posted on May 18, 2003 12:11:34 PM new
Why is that Neon? So sneaky little b*tches can get pregnant and then sponge off the father for the next 18 years...
Had that person known that she would be the one footing the entire bill, you can bet your a$$ she would of ensured some birth control would of been taken care of.
The only way I could agree to this, is when men are no longer held responsible for unwanted children when the woman doesn't want to get an abortion, she either tricked the man into fathering the child or was to ignorant to use birth control; why should a man pay for her "decision"?
posted on May 18, 2003 12:12:05 PM new
Twelvepole
If you can't take the pill for whatever imaginary reason
Cancer causing agents are not imaginary. Some of us with previous cancer histories, or heart disease or a vast number of other medical conditions are advised not to take the pill. I know. I'm a cancer survivor and have been told by my Oncologist that the pill is a no-no.
So, shouldn't men take some responsibility, too? After all, it takes two. Women of America: Make your sex partner pay for 1/2 the cost of your birth control payable upon services rendered. Oh wait, that could be construed as prostitution. Just some light hearted humor. Hope you don't mind.
I like joining in on your lively discussions and no matter how ill placed I may think some of your opinions are, I respect them and don't resort to name calling or other sorts of verbal abuse. Just like me and all the rest of the people on this board, you are entitled to your opinion. And, you are entitled to express that opinion without fear of retribution from me or anyone else. Just remember that works both ways.
hibertst
You are right. My argument is not whether abortion is violent or not, or if it's right or wrong. Again, it's about choice - a woman having the right to choose to do what she wants with her own body. She has the choice to have an abortion or not. For me personally, I wouldn't have one. But, what I would do should in no way impact on what another would do. I have no right to force my beliefs on anyone else. And neither do any of you. None of us know what our maker is thinking and none of us have the right to think for Him.
It's okay to keep protesting what you don't like. It's another Right we have in this country. Just do it peacefully and respectfully. Sit for awile in a room where two people are arguing. One person starts out peacefully arguing his point. The other gets a bit louder arguing his point. Then, the peaceful one gets even louder. Eventually, no one hears anything because of all the yelling going on.
posted on May 18, 2003 12:30:49 PM new
::why should a man pay for her "decision"? ::
Because unless she held him at gunpoint making him engage in sex without a condom - he made one too.
ANYWAY -- You are mixing arguements Twelve - we are not discussing women that get pregnant to sponge off a someone - we are discussing women who wish to terminate their pregnancy and you want to stop them. You can't have it both ways Twelve - You can't force her to have the child and then say you have no responsibility. When you force your will and moral judgement upon the woman then you also take responsibility fo the child. You see it's not a punishment that you just forced upon her, it's a living breathing child and someone damn well better be prepared to take responsibility for it or you are only going to perpetuate every evil that you rail so loudly against.
If you consider these women to be so horrible, selfish, irresponsible,and morally vacant, why exactly is it that you want them to become parents?
Actually I wasn't referring specifically to anything you said. You didn't call me a b*tch, at least I hope you didn't. I'm really quite far from being that. Others have used the name calling tactics and that is what I was referring to. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.
posted on May 18, 2003 01:32:54 PM new
Twelve - and if they don't - who takes responsibility for the chiild - the mother that knew she was not ready but had it forced upon her or you who ignored her? Again - you seem to be forgetting - we are not talking about a potted plant here. We are talking about a child - you seem to believe that they have the right to life but not the right to be exist as something other than a learning tool.
What exactly is your priority here... protecting the child or punishing the mother?
posted on May 18, 2003 01:39:15 PM new
::Abortion is should be made illegal once again to get this country back on track with some values... after all Neon Mexcio is just 15 mins away... ::
Fear not dear - I'll be there long before Roe is overturned
But seriously - how do you think that making abortion illegal is going to teach values? Pregnancy and hormones may do some crazy thing but instilling morality is not one that I have seen listed.
posted on May 18, 2003 02:46:55 PM new
When an abortion is performed in Australia, ‘for medical reasons’ (including psychological), the foetus/baby is not killed when removed from the womb. It is considered murder, instead the ‘aborted subject’ is left aside on the stainless steel bench until all signs of life are gone. I am told that ‘movement’ can sometimes still be observed after 15-30 minutes.
I would think it more ‘compassionate’ to immediately ‘kill’ the ‘baby’ when removed.
People as contraception often use abortion and I think there are far more ‘compassionate’ methods of contraception.
I am willing to accept abortion in some instances, eg. rape, and yes even as a contraception when a mistake is made but unfortunately with that freedom we will see many people with multiple repeat abortions.
posted on May 18, 2003 03:07:40 PM new
Two people who were not aborted.
1. Female, who's biological mother was urged to abort her. Reason for the abortion given. The child was not adoptable. Biological mother did not abort. child was born. It was deformed. Child was adopted. She is now one of the best educators in the U.S.A. with many awards. She teachs the so called unteachables.
2. Male, who's biological mother was given a 20% chance of living through child birth. Biological mother dies at child birth. Child was adopted. Graduated from collage with two degrees. Played pro football. On his jersey was the biologogical mother's name. In her honor he did this during grade school. high school & collage. Today he is retired at age 27. He is a Lawyer for children rights. He was never able to hear cheers of his fans.
They are also my daughter & son & I'm so very proud of them. I wounder how many children that have been aborted that woul fall in this class.
posted on May 18, 2003 04:17:29 PM new
A woman's right to choose is simply that the right to choose. It is not a mandate to act one way or another, it is the right to choose.
Fred's comment as emotionally compelling as it is presents one aspect.
Some years ago well known actor Hugh O'Connor who had been plagued by cocaine addiction and other psychological problems for many years committed suicide. He was the adopted son of Carroll O'Connor.
I mention this only in that neither Fred's comments or the paragraph above bear any relation to whether or not a woman should have the right to choose what goes on in her body.
Fred's thoughts are emotionally compelling. For that reason, many have conflicted thoughts about abortion. For example, I find myself thinking that it should be the mother's choice but on the other hand, I would never choose to have an abortion.
It's a tough decision. It's especially sad to know that babies are aborted because of poverty.
posted on May 18, 2003 05:05:28 PM new
It's wonderful to know that some adopted children are doing so well. But, what of those still waiting for adoption. The unwanted children who will never have a home? Or the ones being bounced around in the sometimes abusive foster care system? There is a trial going on right now. A 14 year old boy who was unwanted and bounced from foster home to foster home, murdered a 4 year old girl. He's been demed unsaveable. His emotional problems are too great to be reversed, they have ruled. He's now standing trial as an adult. It's a terribly sad situation all the way around. Would it had been better for the boy's mother to have aborted him? He probably thinks so and probably so do the parents of the murdered 4 year old. Not all unwanted children turn into the ideal child.
Like davebraun said and like I said earlier, it's all about choice. And, as Helen stated, it must be a difficult decision to have to make, especially if it's based on poverty. Believe it or not, twelvepole, not all women who have abortions are heartless monsters. A friend of mine had an abortion almost 20 years ago and she still cries from time-to-time.
Are you then saying that women should have the right to be violent or non violent whenever they choose? With the possible exception of protecting one's own life against an immediate threat, under what circumstance would others have this same right?
posted on May 18, 2003 08:08:16 PM new
twelvepole, Cheryl is right. I was only able to take birth control pills for 6 months. They caused severe inflammation and joint pain. The excellent university hospital I was at told me to get off and stay off. That was 30 years ago right after I was married. I know many women who could not use them. Maybe you should read more about birth control pills before making such a statement.
The book "Outrageous Practices: The Alarming Truth about How Medicine Mistreats Women" stated "no definitive research exists about the long term safety of birth control pills, yet doctors prescribed them to millions of women for decades." Sound familiar? You can substitute Estrogen Replacement Therapy.
Molly Ivins was on Bill Moyer's "Now" the other night. She said the whole abortion issue with this administration and the "little Texas ba$tard" (my words) isn't about saving babies, it is about paying the Christian Right back for campaign votes and money.
PBS had a Japanese American woman commenting on the Japanese-American concentration camps here during WW II tonight. She stated that America has always been a country of suppression. Think about it. Americans (white men) suppressed Native Americans, black slaves, indentured servants from poor families when they arrived. White males have always tried to suppress any woman.
The Puritans suppressed their own flock, hoping the sheep would follow the Shepherd/leader. The Catholic Church and Christian Right suppress their flock by using the Bible literally. The Catholic Church preaches righteousness while a good many of it's priests are out screwing little girls, boys and nuns and other females when they can get away with it. NOT just American priests, do a Google search. They preached hatred of people who do not believe as they do. They teach "gayness" is wrong while covering up the large percentage of priests who are. Again, not just the USA, do a search.
No man has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
From the NOW (National Organization of Women)website:
Bumper stickers ($2.00 bucks each)
"Against Abortion? Have a Vasectomy!"
"Against Abortion? Don't Have One!"
And for some here:
"A Closed Mind Is a Wonderful Thing to Lose"
"A man of quality is not threatened by a woman for equality."
I would love to put any of these on my car, but fear my window would get stoned by a Christian Crusader out crusading.
posted on May 18, 2003 08:46:07 PM new
NOW that wonderful Femi-nazi organization that teaches women why they can't hold onto a husband...
And American women wonder why so many American men are marrying outside the country....
Birth control is a wonderful thing and there are many combinations besides the pill, for a woman though that is 99% effective, so if you can't use the pill, then you must practice other methods... some here probably have tried the "withdrawl" method...
But all in all it is still a woman's decision to have sex and if she allows her self to become pregnant, then abortion should not be there for her "easy" way out.
I will concede that if the pregnancy is from rape then it should be allowed as the woman had no choice...
Fred thank you for your posting... that is a wonderful story and I am sure there are many others out there....
posted on May 18, 2003 09:41:16 PM new
::And American women wonder why so many American men are marrying outside the country.... ::
Is there really a question - it's one of two things -
1) They are a sucker for an accent or
2) They are two insecure in their own masculinity to deal with a woman that has her own identity and doesn't rely on the man she is with to provide her with one.
Strange that you feel the woman should be subservient in every aspect except birth control.
posted on May 18, 2003 09:52:07 PM new
Women do have a choice and should do what ever she wishs with her body. She has a choice not to get pregnant.
Some years ago my Wife & I were for abortion rights. As our kids grew older and more independent, we were asked about our views on abortion. We tried to explain our views. We used many answers to questions that have been given on this board. After we gave our views, each of our children said " You know Mom & Dad with views like that, we would not be your children and yes, women do have a choice. They have a choice not or to get pregnant. After that it becomes a choice to live or let die as they then play the roll of God".
My daughter, married a young man who spent 17rs as ward of the court. His parents would not sign an adoption release.
When we were looking to adopt, we were very lucky to get new borns. Most children like ours would not have been adopted. Most people that want to adopt want perfect children. That is the only reason we were able to adopt them, they were not perfect.
A little more off the subject. We had to get money, for the first adoption fees and court cost from a loan company.
posted on May 18, 2003 10:40:56 PM new
I wonder how many men would go for your concept if women just started saying "no sex". Guys are already out of control... I can't imagine what would happen!
posted on May 19, 2003 04:14:36 AM new
kraftdinner
Like was said in another post: Just Say No.
As for men now wanting to marry [i]outside the country[/i}: Those are the men that believe a woman should be barefoot and pregnant. They are the men who want to have total control of their wives and a good deal of them are spousal abusers. These are the men that no decent American woman would have anything to do with.These are the same men that cry we let too many "feriners" into this country.
All the men posting here have a heck of a lot of nerve blaming pregnancy on the woman alone. As I recall from health class, a woman's eggs don't swim around looking for a mate. It is your little swimmers that do the deed. It takes TWO to make a baby; an egg AND a sperm. Until you have walked a mile in a woman's shoes, there is not much you can say. Until you have endured the pain of labor, a monthly menstrual cycle, menopause, and the severe depression that often accompanies each of these - you don't have much room to talk. Try thinking outside the buns for once. Like Judge Judy says: Keep in zipped inside your pants.
All of you holier than thou Christian types are exactly the reason I have shyed away from organized religion. Aposter is right. Those bumper stickers are great, but it is my fear of you Christian crusaders that would keep me from having one on my car. If you think for one minute that I believe God told you to bomb an abortion clinic, you need to go back to hills from wence you came. If indeed that is your God, you can keep him. Mine doesn't condone violence.
You have taken what is an issue about our freedom of choice and have turned it into one of politics and religion. It's about neither. I have said that abortion is not for me and it's not. That does not mean to say I have the right to tell someone it's not right for them. Just how much control do you want the government to have over what we can and cannot do? As women, we're supposed to be grateful to our wonderful politicians that gave us the right to vote in 1920. Gee, thanks alot for acknowleding us by the 20th Century. But, I'm willing to bet there are still an awful lot of you out there that think that should be reversed, too.
I didn't want this post to make me angry and was really looking forward to hearing the different opinions on the issue. However, it has gone on to be one of women bashing and I have chosen to get angry. I have chosen to think you little men and I have chosen to blame your small thinking on your gender. It's my choice to think how I want to think. At least you haven't figured out a way to try and take that away from me.
Before you start thinking me a Libber, I'm certainly not. I support equality for all people.
I apologize for my outburst, but I don't take it back. That's my choice. Geesh, are you ever going to get it or do I have to compose an entire post with the word choice in it 1000 times?
posted on May 19, 2003 05:50:58 AM new
Cheryl, the point you are missing is that only choice women should have is to participate in sex or not... knowing that if you do get pregnant you will be having a baby.
I can keep choice in there also...
I also do not condone violence against people who work at the clinics.... but a litle cleansing, of the building, by fire after everyone is gone... well those things happen.
Neon, typical excuses I expected from you and others here about American men marrying outside the country... but that is for another topic...
posted on May 19, 2003 06:14:30 AM new
"some here probably have tried the "withdrawl" method..." -twelvepole
Is that the same as or similar to conversacioun interruptus?
Sex with a drawl is a fascinating concept, but can you explain how it prevents pregnancy? How do you say FASTER slowly?
Are you really George Bush w/nom de plume?
"My pro-life position is I believe there's life. It's not necessarily based in religion. I think there's a life there, therefore the notion of life, liberty, and pursuit or happiness." -George Bush
--Quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 23, 2001
posted on May 19, 2003 06:37:57 AM new
Twelvepole, I am sorry you are for torching those buildings. Unfortunately those clinics aren't usually just for abortions. They are for birth control, family planning, etc. They contain records of women's health that go up in flames too. They contain personal belongings of those who work there.
They are next to homes or businesses that would also be in danger.
Torching puts firepeople in danger. MEN and women who fight those fires!
It costs taxpayers money when people consider torching those buildings. Money for court cases, water use, engine use and firepeople's wages.
And furthermore, when people who think like you do torch the empty buildings the firepeople are taken away from other possible fires.
Wow, your comments have really hit a low point.
Have to go to work. I think I will give some of the men there this link. I KNOW they will be interested.
posted on May 19, 2003 07:22:37 AM new
Well CBlev65252 you don't appear to be for responsibility at all. Letting you child drink and toke away and blame it on youthful indiscretion, take the easy way out and say abortion is ok you have the right to choose. Yes you do but it begins by choosing to abstain. And don't give us that kids will be kids excuse. Today's society want to take responsibility for NOTHING, its always someone elses fault and a thousand other excuses. And yes I do have kids, an 18, 11 and 3 year old. Proud to say my 18 year old does not drink and wouldn't even consider drugs of any kind. He is a leader on the youth council at church and helps hold seminar on One's own responsibility. Has he made mistakes ? Sure he has but he has had to own up to them also and that seems to be the breakdown in our youth today. A great majority of our youth knows nothing about taking responsibility they just blame others and it's the parents that normaly lead the charge. Take for example that "powder Puff" football game disaster. Yep you guessed it it's no ones fault and kids will be kids. What a load of crap. Don't take this as an attack on you but more of the sad state of a majority of our socirty today
It's nice to know that we have sooooo many perfect people on this board. I don't allow my son to "toke". He's almost 20 and I think we are beyond that. Nor, if you read my other post more carefully, do I condone that he does. In fact, not that it is any of your business, he never tried the stuff until he was 19. And no, he does not drink. This is surprising considering his father died of a heart attack when he was just 14 years old. I think he's done remarkebly well. I also have never bailed him out of anything. He takes responsiblity for his own actions. HE paid the price with the house arrest. I didn't shell out a dime, nor did I have to nag at him to honor the arrest. The court in fact praised him for being honorable during the entire thing. Thank you very much for your concern. Thankfully, his father isn't here to post his own reply to your comments. You don't know my child or me or our circumstances. I don't take this as an attack on me, but an attack on my child.
Abstinence is great in theory. But, as was said previously, there are more adult women getting abortions than teenage girls. The teenage girls opt for throwing their babies in the trash.
posted on May 19, 2003 08:05:31 AM new
12 has been trying for a long time to get this "krap" going, on abortion.And he will use it on every woman who posted about it.
Thats one good way to run off more posters.
See 12?..I do understand you.
He won't scare me off. I've come across more narrow minded individuals than that.
One more thing on the abstinence issue. One way to teach that would be to have your child do some community service work in the AIDS ward of your local hospital. My son and daughter watched their uncle and one of my close friends die from AIDS. Both of them practice safe sex because of what they saw and encourage their friends to do the same. My son will call me to bring him home condoms. Usually this isn't for himself. Rather he hands them out to everyone he knows. So, you see tomyou, he's a bit more responsible than you think.
posted on May 19, 2003 08:52:16 AM new
Well guess you took it as an attack on you, guess you didn't bother reading the whole post before your knee jerk reaction. Good for you for having him take responsibility for his actions. However, if he is in your house you do allow him to "toke away". It's easy to say I don't condone it but he does it anyway so what can I do. Being a Cancer survior as you are I am sure you are aware of the loads of cancer agents taken in with each toke by ANY user. Never said I was perfect either but oh well attack away no biggie. My comment was obviously about society as a whole not taking any responsibility and its reactions like "oh it must be great to be perfect" that do nothing but sherk more responsibility. Of course no one is perfect but until people quit turning to lawyers, pushing the blame on others and not having the youth accept any consequences to thier actions nothing will get better. Well go ahead and attack away as I do come here to get my laughs for the day and many poster never fail to comply !
posted on May 19, 2003 09:08:48 AM new
You have fallen for the bait. This thread was started when it was pointed out to a poster in another thread who had commented on abortion in that thread that hopefully Bush would put an end to a woman's right to choose in his second term of office.
In that thread the poster had taken the position that rather than the loss of their lives being a tragedy, illegal immigrants should be dealt with more aggressively by both law enforcement and citizens and encouraged abetting their death. He went on to espouse the concept that all lawbreakers should not be entitled to or receive the protection of the law.
In this thread he has endorsed the breaking of the law in order to cleanse what he sees as societies shortcomings, has stated "Why is that Neon? So sneaky little b*tches can get pregnant and then sponge off the father for the next 18 years... " and gone on to claim that this is why many American men marry foreign women.
To be considered: Who is this poster, is he past the age of majority and importantly is he receiving the supervision needed to protect society from him and if not why not. He has successfully manipulated many on this board to judge each other quite harshly and facilitated their personal attacks on each other. Isn't it time to stop playing his game?
posted on May 19, 2003 09:18:08 AM new
I really hadn't considered the topic of his thread at all but was making more of a side comment on the lack of responsibility as a whole. Perhaps I should have started my own thread but don't give twelve to much credit his head couldn't handle the swelling
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