 11:38:26 AM newYea, We should have waited longer. Maybe Saddam's regime could have murdered a million or more people in the time the UN needed. Maybe he could have passed on Chemical and Bio Toxins to the Terrorist groups (evidence already found)
Where? When? Chemicals and bio toxins,evidence already found?
posted on April 6, 2003 11:56:47 AM new
Well, drat, on the old Star Trek, that paradox made the super logical robots' fuses blow. Didn't seem to affect you any though.
posted on April 6, 2003 12:01:22 PM new
"And in Iraq's western desert, U.S. soldiers discovered what they believed was a training center for nuclear, chemical and biological warfare, Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks said"
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/33549.htm
posted on April 6, 2003 12:19:45 PM new
Donny - I'm confused..... I know of only two....
1) Iraq is part of the access of evil and the next logical step in our war on terrorism.
2) Saddam Hussein is a sadistic tyrant and the people of Iraqi should be freed from his follies of torture and domination.
If you take the rest of the reasons I have heard mentioned, they would qualify more as suppoting evidence of statements made in justification 1 or 2.
As far as justification #1 - I think someone forgot to look into the factors, events and idealology of what turns a happy go lucky 12 year old into an angry homocidal idealistc 23 year old. As opposed to putting a dent in terrorism, I think this course of action stands a much greater possibility of accomplishing the exact opposite. Facilitating the creation of the next generation of terrorists.
Justification #2 - I have a hard time argueing with that one.
That said - something needed to be done but we made a tremendous tactical error. We underestimated the national pride of the Iraqi people and we overestimated our image and reputation as internationally heros of truth and justice. At some level of our plan seemed to be the assumption that the Iraqi people were moving thru each day waiting only for our arrival to save them and that as soon as we arrived, the would come running into Mother Americas protective embrace as Uncle Sam and his helpers marched on to slay the evil monster.
We forgot that many Iraqis felt that we left them to at the mercy of the evil monster last time we were in the neighborhood and failed to land the killing blow. We ignored the possibility that they lost faith in us as they watched thousands of their neighbors slain by the evil monster as we pattd ourselves on the back for a battle well fought. We failed to consider that in the great balancing act of choosing between the devil at the door and the devil they knew, no matter how horrendous we may view that devil to be, they might opt for the familiar. We forgot that these are just people that will do whatever need be done to ensure that tomorrow comes for them and the ones they love and while they may wish in their heart of hearts for the courage to run and welcome us, they fear the consequences of a history relived and so play the game of wait and see.
The one thing I don't understand us overlooking is the heart and pride and love of country that would lead many to overlook the faults in order to protect with their dying breath that which is sacred to them...home.
Our country suffers from bitter political divisiveness, differing opinions regarding effectiveness, motives and actions of our leader and decisions being made by our lawmakers in the name of security but no matter how flawed or even evil each side sees the other, is there any doubt that we would rise up as one to protect our nation from a foreign invasion. How could it be that we failed to credit the Iraqi people with that same sense of pride and patriotism?
We should have enlisted the Kurds and curried the suppot of other Arab nations. The face of this war should not havehad blue eyes.We hould have existed in the shadows, giving them support , aid and cover and not hesitating to come and fight by their side if requested.
Considering that our President swore revenge against all nations responsible for the death of our citizens on 9/11 followed up with the classifcation of Iraq as an enemy nation by way of the membership nomination in the Axis of Evil, the Iraqi people have every reason to be wary of us, our leaders motives, and the end result of our effort.
We should have worked to earn their trust by fighting beside them and supporting them. We forgot that trust is a reward not a gift. Rather than expecting all Iraqi people to trust our word, we should have found a way to instead ask them only to trust in their fellow citizens and to help them realize that the true power was always theirs, they need only to seize it. The people of Iraq far outnumber the minions of Saddam. We should have aided them in using the same national and individual pride that leads them to be wary of us to unite and change their destiny themselves.
We still would have benefitted financially as the American oil compnaies are the best and the brightest in the world. Fellow Arab nations, trusted friends, would have attested to that. And yes, this may have denied us the ability to put a government of our choosing into power but that is not our right anyway.
Whereas patience, careful planning, and coopertive efforts with our other arab allies could have succeeded in removing Saddam while simultaniously starting to break down the wall of distrust and doubt of the Arab world and their citizens, we instead have instilled just a little more hatred, just a little more doubt in those eyes instead.
I do not believe that our motives are as sinister as many claim them to be, instead I feel that they are right and just and come from a desire and belief that all of the privledges and advantages that create this american way of life" should be available to any person, no matter their country. I simply question the execution.
And truth be told, I hoping that I am dreadfully wrong and that at the end of the day, the monster is slain, the children sleep peacefully in their beds, the warriors return home and everyone lives happily ever after.
posted on April 6, 2003 12:37:35 PM new
"Donny - I'm confused..... I know of only two...."
Well, the first, and official, reason was that they weren't in compliance with 1441, remember? That had to do with womd and other banned weapons, and absolutely nothing to do with human rights violations, liberating iraqis, or the axis of evil. The nuclear material buying document that turned out to be fake, the info on weapons sites given to the U.N. teams that were "garbage, garbage, garbage." Remember?
When that didn't pan out we added others, as selling points. I'm not sure if I can remember all of them, I remember the count at 8, but some were:
Liberating Iraqis from a dictatorship
The idea that Iraq might, in the future, give weapons to some terrorists
Setting up Democracy in Iraq
The Democracy domino theory (this was one of the latter additions, the notion that Democracy in Iraq would lead to Democracy throught the Middle East)
Saddam is evil, evil, evil.
Gassing Kurds 17 (?) years ago
Attacking Iran and Kuwait, that was, what, about 20 and 12 years ago, respectively?
Your two reasons are in there, but 1441 was the justification we claimed for this war... Remember?
If you don't, you're not alone. I saw a poll recently where 69% of American respondants said if no womd or other banned weapons are found, they still consider us to have been justified in starting this war.
posted on April 6, 2003 01:27:30 PM new
"And in Iraq's western desert, U.S. soldiers discovered what they believed was a training center for nuclear, chemical and biological warfare, Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks said"
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/33549.htm"
The Post is a rag. It looks like a newspaper, but newspapers consider it a tabloid. A better source for information is this AP story:
This gist - The vials are thought to be "just explosives" but they're going to check some more. And, a training facility is not a production facility:
"In that particular site, we believe that was the only sample," Brooks said. "That's why we believe it was a training site. Our conclusion is that this was not a (weapons of mass destruction) site ... it proved to be far less than that."
Bolding mine. Training sites aren't disallowed.
As to the "terrorist camp for foreigners"
Again, training sites weren't banned under 1441. It doesn't even work as a connection to terrorist groups, your linked article says:
"he said there was nothing to tie the camp to specific organisations."
Edited to add this:
"New Evidence May Link Northern Iraq Militants to Al Qaeda
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83047,00.html"
This is the Ansar al-Islam site, and its discovery isn't new, this keeps being trumpeted as "the proof" every few days.
As your linked article notes, it is in the Kurdish controlled northern Iraq. Saddam Hussein does not control this area.
posted on April 6, 2003 01:36:33 PM new
Dec. 1998 made by President Clinton. I see MANY similarities between what clinton stated about Saddam and what President Bush has said.
"This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere," Mr. Clinton said.
"The international community gave Saddam one last chance to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors. Saddam has failed to seize the chance. And so we had to act and to act now."
Chief among the targets are Saddam's many presidential palaces, regarded as key storage points for chemical and biological weaponry and the elements to make them, the first official said.
In Iraq, witnesses said missiles landed around one of the presidential palaces in central Baghdad. Ambulances were seen heading for the palace area as violent explosions rocked the capital. Reports from one Baghdad hospital said at least five persons were killed and 30 others were wounded during the air strikes. "I have seen around 30 wounded and two dead. They have missile and shell injuries," Hazem Nassiri, director of a teaching hospital in Baghdad's Yarmouk district, told reporters on a government-organized tour of the hospital.
In a radio address after the raids began, Saddam issued a statement urging the Iraqi armed forces and people to "resist and fight them." He said several targets had been bombed by the "wicked people" and urged Iraqis to "fight the enemies of God, enemies of the nation, enemies of humanity." I see Saddam felt the same about our nation under clinton's administration too. Not just under Bush's.
Mr. Clinton sought to turn criticism of the raid's timing to his advantage. "Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down," said the president, speaking from the Oval Office. "But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so."
Mr. Clinton said: "In short, the inspectors are saying that even if they could stay in Iraq, their work would be a sham. Saddam's deception has defeated their effectiveness. Instead of the inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors." That didn't change.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair said "we have exhausted all other avenues" and accused Saddam of "constant lies, prevarication and breaching of the agreed conditions" on U.N. arms inspections.
France, China and Russia quickly condemned the U.S.-led air strikes. The French government issued a statement saying it "deplores the escalation which led to the American military strikes against Iraq and the grave human consequences which they could have for the Iraqi people." Are these the same people that others here have said supported clinton but didn't support Bush this time?
"No one has the right to act on his own account in the name of the United Nations and claim to be everyone's judge," Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said, adding that the strikes "cannot only complicate the situation in the Gulf but also have more serious international consequences.
posted on April 6, 2003 01:45:59 PM new
continued:
Mr. Clinton seemed to be in agreement on this point when he reiterated his call last month for a new government in Iraq.
"The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world," the president said last night. "The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government, a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors."
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 6, 2003 01:48:25 PM new
A terrorist is a terrorist.
In one of your rants you state that the use of Chem and Bio by Saddam was a long time ago.
That makes a difference?
How old are you?
There were two Terrorist (training) camps found. One in the North in which the MSNBC news people checked to find traces of chem war agents and one in the South western section of the country. Nothing has been stated by our government about finding any Chem or bio as of yet. Probably for politicial or military reasons.
The way you skim over everything like it's just not important amazes me. On the other hand it's all right for Sadamm to kill all those people because it happened so long ago.
It's still happening or was a day or so ago in Iraq.
posted on April 6, 2003 02:11:07 PM new
"Dec. 1998 made by President Clinton. I see MANY similarities between what clinton stated about Saddam and what President Bush has said."
Again, Linda. Clinton said it, emptily. Bush did it. That is the difference.
Colin, you never answered me.. Are you blonde? I saw how much trouble you had posting that .jpg in the "blonde" thread you started. The irony was delicious. Bravo!
posted on April 6, 2003 02:15:20 PM new
::Your two reasons are in there, but 1441 was the justification we claimed for this war... Remember? ::
You, know the ironic part is, I had. 1441 has become the new Osama. When reminded we remember that it is the official justifcation for our actions but it it's name has seeming disappeared from our vocabulary.
