Sorry, didn't mean to attack. But, you know . . .the mother lion protecting her cubs and all that. I'm really not prone to attacking and kind of surprise myself. perhaps too much flea marketing over the weekend and not enough sleep.
posted on May 19, 2003 10:36:11 AM new
I don't think anybody thinks "abortion as contraception" is always or even usually a responsible choice. But there are always cases where it is. The problem with drawing a legal line between "justified" and "unjustified" abortion is that it forces a third party into a discussion that, like any other medical decision, should be a private matter between a woman and her doctor.
I had a friend in college who came from a very religious family and swore she would never have sex outside of marriage. (She'd already "disappointed" her parents enough by choosing to go to college and then picking the "masculine" major of engineering instead of something womanly like teaching.) She fell in love with a very nice guy who was, unfortunately, also quite immature. He got her drunk one night and the rest was pretty predictable.
She actually got to the point of going to the clinic but when she got there, the screaming protestors scared her away. As soon as her parents found out she was pregnant, they yanked her out of school, convinced her she was a worthless harlot and then essentially abandoned her to deal on her own once her baby was a few months old. Her boyfriend did finally marry her (after he graduated) but it only lasted a few bitter years. Last I heard, she was on her third marriage. I have to wonder what happened to her daughter.
But it's really not as relevant as the fact that nobody - not her parents, her boyfriend, the Legislature or me - had the right to make her health-care decisions for her.
Abortion is the start of a long, slippery slope. Backtrack a little: Before abortion, there was the issue of whether contraception should be legal. And before that debate was the question of whether women had the right to make their own medical decisions at all. Many women and girls had medical procedures - including risky surgeries - forced on them.
posted on May 19, 2003 10:49:45 AM new
Ms - it's amazing how far we have come.
When I was 6 my mother decided that I was more than enough and decided to have her tubes tied. Despite the fact that she and my father were seperated and had fiiled for divorce her doctor insisted that since she only had one child, he would not do the procedure without authorization from her husband.
She was able to bully him into the procedure but to think that in such recent history women had so little say in their own reproductive rights is appalling and to think that people like Twelve would like nothing more than to strip them away again is equally so.
posted on May 19, 2003 11:10:42 AM new
It's not as "recent history" as you may think or hope!
I have another friend who's now 36. She never wanted children and would probably suffer serious health problems from carrying a pregnancy to term. She married a man who felt the same way. When she was about 30, she had to have some fairly significant laproscopic surgery done and she asked for a tubal ligation at the same time. Her doctor (a woman) absolutely refused, saying essentially "women always change their minds and I don't want to have to reverse it later." This despite the fact that the surgery Carrie was having would make it very hard to have a successful pregnancy anyway.
Because Carrie was in an HMO, she was stuck with her doctor until she could do an appeal. And because her doctor refused to OK it (and because she needed surgery right away)) she had to go ahead and have the original surgery without the tubal and then go back for the tubal later. It probably cost the HMO 10 to 20 times more and forced her to undergo anesthesia - another significant risk for her due to severe diabetes - twice.
[ edited by msincognito on May 19, 2003 11:14 AM ]
posted on May 19, 2003 11:11:09 AM new
no problem at all CBlev65252 I can understand where you were coming from, I have done the same thing on here in some of the pro war anti war posts being as that 18 year old I speak so highly of is still stationed in Iraq at the present time. Anyways , no hard feelings and I'll try not to single out a user while making a "in general" statement.
Not to change the topic, but I hope your son comes home soon!! Any idea on how long he expects to be over there? Prayers to your family! I admire his courage to be there. It's still very much an uneasy time.
posted on May 19, 2003 11:22:38 AM new
That's sad msincognito. It's funny how people are rejected from their own families for not living up to expectations. Sounds like she did everything she could to try and have a decent life and I hope she's doing A-OK now.
Tomyou, I imagine Twelve started this thread to either air out some laundry or to let everyone know how far right he really swings (as if we ALL didn't already know.) There seems to be a lot of pent up anger about women coming from you Twelve, but instead of airing it out, you choose to take stabs at us all. Your anger would make sense if you've been screwed around Twelve, but if you haven't then you just come off sounding like a lunatic. Angry people don't last long here Twelve. It works for awhile but then people will start ignoring you while any credibility you had slips away...
Put up or shut up (and I mean that in a good way.)
posted on May 19, 2003 11:56:05 AM new "Perhaps I should have started my own thread but don't give twelve to much credit his head couldn't handle the swelling"
Looks like twelvepole successfully jerked some chains. As tomyou suggested, don't let him know 'cause his head can't handle the swelling. LOL!
posted on May 19, 2003 12:26:43 PM new
They aren't very big about sharing to much info CBlev65252 but he has been there since just before the conflict started so he is expecting to come home very soon. We get to chat with him about once a week and his spirit still sounds high but you can tell he is ready for a break and REALLY wants to see his little sister (and brother as well).the closest Word we can get is within a month so we hope to get our Arms around him soon.
posted on May 19, 2003 03:30:41 PM new
Women should be able to make their own choices about abortion and they will live forever with the decisions they make, right or wrong. They may seek advice from everyone but the final decision should be their own. Lucky for many of us, we have never had to face this.
This comment was made: And American women wonder why so many American men are marrying outside the country
neonmania makes an excellent point. They are two insecure in their own masculinity to deal with a woman that has her own identity and doesn't rely on the man she is with to provide her with one.
Yes, some of those men seek out these young women, bring them to this country and then try to totally control them. They do not allow them to have friends and they are not allowed to ever try things on their own. Some get tired of the constant mental abuse and sometimes there is also physical abuse and the fortunate ones are able to break free and leave.
Don't get me wrong, not all men that marry women from outside their country are like this. I know men who have married these women and they treat them very well. But within my own realm of associates I know of some men who are totally dysfunctional and now one is presently bringing a third young lady here, after abusing the first two. The children involved in these marriages suffer because of it and one woman did consider abortion when she realized she was pregnant again.
As for answering twelvepole on these boards, some ask why we continue to respond? Many new posters and lurkers read these boards and they haven't a clue what is happening or the history that has gone down. They have no idea that twelvepole knows nothing about me or my real life and that he constantly makes up stories and insinuates scenarios. For that reason I will respond to defend myself from his false accusations.
I really didn't know too much about twelvepoles posting until this one where I unfortunately decided to respond. If what he wanted was to get a rise out of people, I'm afraid we have accomodated him quite nicely. Fortunately, most people know that name callers and those that continually belittle others have a problem of their own. In the end when most of us respond and get angry over someone's opinion(s), we move on and forget about it. I have a feeling that twelvepole does not move on, rather he feeds off of it.
I have read some of what has been said about other posters. Am I apt to believe it? Absolutely not. I don't know anyone here personally and have no right to judge anyone simply by their opinions.
Yes, a woman will have to live with her decision. Good point, Kiara. We all live with decisions we make everyday, good or bad. How many times did we seek advice from our friends or family and choose not to take that advice? Living with those decisions, even the decision to have an abortion, is the price we pay for being free thinking human beings. It's how we grow and learn.
posted on May 19, 2003 05:01:20 PM new
It's unfortunate that only 38% of Americans believe that abortion should be legal in most or all circumstances. Our Attorney General is among the 42% who believe that it should only be available in a few situations, such as when a mother's life is jeopardized. Eighteen percent believe that abortion should never be legal. (CNN/USA Today/Gallup 1/2003 survey)
Ashcroft is flat-out anti-abortion -- no qualifiers for him, thank you. He is opposed to abortion almost no matter what, rape or incest notwithstanding. Only the life of the mother gives him pause, and he is so doctrinaire on this matter that he also opposes the use of so-called abortifacients, like morning-after pills.
"If I had the opportunity to pass but a single law, I would . . . ban every abortion except those medically necessary to save the life of the mother," Ashcroft wrote to Human Events magazine in 1998.
posted on May 19, 2003 05:06:30 PM new
I have been reading this thread since it started. A quote I found says it best, in my opinion...
"Reproductive freedom — the fundamental right of every individual to decide freely and responsibly when and whether to have a child — is a reaffirmation of the principle of individual liberty cherished by most people worldwide. It helps ensure that children will be wanted and loved, that families will be strong and secure, and that choice rather than chance will guide the future of humanity." - anonymous
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
posted on May 19, 2003 05:07:41 PM new
Abortion is an interesting topic but one that people will never agree on because of personal beliefs and religion.
I don't really care why the subject was started but perhaps comments that have been made here may help some woman that needs input right now, who knows.
And it doesn't really matter if they are sneaky little b*tches or not.
posted on May 19, 2003 06:11:31 PM new
Kraft, I have no animosity per se against women, but have seen a few friends... shall we say "screwed" by that type...
I am fortunate or unfortunate however you like to believe, sterile... me, I consider it fortunate... twice now the look on some girls face when she tried to get me to pay her to abort "our" child was priceless...
Kiara you seem to enjoy doing what you claim I do... making insinuations and inuendos... chicken or the egg type thing...
Junquemama once again you have add nil to the topic thanks for stopping by now drive through thanks...
davebraun, still figuring out what planet you are from but I know your eyes must be brown, because you definately are full of sh*t...
I started this thread to get some discussion going and not derail someone elses thread.
It has been very enlightening... and thought provoking in my book...
posted on May 19, 2003 07:32:28 PM new
Sure you have animosity Twelve... against women who try to screw guys, and with good reason if you've experienced it first hand. If you had've said that to begin with, your posts would've made more sense (to me). If everyone was smart, nobody would make bad choices, like picking creepy women such as you and your friends did. If the government told you you had to stick with one of those women and support her and the unknown love child, you'd begin to understand how a woman feels if told she had to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.
posted on May 20, 2003 12:29:49 AM new
There have been cases where men have claimed to be sterile to avoid taking responsibility for a girlfriend's pregnancy. Is that the male equivalent of sneaky little b*tches?
posted on May 20, 2003 05:34:26 AM new
Could be, but claiming something that is so easily checked is about as smart as allowing yourself to get pregnant because you failed to use a contraceptive and now are wanting an abortion.
sneaky little b*tches you seem to enjoy this one little statement out of all that has been written here... this how you tagged your man?
Women have all the power and if they get pregnant it is their fault... no man can make you get an abortion, so why should you have that option when the man doesn't want you to have one?
Someone earlier jokingly replied... "What if the woman just said No?" Well she should be intelligent enough to say that if she is not ready to get pregnant.
Not true. There are men who make sure an abortion happens. They throw their partners down the stairs, punch them in the abdomen, and just plain tell them to get one or else (blackmail).
The problem with a thread like this is some young person will come along, read someone like twelve's comments and store it away for future reference. He used words/comments here that make women seem less than human.
On the other hand the beginning of his sentence is telling. "Women have all the power....." Should I read more into this sentence, something REALLLY deep Twelve?
posted on May 20, 2003 07:56:39 AM new
As kiara said, the fact that a particular statement by a particular poster draws a response does not necessarily indicate that anyone takes that poster's comments seriously. It just means that bad information has to be refuted.
It is as much a man's responsibility as a woman's to "say no." A resulting pregnancy is as much the man's responsibility as it is the woman's, if it goes to term. However, a man cannot assert a "right" to take part in a decision that dramatically affects a woman's health unless she chooses to allow him to participate in that decision (many do.)
That said, women are not on an equal playing field in terms of granting sexual favors. Many women in subsistence living situations are coerced into providing sex in exchange for job security, access to affordable housing or other necessities. The pressure to provide sexual favors (and risk pregnancy) is greatly increased when a woman already has one or more children. Only one-half of the women with child support orders actually receive the full amount, and the number of women who even HAVE child-support orders is pretty low. (Only 24 percent for women who have children outside of wedlock.)
So you see, the idea that "women have all the power" is laughably false. The closest they get to being equal is before a child is born. Once there is a child to care for, the choices dwindle dramatically. For every J.K.
Rowling out there, there are thousands of women working at Wal-Mart and cleaning strangers' bathrooms.
posted on May 20, 2003 11:43:56 AM newWomen have all the power and if they get pregnant it is their fault...
Some women have built relationships with men and after they have become pregnant the man has totally abandoned them. Or they find out that the man is having an affair. No, women do not have all the power, nor is it their fault.
"sneaky little b*tches you seem to enjoy this one little statement out of all that has been written here.."
Yes, I used it twice and I do enjoy that one.
In fact when it is written in italics it makes the little b*tches look even more sneaky.
It's because I have been a sneaky little b*tch on occasion in my lifetime and with no regrets. This has nothing to do with pregnancy or abortion. This is something that many females learn quite early in life. I used this trait in my younger years to dig dirt on boyfriends that cheated on me or on their girlfriends. I also used it to find out who my true friends were.
Now I have used it in the business world and I have found info on my competition by being sneaky. Never do I go out of my way to deliberately hurt anyone but I do use new-found knowledge to my advantage. In RL I have always been quite shy but I have been a great observer. I think many other women share this talent whether they will all admit to it or not.
Your general attitude is quite......neanderthal. Hateful attitudes generally about women haven't been heard since we lifted our knuckles off the ground to walk upright. You have a deep mental problem. You really hate women. You started this thread just so you could spout your hate.
In addition, your are a racist as you so clearly demonstrate in other threads.
So what the heck are you doing here? Shouldn't you be out somewhere burning a cross or something? Don't you have a Nazi Youth party to attend? You have all those qualities of those groups, but with none of their charm.
A politician will call you intelligent to keep you ignorant. I tell you that you are ignorant so that you may want to be intelligent - Eugene Debs
posted on May 20, 2003 12:16:54 PM new
Men can be sneaky little b*tches too ... but when they do it it's called "strategizing" or "doing what you have to do to win."
As tomyou suggested, don't let him know 'cause his head can't handle the swelling. LOL!
