posted on May 20, 2003 01:09:54 PM new
Whew. Am I glad that there are men out there who don't think like twelve! I dated a man like him once and I'm lucky I came out alive!!! I guess maybe there just isn't hope for everyone.
I stopped posting on this thread because I knew my comments were falling on twelve's deaf ears. I do hope that some young woman has read the posts here that are truely worth reading (and there are plenty of them) and they haved helped her in some small way.
This topic will always be a touchy one. It's too hard for most people NOT to bring religion and politics into all their discussions and it's too difficult for a lot of people to leave religion and politics out of the decisions they make in their everyday lives. Fortunately, I am not one of those people. I do what I know is right for me. I'm the only one that knows what that is. That goes for abortion decisions. No one knows what is right for you but - you.
posted on May 20, 2003 07:05:58 PM new
". . .After hearing from many women in my own life, and from women and men in my community and across the country, I began a more intensive dialogue on the issue. A lot of women opened their hearts to me. That dialogue led me to wholeheartedly support a woman’s right to choose.
I have come to believe that it’s not simply about the right to choose, but about a woman’s role in society as being free and having agency and having the ability to make her own decisions. That a woman can’t be free unless she has this right.
The decision to terminate a pregnancy is one of the most serious decisions a woman might make. It is deeply personal. In our society, all women and all men have a right to make difficult moral decisions and make personal choices. But women will not be equal to men if this constitutionally protected right is denied.
I want to work to make abortions less necessary, which means sex education and birth control. I want to work to make sure that, when life is brought forward, we have prenatal care and postnatal care and childcare and universal health care and a living wage. . ."
posted on May 21, 2003 07:54:23 AM new
I think that last paragraph is where the rubber meets the road. If the idea is to really reduce abortions, then the only valid approach is to fund family planning that's proven to work, and make sure women - especially very young women - have accurate information, access to health care including contraception and the ability to actually nurture and care for children when they are born (which means good education, affordable child care and a good chance of earning a living wage.)
Have we seen any of that from the current administration? Nope. Just a rolling back of federal funding for family planning and a new "abstinence only" campaign that has about zero chance of being effective.
posted on May 21, 2003 12:47:03 PM new
That would be a solution...
If the anit-abortion groups would put their energy into education and instruction, birth-control programs and such, it could just about eliminate abortions in a few years.
However, it wouldn't get them on TV. And where else could they spout their petty little hates...they would have to go back to beating their children and spouses half to death and such. Plus it gets them out of the trailer park for awhile....
A politician will call you intelligent to keep you ignorant. I tell you that you are ignorant so that you may want to be intelligent - Eugene Debs
posted on May 21, 2003 07:59:07 PM new
Abortion is as American as apple pie. It's part of our culture and a necessity for the preservation of our youth.
posted on May 21, 2003 09:30:10 PM newIf the anit-abortion groups would put their energy into education and instruction, birth-control programs and such, it could just about eliminate abortions in a few years. Really???? Well we've all been given sex education in school for the past 50 years or so. Birthcontrol pills etc have been available since what?? the late 50's early 60's??? And there's been at least 40 million abortions that were reported. Everyone knows how not to get pregnant....birthcontrol is very easy to get...just see a doctor and ask. No parental permission is needed.
Lack of education isn't the biggest problem....they've heard the 'talk'. Lack of personal responsibility is in a huge number of cases.
Then there are the women who chose to abort because the fetus isn't male.
IMO, there is no reason for late-term abortions other than the mother's life is in danger.
And if a women chooses to end a pregnancy then she certainly can make that decision in the first trimester...no need to wait until the pregnancy is well advanced.
Abortion has been used by many as a form of birthcontrol.....and I'm glad they're working to set limits. We have limits on most things in our lives and I don't find it unreasonable that abortions should have limits too.
posted on May 21, 2003 10:10:23 PM new
God, just reading this thread makes me want to puke. A womans choice should be made before she ends up pregant. After that shes has another life and soul insider her body. Only a witch could say a fetus is a choice or not a baby. Only a witch bound straight for the fires of everlasting hell.
posted on May 22, 2003 06:38:09 AM newWell we've all been given sex education in school for the past 50 years or so
That Mickey Mouse crap they call "sex education?" Get freakin' real. True sex education is fought at every turn. The best children get nowadays is "When a Mommy loves a Daddy....."
Birthcontrol pills etc have been available since what?? the late 50's early 60's???
Yes, they are available, after the doctor has given you the third degree about your sexual activity, written it down and stored it for later perusal late at night with his buddies.
The major problem with the anti-abortion league is, they want to stop abortions, not pregnancies. They want to have someone to hate, not help.
A politician will call you intelligent to keep you ignorant. I tell you that you are ignorant so that you may want to be intelligent - Eugene Debs
posted on May 22, 2003 07:52:51 AM new
mlecher - You are so far off base on how easy it is to get birthcontrol...you're really out of the loop. Colleges even give out birth control now. No one puts anyone through a question and answer session.
Heck women aren't even required to see a doctor before having an abortion, let alone to get birth control. Many here say it's a decision between a woman and her doctor. Unless they are seeking a second or third trimester abortion, all you have to do is say you want one. You ask, they give.
Family planning clinics offer birth control to prevent future 'accidents' but it's usually turned down by those seeking an abortion. They already know how to prevent pregnancies. They don't want to gain weight, they don't want to remember to take it, they don't ...they don't.
If I could have a wish, I'd wish all who oppose *any restrictions* on abortions could work for just one week behind the scene. It would be a true eye opener to those who think it's 'such a hard decision' to make. Sure for a very few it really is a tough decision....but the majority it's no big deal.
posted on May 22, 2003 08:03:55 AM new
"Only a witch could say a fetus is a choice or not a baby. Only a witch bound straight for the fires of everlasting hell."
posted on May 22, 2003 09:05:29 AM new
orleansgallery
First Marijuana, now this. If I want a hell fire and brimstone speech, I'll visit my local church. Just who are you to judge anyone? You can contribute your comments without making judgements about other people's character or morals. You are neither God nor the voice of God unless there is something about you we don't know. I'll believe it when you sprout wings and fly. News flash - Puritan times are over.
Edited to add:
Linda
I agree that unless the mother's life is in danger, late term abortions should be outlawed. But, the quality of sex education our children learn in school is a joke. There are many, many parents out there fighting the school systems over sex education classes. These are the same parents that don't bother to discuss it with their children. The same parents whose parents didn't discuss it with them either. Sex is still a taboo subject in many, many households. I didn't learn it from my mother and I certainly didn't learn much in my health class at school. I learned it from friends on the street.
As far as birth control goes, condomns should be offered in school. Are they? Not as far as I know. The moral majority has seen to that. Too many girls are still afraid to go anywhere to ask for them or the pill for fear their parents will find out.
Until we stop treating sex like it's some great sin and start talking honestly to our children about it, there is no end in sight to unplanned pregnancies. Those of you who think abortion is an easy decision for a woman to make and that she is willing to make it over and over as a form of birth control, really have no clue, do you?
posted on May 22, 2003 09:08:04 AM new
I can’t help but agree that many times abortions are done because women lack responsibility for their actions but in certain situations I do believe abortion should be considered.
As far as "choices" unfortunately it sounds like some of you think all women are equal and live in ideal little worlds and always choose when to become pregnant. Rape was mentioned and that should include date rape and incest if it hasn't been said. Some bag ladies and mentally unfit women get pregnant. Not all of these women had "choices" or the chance to even practice safe sex. There are guys that still think that a woman "was asking for it" if some of these things happen to her or things go wrong.
And don't bother creating any scenarios for kiara because fortunately none of this has happened to me.
Sheesh, with the "witches and b*tches" comments I get the feeling that some males have a deep resentment for the female species. They blame us for everything including all pregnancies and think we have all the power, some even seem to fear us but then again they can't wait to get in our pants!
posted on May 22, 2003 09:17:05 AM new
I don't hate women at all, but it does irrate me that they seem to want all the "choices" and take no responsibilities...
mlecher you remind me of the screcrow from the Wizard of Oz...
posted on May 22, 2003 09:35:38 AM new
Women don't take responsiblities??? What of all those deadbeat dads out there? Plenty of women opt to keep their babies. It's the majority of the fathers that run for the hills. It still takes two as fas as I know - an egg AND a sperm. Responsibility is also a two-way street.
posted on May 22, 2003 09:47:07 AM new
twelvepole, perhaps you are not choosing the right women and have had the misfortune to only get involved with the irresponsible ones so you assume we are all like that.
That would be like me reading what you write here and then assuming that all males are exactly like you.
posted on May 22, 2003 10:48:37 AM new
"Women take no responsibility?" I don't know what planet you're living on, but on this one women still have the overwhelming majority of the responsibility for child-rearing.
posted on May 22, 2003 11:26:01 AM new
Perhaps this thread was started with the hope that some vulnerable woman would read it and come forward and spill her guts about her own personal choices and experiences and then some could judge and trash her all to pieces because of what she did at a certain time in her life.
So a warning goes out to all who feel the need to talk. I have seen this before where people relate very personal things and get severely trashed and then go away feeling even worse. Don't let this happen to you.
And no, the above scenario has never happened to kiara.
posted on May 22, 2003 11:28:03 AM new twelvepole, perhaps you are not choosing the right women and have had the misfortune to only get involved with the irresponsible ones
Of course those are the ones he chooses, easy and willing. And anything that happens to them MUST be their fault....
And 12pole, you remind me of the flying monkeys...
A politician will call you intelligent to keep you ignorant. I tell you that you are ignorant so that you may want to be intelligent - Eugene Debs
posted on May 22, 2003 11:48:31 AM new
well i got news for you honey, I am reflecting the WILL OF GOD in my speech and you are the one passing judgement. Judgement to end a life that cannot speak, to take away the eternity of generations of people. YOU ARE THE ONE PLAYING GOD.
WHAT IS THE CHOICE TO CHOOSE? why don't you ever finish the rest of the sentence? THE CHOICE TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO RIP A BABY HUMAN BEING OUT OF MY WOMB AND FLUSH IT DOWN THE DRAIN? if that is a RIGHT, I don't want it! People once had the "RIGHT" to own SLAVES in American too. Sanctioned the the US SUPREME COURT.
People who know nothing about the bible are so quick to jump on the JUDGE NOT LEAST YE BE JUDGED, which was spoken by JESUS CHRIST. It was never said to justify immorral behavior, murder etc. If you JUDGE that you have the power of life and death over a living being in your body, you WILL BE JUDGED by GOD. You may laugh and cluck together now. Hold you heads high with your esteemed degrees and politically correct outlooks, but GOD is going to JUDGE you one day. Your posts mean nothing to me as far as reflecting the truth. I know the truth and it is written in the holy bible. You can laugh at it, deny it, mock it, and kill your children and do your drugs, but God will see you on the day of Judgement and then you will remember this post for sure. You should soften your hearts and have mercy on the unborn and show them love and compassion in their weakened state of life. No you are hard hearted and care not for the little things. You are prideful and boast of your own selfish desires and claim them as your "rights". You cannot silence me by trying to make the holy bible into a muzzle. I have every right granted to my be GOD to discern GOOD from EVIL -
DO NOT CALL WHAT IS GOOD EVIL AND WHAT IS EVIL GOOD - THE HOLY BIBLE
posted on May 22, 2003 12:15:53 PM new
I am not your "honey" so please refrain from using that term. Also, dear, darling or anthing else that might be considered a term of endearment. It's rude and unasked for. Thank you.
Again, I thought this board was to discuss topics in a rational, adult manner. Not a place to preach religion. I have nothing on my conscious that I need to clear. Those that scream the loudest usually have the most to hide.
For a new poster and Vendio member, you are certainly screaming a lot. I still haven't gotten to that point.
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 22, 2003 12:22:58 PM new
What rock did this guy, orleansgallerry, climb out from under?!? He appeared on the scene and immediate spouted hate and his ignorance....
And OH YEAH!
JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGED!
COMPLAIN NOT ABOUT THE SPLINTER IN THY BROTHER'S EYE WHEN YOU HAVE A MOTE IN YOUR OWN EYE!
LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!
A politician will call you intelligent to keep you ignorant. I tell you that you are ignorant so that you may want to be intelligent - Eugene Debs
[ edited by mlecher on May 22, 2003 12:26 PM ]
[ edited by mlecher on May 22, 2003 12:27 PM ]
posted on May 22, 2003 01:40:13 PM new
If you want a religious argument, I can give you one. (I do read the Bible, quite a bit.) God's judgement can never be compared to man's. He sees everything that is in our hearts and minds, and He has set one criteria by which we will all be judged: Repentance and acceptance of Him as Savior. Without that, all the works of men are hollow and full of sin. (All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.)
Is abortion a sin? Yes, I believe it is in many, if not most, cases. But it is one of many sins that cannot be judged by someone who is not omniscient. The Bible recognizes a division between secular government and the law of God.
If you want to live in a theocracy, you can always check out property in Iraq. In the United States, we live in a republic that respects the right of individuals to worship as they please and enjoy a reasonable degree of privacy.
posted on May 22, 2003 02:03:32 PM new
msincognito
Bravo! Well said!
It's people like orleansgallery that have caused me to shy away from traditional organized religion. Religion is a deeply personal and private matter. It should not be brought into these boards and shoved down peoples throats using old time religion scare tactics.
Thank you for setting things straight, msincognito.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 22, 2003 02:28:51 PM new
Hmmmm hadn't posted this to trash anyone one person or to trash someone who has done this... but I think Kiara is right now that this thread has progressed...
edited to fix.. had to hadn't
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on May 22, 2003 03:18 PM ]
Actually the thread is an interesting, and quite controversial, topic. I think it's important to listen to everyone's point of view. There are things we might learn from others here that we had not known before. It took just one idiot to mess it up. I wonder where he disappeared to now that no one has jumped on his religious bandwagon.
colin
You are right about the unwanted children. I posted a story earlier about one here in Cleveland that was found in the trash among tires. She was just a couple of hours old. There is a program in the city where a mother can take her unwanted baby and drop it off at a hospital, fire house or police station and not be prosecuted. That hasn't been working very well at all. I would rather these women abort there babies because I have a silly notion that those same babies will be born again to a mother that wants them. (I said I was unconventional) You have made some valid points. I especially like the line begining with "Should have." Colin, you made me blush. LOL.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 22, 2003 02:53 PM ]
posted on May 22, 2003 03:16:15 PM new
Clivebarkerfan's girlfriend here!
Heah ORLEANSGALLERY...
I was born in Salem, Mass. I was born a witch. My relative were tried as witches. I had an abortion. We both used protection, but life just happens sometimes.
Because of my position in life, I knew bringing a child into this world would be the worst thing I could do to a child. I was neck deep in an abusive relationship that I wastrying to get out of.
As I walked toward the clinic, a protester approached me screaming obscenities and telling me there were other ways. I stopped, listened and then asked her how many foster children she cared for. None. So I asked how many adopted children she had. None. I asked how many young women she had mentored or helped to keep the babies she was trying to save. Again NONE. So I told her the day she was able to do any of those things was the day that she could stand there and expect me to listen.
posted on May 22, 2003 03:30:42 PM new
cliverbarkerfan's girlfriend
Good for you! I'm sure you said what plenty of us wish we would have had the opportunity to. I've never had to go through the physical or emotional pain of having an abortion, but I'm sure I've done enough other things to get me a free ticket to he**. LOL!
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 22, 2003 05:40:39 PM new
twelvepole: Hmmmm hadn't posted this to trash anyone one person or to trash someone who has done this... but I think Kiara is right now that this thread has progressed...
B.S. I think you better go back and read your comments addressing women twelve. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. You apparently wanted to inflame and you were successful. Now the forum is lucky enough to have more hatred appear in the form of orleansgallery.
I can't post much but read the boards every couple days and don't put anyone on ignore. I like to contemplate posts by Linda, Bear and you; it makes me want to do something to help fight your ideas, like joining NOW after the Nov. vote or save to join some groups like Greenpeace or FOE.
Congratulations, twelve you may have brought out the Pat Robertson and cross burning crowd! Are we going to get more of this?...just reading this thread makes me want to puke. <snip> Only a witch could say a fetus is a choice or not a baby. Only a witch bound straight for the fires of everlasting hell.
I have read the AW boards to get eBay news for a few years and every year there seems to be some 12 year old who gets Daddy's credit card. Maybe the pre-teens have struck again!
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