posted on April 8, 2003 12:34:26 PM new
::That is, without a doubt the most outrageous, unfeeling and disrespectful comment that I have read on these boards for the last three years. ::
Just out of curiousity, what positive feelings was the posting of the images intended to induce? Lets be realistic here, the photos were posted to induce shock and horror. To imprint an image of pain and atrocity on the viewer. That is neither an unfeeling nor outrageous observation.
Donny did not tell the story of he individuals, she did nothing to pay homage to their suffering or sacrifice, or to express sympathies for their pain, or loss. She used the images as her weapon of attack. I'm willing to bet that every one of those images was accompanied by a explanitory caption or story - none of that was included. In fact I rarely read an expression of sympahy or compassion following these types of stories and images when they are posted here. They are just tossed out as some type of weapon in your arguement.
As for caulous and disrespectful.... I don't think I am the one that used the image of pain and suffering of a 12 year old boy to try to annoy someone.
That't the least that should be done to them. A little consciousness raising is definitely in order...when we worry about our "mornings" while children are being slaughtered.
Stop following Linda around and saying Oh Yeah, and maybe you will develop some also.
People are being slaughtered. That message needs to be felt, even it it ruins your good morning.
posted on April 8, 2003 12:41:50 PM new
Helen, I don't follow anyone around. Someone can disagree with you without any outside encouragement...you seem to be providing that lately.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
posted on April 8, 2003 12:43:41 PM newJust out of curiousity, what positive feelings was the posting of the images intended to induce? Lets be realistic here, the photos were posted to induce shock and horror. To imprint an image of pain and atrocity on the viewer. That is neither an unfeeling nor outrageous observation.
Neonmania, I'm trying to do two jobs at once and I don't have time to deal with your inane comments. NOBODY was trying to send you a POSITIVE message. The message, neonmania is negative. Children being maimed, burned and killed is TRUTH now.. The truth is what we need to know....not a posed picture, beautifully colored to promote more killing. There is nothing positive about this invasion.
posted on April 8, 2003 01:06:15 PM new
What is it with the blatant inability to deal with direct questions are here? It's becoming a bit of a trend. Run, run away. We would not want you to actually substatiate yourself.
::NOBODY was trying to send you a POSITIVE message. ::
Ya Think? I understand that. I was using that point to explain my statement.
::The truth is what we need to know....not a posed picture, beautifully colored to promote more killing.::
So all of the photos and film of happy Iraqi citizens rejoicing in the the promise of a life without fear of Saddams whims are from Olin Mills Iraq, and a hollywood soundstage? Let me guess, they are using the same desert location that used to create the moon landing footage right?
::There is nothing positive about this invasion. ::
It's strange that you who have never been to Iraq can say that when some of the most vocal voices in support of the war from here in this country are former Iraqi citizens. Our neighborhood shop is owned and operated by a Chaldean family that fled Saddams Iraq. They still have family there and they are proudly sporting their American flag pins and in full support of the coalition forces. I too wish it could have been accomplished with less bloodshed but how arrogant would it be to to think that we have a better grasp on the situation than those that have actually lived it?
posted on April 8, 2003 01:21:41 PM new
National Desk | March 22, 2003, Saturday
A NATION AT WAR: IRAQI-AMERICANS; Immigrants Questioned By F.B.I.
By DANNY HAKIM with NICK MADIGAN (NYT) 809 words
Late Edition - Final , Section B , Page 12 , Column 6
LEAD PARAGRAPH - F.B.I. agents fanned out today in cities across the country, seeking to interview thousands of Iraqi immigrants, particularly those with military or technical backgrounds.
Officials said they had contacted nearly 3,000 Iraqi-born people in the United States since the start of the war to track down any leads they may have about possible sleeper-cell plots connected to the war. Altogether, they said they hoped to contact about 11,000 Iraqi-born people in the United States.
posted on April 8, 2003 01:32:00 PM new
Junque - You do not know these people, You have never met them or spoken with them. Please do not presume to call their opinions based on actual experiences into question, or belittle their displays or support simply to support your opinion formed from a safe and secure distance.
posted on April 8, 2003 01:37:20 PM new
You are basing your positive concepts on television footage and the tale of one family, neonmania. I am basing my beliefs on thousands of bombs falling on Iraq and Afghanistan resulting in the death of thousands of people. Do you expect me to believe that these people welcome such bombs and horror? Do you expect me to believe that they are happy to be without food, water and medicine for their families. Do you really think that, neonmania? If so, you have been duped.
posted on April 8, 2003 01:42:17 PM new
Im sure deep down they are all happy,that their fellow Country men and women and children are being blown to bits.
posted on April 8, 2003 02:16:14 PM new
Jailed Iraqi children run free as marines roll into Baghdad suburbs
Tue Apr 8,12:30 PM ET
BAGHDAD (AFP) - More than 100 children held in a prison celebrated their freedom as US marines rolled into northeast Baghdad amid chaotic scenes which saw civilians loot weapons from an army compound, a US officer said.
Around 150 children spilled out of the jail after the gates were opened as a US military Humvee vehicle approached, Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla told an AFP correspondent travelling with the Marines 5th Regiment.
"Hundreds of kids were swarming us and kissing us," Padilla said.
"There were parents running up, so happy to have their kids back."
"The children had been imprisoned because they had not joined the youth branch of the Baath party," he alleged. "Some of these kids had been in there for five years."
The children, who were wearing threadbare clothes and looked under-nourished, walked on the streets crossing their hands as if to mimic handcuffs, before giving the thumbs up sign and shouting their thanks.
It was not clear who had opened the doors of the prison.
Civilians also took advantage of the collapse of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s authority to grab weapons from an army base, said Group Sergeant Jeff Treiber.
As marines were alerted by radio that civilians had seized weapons, Treiber warned that anyone seen to be armed could be a target of US-British coalition forces.
"With the weapons they are becoming combatants," said Treiber. "If they don't take the weapons they will be fine."
Other residents stole air conditioning units, television sets and furniture from government buildings in an echo of the looting that was seen in the southern city of Basra.
A 19-year-old called Haider said people had been ransacking government compounds since the morning to steal weapons and furniture.
"Since the morning, nine o'clock, they have been looting. They are stealing weapons and I took three doors," he said.
At one stage the marines opened fire after coming under attack from snipers, leaving at least two civilians wounded.
One man needed treatment for gunshot wounds to his stomach and left arm.
But his friend, Abdul Amir Jaffa, said he did not resent the Americans despite the shooting.
"Americans are coming to free us," he told AFP.
The marines became increasingly edgy as crowds of people took to the streets to observe their progress.
"It's a problem with so many people in the area. Its hard to tell if there are enemy forces among them. You have to be careful returning fire with civilians all over the place," Lieutenant Anthony Sousa said.
Troops from the Marines' 1st Expeditionary Force also entered Baghdad on the east of the city Tuesday as thousands of armoured vehicles and Humvees poured into the capital for a showdown with Saddam Hussein's troops.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
posted on April 8, 2003 02:24:08 PM new
::You are basing your positive concepts on television footage and the tale of one family, neonmania.::
No, I am basing my opinion a multitude of issues and not a single family but instead the voice of a community. If you do a little research you will find that San Diego is second only to Detroit in the size of its Chaldean community. This is a community that has been very vocal in it's support of an invasion of Iraq to rid it of Saddam. They have held many rallys in support and hvae continued their support thruout this war. They acknowledge that there is death and tragedy but that it amounts to nothing in scale to what Saddam inflicted on his people. I used the family that I know because it's a personal face for a large community.
:: I am basing my beliefs on thousands of bombs falling on Iraq and Afghanistan resulting in the death of thousands of people. ::
Are you purposely ignoring that Saddam himself killed has killed ten of thousands of citizens himself? Do you not remember those images? I believe thats a greater number than any of the ones I've seen so far from this war.
:: Do you expect me to believe that these people welcome such bombs and horror?::
No one welcomes bombs. It's the goal and end result of the effort that they welcome.
No one welcomes a needle either, but they appreciate the end result of the treatment.
:: Do you expect me to believe that they are happy to be without food, water and medicine for their families.::
See, now I am confused, since malnourishment and disease was at epedemic proportion long before we got there. Yes, there was an issue with relief supplies in the early days but correct me if I am wrong... this was because the ship carrying tons of food water and medicine was unable to dock due to mines? Problem now solved, relief efforts in place, water supplies restored or in some cases provided were they did not formerly exist.
:: Do you really think that, neonmania? If so, you have been duped. ::
No Helen, I am not duped. I believe its niave to think that these people wish to live under a veil of fear and death and I give them and the human spirit more credit than you seem to.
You seem to be unwilling to consider that they may be willing to make extroidinary sacrifices in the name of freedom from the oppression of their current leadership. Of course there are those who do not feel the same, but right now it seems as though they are pretty happy, and from the footage of the citizens looting goverment offices and hotels in Basrah, heading down the road cart off their computer printers, ceiling fans, and even a generator of two they sure don't seem to have a lot of fear of the coalition forces they pass aong the way.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 8, 2003 02:26 PM ]
posted on April 8, 2003 02:29:08 PM new
Why is it ok to post the happy picture without posting the sad picture? There are 2 sides to this war and to be fair, both should be able to post equally.
posted on April 8, 2003 02:45:07 PM new
Sweet - I guess my request was not so much to not post the pictures, but to more, let a feel good thread be a feel good thread every once in awhile.
I also happen to really object to the way the images are generally posted. They are done without respect to the victim being pictured. The majority of time, the indivual pictured is not even acknowledged, they are just random images tossed around shock and appal and to further an agenda. It is dehumanizing and I find that to be incredibly hypocritical when coming from people who claim to care only of their welfare.
Yes, the image that started this thread also lacks any info or detail but it is the exception not the rule.
posted on April 8, 2003 02:50:15 PM new
There are people posting here performing their own brand of terrorism. The original poster created something esthetic and uplifting. Those who would destroy anything that is uplifting and decent are a small portion of the posters here.
Notice they did not start their own thread entitled "Horrific War Tragedy in Pictures". They came here to destroy what was created by a good and decent poster and drove it off topic.
Their intent is soley to cause emotional anguish in the viewer and destroy the uplifting theme of this particular thread. There is a small portion of the population that cannot stand to see what is decent, uplifting or good and feel compelled to destroy it.
The posters of the images of the children have made it clear that they will attack any war thread, attempt to upset other posters emotionally, drive the thread off topic, and want to wage their own war against those that disgree with them.
Do not fall for their bait. Simply click on the name of each person who posted the graphic pictures, then click on "ignore". Their atrocities will disappear.
I'm sure they would say, "Oh you are hiding your head in the sand." No, I know war hurts many innocents. I am quite aware of it, but it doesn't need to be thrust into one's face in order to care and know what's going on. After all, I know my cat takes a dump every day and it stinks. Do I need someone shoving it under my nose to know that? No.
I have put at least the two biggest offenders on ignore, so when they respond to me now, I just won't hear their blather.
Each of you has the right to decide what communication you wish to receive. If you don't wish to be subjected to their terrorism and endless nonsense, put them on ignore.
And yes, it is terrorism. They put the most possible gruesome images of injured children they could find only to upset those here. No other reason. Get it straight, there are actually evil people in the world that are bent on destroying anything good they come across. They account for about 2% of the population. Gee' I bet it figures out to about the same here!
I'm laughing to think that they are going to respond to my post and I won't see it or respond to them.
What would happen if we all put them on "ignore"? Believe me, you won't miss a thing. No body would talk to them, nobody would see their pictures, and nobody would be drawn into a wasted debate with those who are just here to create upset. They don't listen to reason anyway.
There are thoughtful posters in these threads with opposing views. They aren't the ones I am referring to. You know exactly who the one(s) I am referring to are, though, don't you?
Click on the poster's name, click on ignore, come back here and refresh the page in your browser. Voila!
Patty
[ edited by meadowlark on Apr 8, 2003 03:00 PM ]
Those who posted the graphic pictures of injured children came here to drive the thread off-topic and upset those here. Their pictures belong under a separate thread.
Oh, good grief! neonmania, You are equating the death of thousands of people with the benefits of a needle and a "treatment?" That reminds me of Madeleine Albright who said, when reminded of the fact that about half a million Iraqi children had died as a result of sanctions said, "It's a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it."
You say that you are confused about the hunger and disease that is at epidemic proportions long before we got there. Neonmania, we have been bombing that country for over 10 years while sanctions were enforced. Where have you been?
posted on April 8, 2003 03:11:40 PM new
Oh dear, a flag drapped cat and another poster upset over too much truth. Wave your flag and try not to think that out troops won't all return and that thousands of innocent people will be killed.
So far, 96 Americans have died in the last several days... that's the official count. Let's not think about that because as neonmania said, it's part of the "treatment".
posted on April 8, 2003 03:25:27 PM new
Helen, donny ,Junquemama... thank you for posting those wonderful pictures.... I hope all of those people are now sleeping in Allah's arms where Saddam can no longer hurt them... After all he is reposnsible for all this and he is directly to blame....
Thanks again for reminding us why we should be there and to keep the fight going...
posted on April 8, 2003 03:30:13 PM newWhy is it ok to post the happy picture without posting the sad picture? There are 2 sides to this war and to be fair, both should be able to post equally.
Because the anti-war/americans are to stupid to start their own threads...
Here is another beautiful picture of some anti-war/american scum the police taught a lesson to...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Apr 8, 2003 03:32 PM ]
posted on April 8, 2003 03:50:42 PM new
::You say that you are confused about the hunger and disease that is at epidemic proportions long before we got there. Neonmania, we have been bombing that country for over 10 years while sanctions were enforced. Where have you been? ::
We have launched a few at them from time to time in half hearted attempts to get sid of Saddam Helen but it has not been 10 years of bombing.
BTW - I find it funny that you, who is always to quick to point out that not everything is black and white, is uable to see the shades of grey here.
What would your solution to the problem be? Donny was asked three times and has not answered. Certainly with all of your concern for the welfare of these people you have an opinion as to what would have been a viable bloodless alternative. What is it? If the controls were put in your hands today, how would you protect the Iraqi people?
posted on April 8, 2003 04:41:36 PM new
neon, you said on another thread...
"Now with that said... I do not support this war. This war breaks my heart. This is not a military action. This is a political action. This is the act of a bully and he is destroying all that this nation stands for. We will never again be seen as a great and just nation. In the eyes of the world, the war will not establish our greatness, we will simply become a bully."
"For your info, 1) "I don't trust Bush any farther than I can throw him."
2)" I despise the concept of this war, I think there are other more efficient and financially responsible ways to get rid of Saddam."
3)" I whole heartedly support and respect our military."
I'm not sure where you really stand. Have you reversed you opinion about all of this? Besides these comments, you have made other suggestions.
posted on April 8, 2003 05:00:30 PM new
My apologies Donny, I somehow missed your post completely.
I guess the difference in our outlook is that I don't think that we are inflicting something worse than what we are saving. Yes, if we compare day vs day death toles, these past two weeks far outweigh the previous ones however when you look at the cumulative effect of life under Saddam I believe that this war is the lesser evil.
I believe that a life lived in fear is not a life. Saddams regime robbed people of rights so basic as free will. His blatant disregard for his people (insuffiecient food and medication for the public but a new palace with gold fixtures for its leader?) the layers sadism both physical and psychological, and attacks upon his own population leave me to believe that he presents the greatest potential danger to his people.
Ironically, I don't believe that this was a deciing factor in the decision to invade. As side effects go though, I don't think feedom is a such a bad one.
I still disagree with the way this war was laid on,
I still don't trust Bush any farther than I can throw him
and I still wholeheartedly support our troups.
I think the end result of this action is in the best interest of the Iraqi people because I have also always stated that Saddam needs to be removed, but I think that we would have suffered far fewer deaths and met with much less resistance had we done it a little differently.
Rather than staging an invastion, I think we should have worked with Anti Saddam groups with in Iraq, and most definately with the Kurds to back an uprising. We would have avoided the insult to national pride and avoided the Us against Them mentality that brought many more to the fight., inspired suicide attacks, etc.
I alo think that this method would make the first 6 months after the end of the war much easier as I think that there will be more than a few suicide bombing attacks against troops that remain to oversee the regime change.
"In my case, It's very simple. I think there are more fiscally responsible ways of dealing with the situation Our economy is in the pits. Our budget surplus is a figment in the distant past and we simply cannot afford a 100 Billion dollar a day war. Whie I agree that Saddam must be removed, my opinion is that htis war is a matter of political manuevering than military neccessity."
"Use the funds that were spent during the first 2 hours of the war to back a military coup. Give financial and arms backing to the Kurds and aid them in an incursion on Bagdahd. Furnish a weapons stockpile that would allow them to arm the "common man" who choses to join the fight. Back the Iraqi people in taking control of their destiny and their own country and then the world will come together to help them reorganize. As you have stated and as we all know, the Iraqi people do not support Saddam, they fear him. We should have tried giving them a bigger a stick... ok, and maybe a little air support just for fun"
"If that fails, then yes, notch it up a few, but there were other alternatives."
- Harry Thompson
[ edited by meadowlark on Apr 8, 2003 03:00 PM ]
