posted on April 9, 2003 05:21:16 PM new
It's not a racist statement, it's a fact. Muslims want to rid the world of Jews, Christians, and anyone else they think of as an "infidel". Self preservation is key to this type of thing.
One of the other posters said she married a Muslim, that she was a Jew, and then went on to ridicule Israel. Marries the enemy and then bashes her own kind. Traitor.
posted on April 9, 2003 10:21:00 PM new
<<<quote by mezuzas>>>
"Just because you sold out your people and married the enemy doesn't make what they are any less of a reality."
<<<end quote>>>>
I regret, guardcat that you had to read this offensive message and others on this board. I can tell that you are exceedingly tolerant to respond to these remarks with such civility.
The negative posting on this thread is not representative of the feelings of most Americans toward Muslims.
Helen
sp.ed.
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 10, 2003 05:23 AM ]
posted on April 9, 2003 11:00:52 PM new
Helen, sorry to say that although many or most Americans may believe, as you say, “The negative posting on this thread is not representative of the feelings of most Americans toward muslims”; those sentiments are nonetheless rampant and widely sent out to Arabs and Muslims. Regretfully, these messages are being sent out by some Australians too.
Any Criticism of Anything American: Fact or Not, Based on Informed Opinion or Not;
what a terrible thing to say???
To Follow is a Rampant Sentiment, Widely Distributed by Americans.
All Non-Jewish Semites Beware,
many in America believe that you are 'evil' and should be rooted out.
posted on April 10, 2003 07:51:39 AM new
The left wing spin about "it's all about religion" is almost as tiresome as the "it's all about oil" mantra. Political correctness aside the simple fact of the matter is that these modern day murder cults use the religion of Islam as their umbrella. They are not secret sects of the Girl Scouts or Free Masons.
And Helen provided a perfect parallel in the Indian Thuggee murder cult. This threat was removed when the British exterminated them, not by extending olive branches or allowing them say 10% of their previous murder rate. And as far as I can see it did not involve "genocide" against Hindus.
Eventually, these groups have to be dealt with, either by proxy or direct use of American arms.
posted on April 10, 2003 10:03:03 AM new
Reamond, violence and intolerance are only preached at some mosques by leaders who are either blinkered by the regime to a single cultural view and/or they are hired or appointed by the state and assigned state "minders" and religious police to monitor their subsequent views and statements.
These so-called religious leaders are not chosen for their knowledge of Islam but for their willingness to demonstrate loyalty to the politcal system. The reason they are so noteworthy is because they are the exception instead of the rule.
In areas where the local people are free to select their own leader (pastor) the message tends to be far different because the leader is not dependent on the government for his or her position.
This was demonstrated clearly in the change of message coming from the Iraqi spiritual leaders as the war progressed. As the risk of death at the hands of government appointed minders decreased so did the rhetoric against the coalition effort.
You are right only in the instance that some groups and sects claiming to be Islamic are very violent in their outlook on life. These groups generally hate everyone but themselves including other mainstream muslims. In some of these extremist mosques highly vocal and impassioned sermons are regularly preached.
If you look at the qualifications of their "pastor" or imam, most of them are higly illiterate, and again only appointed for their loyalty to the regime. They may know the Koran by heart, but rarely have any other education, and many of them do not know even the basic meaning of the words they recite weekly. If you quiz them on the traditions, they quickly prove their knowledge of the punishments of the law, but totally discregard the limitations and criteria for implementation. Any will routinely ignore ans suspend the burdens of Judgement. That is why Islamic "Shariah" or religious law is so twisted in many parts of the world.
But again... When you get right down to the values and beliefs of Islam as propounded in the Quran, there is no Islamic RELIGIOUS connection to terrorism. If muslims are guilty of anything it is in the forgetting the the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
posted on April 10, 2003 10:16:44 AM new
I am the Muslim, I was muslim before I married my spouse. His belief is therefore irrelevant to my choice. My Jewishness comes not from my beliefs but through my blood which is not any different than that which flows through the blood of my spouse's relatives in Jenin. Interesting that you would assume I am a woman.
I believe that there is one God, creator of heaven and earth, loving parent to all of creating, nurturing us slowly toward perfection. And that Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (peace be upon them) were his messengers. And that the message is this: All Truth is One whether or not we percieve it and it does not change whether or not we choose to argue and fight about it. And that on the Day of Judgement we will be corrected on the points of doctrine in which we erred. So until that time is us our duty to strive for personal perfection (the highest form if Jihad) Love God with all our hearts, mind, and actions and strive to live at peace with our neighbors and with the environment.
And that! is the sincere belief of the majority of Muslims who are suffering not at the hand of the west but under the yoke of unrighteous and opressive civil leaders.
As for Israel, I simply believe there is a better way to build a state than to marginalize half of its citizenry on the grounds of ethnic and/or religious belief.
posted on April 10, 2003 11:20:22 AM new
guardcat's depiction of the average Muslim's attitude is accurate, according to the research I've done.
Violence has been and continues to be perpetrated in the name of Christanity as well, but that doesn't make all Christians violent extremists.
I have no doubt that God is sorrowed by these spasms of evil committed in His name, but he has given mankind the gift of self-determination.
It is up to each person to use that gift equitably.
posted on April 10, 2003 11:28:18 AM new
guardcat- it is not just "some mosques", the hatred, violence and terrorism is spewed, it is also taught in the schools which are run by the religion. A muslim school right here in the US was teaching this hatred, and it is also contained in the muslim text books.
The muslim religion is the connecting line between the terrorists in all countries.
If it is not connected to the religion, then we would find these terrorists in churches and ashrams, but we don't. We find them not only in mosques, but actually planning terrorists acts with the religious leaders right in the mosques.
To buy into the left wing politically correct BS, we wouldn't even consider that the terrorists of 9-11 were all muslims, nor that the first WTC attack was planned in a NJ mosque.
The muslim religion is part of the terrorists MO, not based on prejudice or hate, but as a matter of fact.
posted on April 10, 2003 11:46:58 AM new
Sir, your assertions serve to remind me how important it is when fighting a monster to constantly guard ourselves against becoming the monster we seek to destroy.
posted on April 10, 2003 11:58:04 AM new
Islam is not espousing hatred.
It is the extremist elements of Islam doing so, often under the repression and direction of states and regimes which oppose the United States politically.
There are plenty of Muslims in America who support our actions in Iraq and bear those of other faiths no ill will.
We would be doing those Americans and peaceful Muslims around the world a great disservice by lumping them in with the violent radicals.
Doing so would just lower us to the level of Muslims who hate all Americans.
We're better than that.
posted on April 10, 2003 12:28:41 PM new
What I have stated has nothing to do with hate or prejudice and everything to do with common sense.
What you people suggest is that if a muslim robbed a bank, we should look for him in a church or ashram. The prospect is ridiculous.
What we do have is a common thread through terrorism that is clearly and positively linked to the muslim religion in planning, support, rationalization and motivation.
Now granted there will be some muslims and mosques that are not supporting terrorists, but we still have to wade through and find the terrorists.
posted on April 10, 2003 01:30:54 PM new
Hi REAMOND -
"What you people suggest is that if a muslim robbed a bank, we should look for him in a church or ashram. The prospect is ridiculous."
Who suggested that?
If a bank robbery suspect is known to be a Muslim, he should be sought everywhere until he's found. Hell, who knows, maybe that's the latest trick of Islamic radicals - to hide under the cover of other religions to avoid capture.
As for finding terrorists, I'm all for it. The U.S. government's been doing a pretty good job so far, I think.
It's a lot harder than some would think . . .
[ edited by ferncrestmotel on Apr 10, 2003 01:31 PM ]
posted on April 10, 2003 02:21:09 PM new
Well then what are you suggesting ? Either we investigate based on religion or we ignore it due to political correctness ?
Islam is not a religion of peace as it is presently being espoused nor based on the Koran. You also need to read the Koran if you think that this religion is peace based.
Islam is based on closed societies, which is diametrically opposed to modern western civilization.
The Islamic religion will have to go through radical changes to avoid the collision course.
posted on April 10, 2003 02:47:47 PM new
Dear Reamon, Therein lies the crux of your error. That thread that runs through our mosques is not linked to the true teachings of Islam, It is a political subversion and doctrinal perversion of our teachings that has not a clear defensible base if one takes the time to study the teachings of Islam (in the Quran and Sunnah) to discover the real value underpinnings of the religion.
True mainstream and the majority of muslims do not like this perversion any more that you do. That is why we ask for people like you to help true muslims reclaim the name of their religion by refusing to acknowledge the lie of those who will claim the name to disguise their power sickness and obsession with mischief.
posted on April 10, 2003 03:01:48 PM new
Reamon Wrote - "Islam is not a religion of peace as it is presently being espoused nor based on the Koran. You also need to read the Koran if you think that this religion is peace based."
In doing so he has revealed openly that HE has not read the Quran. Many muslims exist who have read the quran and who have its words memorized but who have no idea what the words mean. They rely entirely on what the government or government sponsored pastors tell them the meaning is. They are no better than Christians and other groups who rely on what their pastors tell them is in the Quran.
Islam is based on closed societies, which is diametrically opposed to modern western civilization.
Islam itself is not opposed to western civilization. In fact the U.S. Constitution is the most "islamically" correct governing system in current existence when viewed from the criteria outlined in the Quran.
The problem of closed religion is that you as a westerner free from the fetters of feudal society are looking in on a feudal system and judging its cultural and social norms to be the end all and be all of Islam. It is not. Islam looks different in America than it does in Saudi Arabia. This is because of culture not because of religion.
Another problem is that Islam became institutionalilzed in a closed feudal, male centric culture. Islam was never ment to be an institutionalized religion. It was meant to remain open and universally applicable to all cultures. And in the Quran it is. In the Current system of jurisprudence it is not.
According to the word and meaning of the Quran, and the understanding of the Sahaba (the first generation of muslims) Anyone who
recognizes the ultimate oneness of God and seeks to live in harmony with divine will including charity to all and peace within the environment can be considered to be muslim "in submission to the will of God."
The Islamic religion will have to go through radical changes to avoid the collision course.
posted on April 10, 2003 03:12:37 PM new
If I recall history correctly. There was a whole lot of people in Christian Germany who promoted acts of aggression and terrorism on Jews. This included support and promotion at pulpits and religious schools of the time. Many Christians were encouraged by their pasters and bishops to become SS officers.
Does Kosovo and Serbia ring any bells?
How about Kashmir and certain clashes in India between Muslims and Ramists?
It seems to me that even here in the US there are Christian religious sects complete with schools etc. who encourage terrorizing and humiliation of fellow citizens based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. You should read some of their books.
I can tell you that beyond invoking loosly disguised Christian jargon, what they say has very little to do with the Bible.
Timothy Mcveigh was not muslim, he was a "patriot".
posted on April 10, 2003 05:53:04 PM new
Hi reamond -
I have read the Koran . . . as a matter of fact I'm up to my eyeballs in research on the Koran right now for my second novel.
I have also read the Bible (Old and New Testaments) and as a Christian, I can tell you there is much in it which could be construed to suggest that Christians are violent hatred-oriented beings.
helen will probably be on me for this, but I would use the old analogy of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
If Islam's followers are evil, why do those of us who support the liberation of Iraq care what happens to the people?
Bad regimes and misguidance by evil and/or frightened clerics are the problems. Once we eliminate those, the peaceful nature of Islam
will be displayed in a light the world has never seen.
(Either that, or I'm wrong.)
posted on April 10, 2003 06:38:33 PM newThey wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of ALLAH. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them
The above is the oft quoted piece from the Koran in which the Islamic teahers justify the kiliing of infidels. It is the plain language of the Koran, there is no mistaking what it says.
You will find others who desire to be secure from you and to be secure from their own people. Whenever they are made to revert to hostility, they fall headlong into it. Therefore, if they do not keep aloof from you nor offer you peace nor restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. Against these WE have given you clear authority
Again clearly a mandate for murder. This isn't a religion of peace, it never has been, and until recently no one ever pretended it was.
But allow me to further clarify my position lest it be construed as one-sided. I doubt there is any religion that could not be distorted into a murder/terror cult. But that is not the issue, Islam is.
posted on April 10, 2003 06:52:47 PM new
'Thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven', Deuteronomy, 25:19. Cf. also I Samuel, 15:3: 'Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'
posted on April 10, 2003 06:55:02 PM new
I'll keep right on beating it, and you keep right on beating your jew-hating drum. We'll see whose drum is beating last.
posted on April 10, 2003 07:13:55 PM new
And to beat my drum a little more; I can say without reservation that the Islamic societies that are preaching death to the US, Britain, and Israel, those that cheered when the planes hit the WTC, those that cheered when the USS Cole was blown up, and all those that support and egg on the terrorists,-- we're coming. You're going to get your chance to kill us, and we're going to mow down everyone of you that offers any resistence whatsoever when we come after the terrorists and the regimes that support them. These regimes also include the mosques and the Imams spewing death and terrorism.
Over 70% of the people of the US supported whacking Iraq.
Anyone that wishes America and its interests ill and is developing the means to carry out that ill or is supporting terrorists directly or indirectly is going to get whacked.
We have real leadership in the White House now and the American people are behind him. There will be no more playing games or paying black mail money.
If you think that you can preach death to America in your mosque and then remain safe, you're wrong. The Americans coming for you are not defenseless office workers and they will be using deadly force.
The majority of Americans have not forgotten 9-11, nor do they turn a deaf ear to those that have been preaching terrorism and supporting terrorists.
We're going to whack them and there is no amount of glossing over what these people havedone, what they have advocated, and what they have supported.
Our armed forces will be giving each and every muslim that wants death to America a chance to put his a** where his mouth and heart is. And we will send them to meet Allah at our earliest convience.
posted on April 10, 2003 07:23:49 PM new
Why do you conceal the fact that you are Jewish, Reamond??
Would you have us believe that you are Italian just like the ‘Everyone loves Reamond’ Family.
Do you believe it helps the Jewish ‘struggle’ if people think other ‘nonbiased’ non-Jews accept the Jewish ‘cause’ out of enlightened analysis.
Not One Jew on All of VENDIO.???????
Jew-Hating???
No, just your divisive practices.
Self-serving, covert & underhanded practices. They are sly and insidious attempts at manipulation and coercive persuasion.
You refusal to show your hand/drum appears to be a universal practice, a common trait, among your community, but you do it well.
Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz
posted on April 10, 2003 07:45:09 PM new
‘They' can call me Muslim, or Christian, or Jewish, or Communist in an attempt to discredit me, but I believe in none.
I do have eyes and a brain and am able to form an opinion, based on the information/facts before me.
The great problem before any propagandists today, is that the world is getting more informed than ever before, smarter not dumber.
A wishfull note to HEELS of all races, colours, and creeds.
Time heals all wounds, and time wounds all heels.
posted on April 10, 2003 09:15:29 PM new
Only someone who is capable of believing that the ultimate truth lies beyond the scope of human senses is capable in believing in God and realizing the intrinsic value of his or her life and the lives of his fellow beings. And finding satisfaction in even the simplest of things.
All of creation testifies to this fact. Even the housecat has been given senses that surpass ours. So why do we in our ignorance continue to deny the truth.
posted on April 10, 2003 09:34:59 PM new
Please forgive me my Christian friends and siblings. This verse serves to illustrate how easily scriptures can be taken out of context by the devil to serve his cause.
St Luke: Chapter 12: verse 51-53.
Jesus (peace be upon him) says...
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay: but rather division! For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, Three against tw, and two against three. The Father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father, athe mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Those seeking issue with muslims in an attempt to rationalize their hatred and intolerance will often time quote the verses of the Quran out of context without understanding the "rest of the story" The people to be pursued and killed are the ones who persist in the religious persecution and who practice deceipt to gain power and opportunity including the breaking of treaties and discregard for the rules of war.
The quran clearly states that ANYONE who believes in God and the Day of Judgement and who lives a peaceful and honorable life is muslim (in submission to god) and is on the right path.
The Quran also states that there should be no compulsion in religion.
The Quran states that everyone Jew, Christian, or Muslim, whoever honors God and strives for an honorable life will recieve his reward with God and not one atom of good work will be forgotten.
May our mutual prophets be comforted from the certain heartbreak of witnessing our dissention.
posted on April 11, 2003 12:17:42 AM new
"We're going to whack them and there is no amount of glossing over what these people havedone, what they have advocated, and what they have supported.
Our armed forces will be giving each and every muslim that wants death to America a chance to put his a** where his mouth and heart is. And we will send them to meet Allah at our earliest convience."
I think Reamond's little essay hits it precisely. Previously we had to work through proxies and in such ways as to prevent economic (and catastophic) retaliation from Opec. Now after several years of developing alternative oil supplies and the physical presence of American ground forces in the area, I think THIS administration has decided to "fix" the Middle East.
We are now able to protect the distribution and shipping of oil through the waterways of the area. The process will began with a viable gov in Iraq. Then a fix for Palestine. When the rest of the Arabs see what is possible, the fundamentalism will decline.
Meanwhile, if the phone rings in Cairo and Bush says "Now about this blind cleric and his friends killing Americans......" The response is going to be different.
I'd be willing to bet that if the administration made public 10% of what we know about Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, there would be massive demonstrations in this country. 9/11 was these animals' zenith and just like the Japanese in WWII they are going to find their theories about the U.S. are a little off.
posted on April 11, 2003 07:37:02 AM new
The brutal regimes lording over the Islamic people are the biggest problem.
I remember one post in which the writer called the Iraqi people "Sheep" for not fighting Saddam. I would call them "survivors" because the military stranglehold Saddam put on that country was far beyond anything they could organize to fight it.
Also, remember that the level of education and access to objective news is limited in most of these Arabic countries. Look at how quickly the state-enforced "Death To America" parades changed to spontaneous celebrations saluting America when he was toppled.
Give Islamic people a chance to taste freedom and democracy before you condemn them.
