posted on May 23, 2003 05:25:57 AM new
You know Kiara, at least IF I attack someone, I don't have to let others go first and then jump on the bandwagon...
You make the greatest lackey...
I don't ask people to leave, really don't care one way or the other... but you know what, if they do leave, I won't be missing them either..
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on May 23, 2003 05:27 AM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 05:39:01 AM new
12,you opened your own can of worms, for all to see.
Telling people to leave,and calling them lackeys,wont hide you...Congratulations.
posted on May 23, 2003 07:01:59 AM new
12,you opened your own can of worms, for all to see.
Telling people to leave,and calling them lackeys,wont hide you...Congratulations.
posted on May 23, 2003 07:44:41 AM new"Hey Aposter. If you don't like the posting start some threads of your own... oh wait that would take some actual thought... Well don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out... can't really say I even noticed you posting before..."
Actually I started reading these threads in early 2000 right after you did. I don't feel the need to post much, nor do I have the time. I am sorry you don’t seem to have anyone in your life and I am sorry if you had something unpleasant happen to you concerning abortion and women, or both.
Are there a certain number of postings you have to make to read or join in the conversations?
How many postings do I need to contribute? 2,500 like yours? I don’t want to live by the computer, especially when I am not selling a lot on eBay right now. I come to keep up with eBay and sometimes check other sections like this one.
How many posters have you just stopped from posting here with that remark? I think you recently ask someone else to leave.
Are you an employee of Vendios? If not, I am sure they are happy to see you asking their customers or prospective customers to leave. I thought we were all guests/customers of Vendios, not Twelvepoles!
If not an employee, have you been delegated by Vendio to review postings or posters?
Are you the reason there seems to be fewer and fewer posters here? I noticed a lot of familiar names on another board (no I don’t post there, just looking for info the other night). Many seem to have left here recently, not during the credit cards/more fees problems, but more recently.
Maybe the name of this section should be changed to “Vendio Twelve’s Table” or “Big Bubba’s
Blatherings” or “Middle Age Men’s Madnesses.”
It is too bad people are being run off. But then, isn’t that what Mr. Bush’s admin would want. The less talk, the less learning, the less understanding and the less questioning. More lambs who can be led.
I have this weekend where I might post a few more times. How many would you like Twelve?
How about one on female golfers unless someone has already started it?
Edited to bold "Twelve's Commandments."
[ edited by aposter on May 23, 2003 07:48 AM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 08:01:21 AM newIt is too bad people are being run off. But then, isn’t that what Mr. Bush’s admin would want. The less talk, the less learning, the less understanding and the less questioning. More lambs who can be led.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 23, 2003 08:38:18 AM new
twelvepole, when it comes to refuting your claims you already know that I am usually the very first one that steps up to the plate. It just so happens that yesterday I didn't get back to this thread for over 12 hours.
Your "lackey" comments stem from an incident a few months ago when Vendio gave you a little vacation because you were unable to handle the attention some other man was getting from many posters on the boards. You then decided to create a scenario in your own little mind and you are unable to let it go because now you actually believe it. You know zip about my personal life.
And no, I am not jaded by men. Since I was a small child, throughout my teen years and into my adult life males have always been my best friends and confidants. I have said that before.
You seem unable to tolerate a woman who can speak her own mind, especially the ones that see how you play your games.
To put your mind to rest about your created illusion of my life, twelvepole perhaps you should dig up some old threads.
Here it is in a nutshell, I am a singer and dancer who flies around the world and uses her laptop to sell her memorabilia on ebay and I play on Vendio just for fun between gigs.
posted on May 23, 2003 03:14:15 PM new
Mother Teresa spent her life serving the unwanted, neglected and impovershed children of India. She is a Saint and an example to the world. I don't believe there is a SAINT for abortion?
How can you make assumptions as to who should be allowed in this world or not? You are not GOD. Because someone is unwanted or unloved they should not have the right to their life?
Annie Sullivan - the miracle worker-abandoned orphan
Coco chanel-dropped off at an orphanage
Stephen Hawkins- Born badly physically handicapped - brillant scientist
who know who else is on the list?
I think it is very hypocritical to state how pro abortion you are when you obviously had a pro life mother or you would not be here today. Why do you want to deny others their shot at life?
I believe the human beings should have full rights and protection from conception. I believe it is cruel to encourage women to have abortions. I know a woman who had one and regretted it for the rest of her life. It is a choice one can make but it is irreversible once it is made, final and everlasting.
The bible says that God knew you before you were formed in the womb
and John the baptist leapt with joy in is mothers womb.
How can we as human beings with limited understanding make judgements to determine who should live and who should die? There is a destiny far beyond what we can understand.
I saw children once who were so badly deformed and handicapped I thought surely it would have been more merciful to abort them. I pondered this heavily. It was a party the nuns gave for them at a medical facility. I asked the young nun, why should this be? She replied because we have an opportunity to help them. They have a purpose and a destiny to each of us.
If there were no poor, or unwanted or unloved in this world, there could be no mercy or compassion of love or hope.
If this were a perfect world, it would not be the world and the spirtual journey could not exsist.
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 23, 2003 03:17 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 03:45:29 PM new
Orleansgallery -
My girlfriend did what she had to do. I know she weighed her choices quite heavily before making the final decision. Had she chose to keep the child, she would've ended up in a mentally and physically abusive relationship and on welfare. As that is a rough life for anyone (child or adult) she chose to abort the child, get out of the relationship (that wasn't immediate either), better herself, and make a life for herself that will in the end, be far better suited for herself and a child. This wasn't easy for her. She still thinks about it. She looks at my son and wonders. I don't think that there's a week that goes by that she doesn't think about it. And believe me, the h**l she puts herself through is far worse than anything you can imagine. But she knows she did the right thing considering the circumstances. She had hope. Hope that by doing this she would end up in a better situation down the road tht would allow her to have children and care for them in the best way.
Now, as for her mother....my girlfriend grew up believing that she was an only child because that was the way her parents wanted it. It is only recently that she learned that her mother has some severe mental illnesses and purposefully and maliciously aborted a few pregnancies after my girlfriend was born. Now, my girlfriend DOES have a problem with that. The family was finanacially capable of having more children, her mother was (is) a vindictive woman that used it against her husband.
I can tell you that I (and my girlfriend) am against women that use abortion as a form of birth control. At some point, celebacy should be the only option for those women. However, we are human and mistakes do happen.
By the way, how many foster children do you have? How many adopted children live in your home? How many pregnant mothers have you supported and mentored through their pregnancies and helped them place their children or supported them and kept them off state aid if they chose to keep that child? My girlfriend mentored someone. A friend of hers. She helped her and her family come to terms with the situation and after a few weeks of talking, the family took the girl back into their home, she gave birth to a girl, went to college and the family was able to help raise the child.
I'm glad that you and your life are so perfect that you can spout your retoric and deliver sermons from the mount. I will say that it is people like you that believe in judging a person that makes people run to the side of pro choice. You are so far to one side that thinking people don't want to associate themselves with your thougts. I hope that God is a more forgiving being than you or we're all doomed.
by the way, would back alley abortions be a better option in your book?
posted on May 23, 2003 04:08:22 PM new
Asking people how many children they foster etc, is a cheap shot. How many do you have? and why should I justify myself to you? I am not accountable to you and you to me. I have an opinon and a view that is sound and just.
I'm am very sorry your girlfriend had to end the life of her child based on her understanding of the life her child would receive. Her decision allows no interplay that God has a plan for a life as well. Adoption is always a happy option for all involved. Its just a baby? a little baby! Why not give it up for adoption than seek the death penalty? Perhaps the body of the child was destroyed at your hand but the soul is indestructable and one day you will have the opportunity to meet the life you ended. I firmly believe in that.
I can tell you despite harsh economic circumstances that perhaps you and your fold would have suggested to me to have an abortion, I chose life. I chose Gods Will and today the economics have improved and I look into a face I love more each day. I thank GOD i had a faith to believe in him. To walk by faith and not by sight or circumstances.
Should only the rich have the right to inherit the earth? The poor should pay the ultimate sacrifice for their children and abort them? This is elitism at is fullest.
Ben Franklin said "where there is a will there is a way". If you have the courage to believe and fight for justice you can find a way to support a child. There are better options than abortions.
Should we go back to back rooms? that question is ridiculous. There should be no back rooms. There should be safe havens for pregnant women to bear their children in comfort and care with counseling for the mothers and adoption for the babies. There is a a better way for both mother and baby. A way that is life giving to all.
And might I add that God forgives women who make mistakes like this through his son Jesus Christ who gives mercy and love to all, but one must repent and realize he made the wrong decision. If you do not ask for forgivness how can one receive forgiveness? God is merciful but there are consequences for sin for those who do not humble themselve and seek his mercy. I didn't make the rules bubba, its in the book.
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 23, 2003 04:13 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 04:34:52 PM new
orleansgallery
While I'm sure we all respect your right to your opinion, I'm pretty sure (so, correct me folks if I'm wrong) we can all do without the nightly preaching. Please save that for church or start your own thread about it. That way, we have the option to NOT hear about it over and over again.
Thank you - (said because I think there is still enough tolerance in me tonight to be polite, but it's waning)
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 23, 2003 04:35 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 04:52:39 PM new
Orleansgallery -
Regarding the foster children I figured you felt so strongly about this suject that you would do the "right thing" and have some. It wasn't a cheap shot, just an honest question.
If she had chosen to carry the baby to term, she would've risk losing it to the fists of a drunk and angry man. Would that be better?
There are not enough programs and housing for mothers to be and abused women as it is. Would you prefer we tripled that number? How much time and money are you willing to put up to fund that? And for those women that can't get away, will you work for DCFS and invesitgate the beaten children? Currently there are roughly 108 children in Illinois that are lost in the DCFS system because the workers are overworked and swamped.
Perhaps if you used the time and effort you spend here preaching/judging us to help solve the problem a few lives could've been saved.
Ever seen the movie Pay It Forward? That's how we chose tolive our lives. We don't judge just try to help. Just like Mother Teresa.
Edited to add:
Currently we don't have any foster children. Rather we have 3 cats (all former strays), a dog that would've been killed because he's extremely agressive with strangers due to the abuse he suffered (we became the 4th owners when he was about 4), and a parrot that was abused to the point that a toe had to be removed and she'll never be able to fly.
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on May 23, 2003 05:28 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 05:09:24 PM new
Well, Orleansgallery, as you can see modern-day Pharisees don't get much love around here.
The truth is, you've got the word of God mixed up with the word of You. You clearly don't know a lot about what really happens in the world. Adoption is not "always a happy option." In fact, it's usually not an option. The only babies who are in high demand are pretty little white ones ... the ones with dark skin, the ones who are a little too old, the ones who have a dangerous virus, the ones who aren't physically and mentally sound ... they aren't in so much demand.
posted on May 23, 2003 05:19:20 PM new
I believe everyone has a right to state their opinion here. Don't like what's being said??? ...there's always the ignore button. Freedom to speak our minds and share our beliefs and opinions is not limited to those who are tired of hearing what someone is saying.
---------
Those who so oppose the death penalty often appear to have no problem with taking the life of a fetus. That's hard to understand, especially when that same fetus could survive if wanted.
If you don't want a child....be SURE you or your partner don't get pregnant.
Yes the argument can be used that if all the 40 million plus fetuses had been born, some may have not had homes to go to. But no one really knows that for sure. There have always been hardship cases/families, and people adjusted. People made do. Families were supportive. Etc. So I really don't buy that all the abortions would have resulted in all these problems. Most young people get them without even discussing them with their parents....because it's not required. No one knows how many of those parents would have been VERY supportive of their children and grandchildren if only given a chance. But our society keeps working against families, imo, and this is just one way it happens, again imo.
Before abortion was legal, these children survived. They grew up and raised families of their own. Yes, there were back alley abortions, for the truly desperate. Now, we've reversed that trend and have fetus that could survive being killed. That doesn't appear to be much of an improvement to me.
posted on May 23, 2003 05:52:57 PM new
It never fails to amaze me how conservatives fight so vigorously for the rights of unborn fetuses but when they are born, will invariably step back and tell the poor mother to ...as Linda says,"make do".
posted on May 23, 2003 06:00:21 PM new
Yes, Helen I do think if many of these young people took personal responsibility for their actions so many of these abortions could be prevented.
I also believe if underaged children had to make their parents aware of the pregnancy, that would also prevent many abortions, because there are families out there that value life and would work with their children to raise the child.
And when there's been sex without protection I strongly feel that having the 'morning after pill' available, freely, without appointment nor prescription [in every woman's medicine closet] could end almost all abortions. People who keep having sex without protection are making a choice too....a choice not to take responsibility because it can always be dealt with later.
You said "And when there's been sex without protection I strongly feel that having the 'morning after pill' available, freely, without appointment nor prescription [in every woman's medicine closet] could end almost all abortions".
So. RU-486 is acceptable and abortion isn't. Then I take it conception begins when the little line appears on the pregnancy test? For all a woman knows, when she takes that "morning after pill" the cells are splitting and a life is forming. But that's ok??
The real problem that lies here regarding many teen pregnancies is the fact that the parents didn't teach their child self responsibility for their actions (or probably about sex). How are they supposed to help this girl/boy raise her/his child when they couldn't raise their own daughter/son?
posted on May 23, 2003 06:51:56 PM new
Yes, Cheryl that might happen too. But I've never seen young girls living out in the street. [Not speaking of those runaways, druggies...strickly one's who's parents have 'thrown them to the curb.]
There's always people with good hearts who find room in their homes for them. People who are willing to work with the girls and their families towards reconcilliation with one another. There are many organizations that are more than willing to help these young girls. All they need to do is ask for help.
It's my belief that whenever we discus abortion some think [not saying you Cheryl] that everything in life has to be perfect. It's not...it's never going to be. Yes, many people got pregnant before abortions were legal. And it did create a hardship on some, in their individual situations. But most people dealt with it and didn't run to the 'easy, on demand' abortions that they do now.
When I was in high school most girls who got pregnant either got married or 'went away' to have their babies which were put up for adoption. No one died...life went on...people accepted the consequences for their actions.
The largest problem when abortion was illegal were those women getting them done in back allie abortion clinics where they either died or were maimed by incompetent doctors. Many tried to abort the fetus themselves. Again, many deaths.
It's nice that there are people out there who will take these girls in, but there is nothing like your family. Just the fear of losing the love of their family is enough to drive these girls to abortion clinics without first discussing it with their parents. Parents need to let their children know at an early age that they can discuss anything with them. They need to reinforce that throughout the child's life. One of the worst things a parent, especially a mother, can do is make derogotory comments about another teen's pregnancy in front of his or her daughter. They also need to constantly let their children know that there is no problem too big that they cannot handle as a family.
I'm fortunate enough to be very close to my family. I got pregnant before I was married (I was 22). My family totally supported me and my choice to keep my child. I ended up marrying the father, but even if I hadn't my family would have stood by me. Not all girls are that fortunate.
Sometimes, these girls feel abortion is their only way out. To make it illegal again will not only take away a woman's right to choose, but it will force women back to the allies. I don't think we want that again.
Edited because my grammer really stinks tonight! Sorry for the misspellings.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 23, 2003 07:03 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 07:17:19 PM new
clivebarkerfan - A morning after pill is the same thing as taking the dosage of many birthcontrol pills, only you are taking it all at once. And it only works if taken within a very limited time after intercourse.
I personally believe life starts at conception. When the sperm hits the egg that's the beginning of life, imo. And if I were voting, I'd vote to stop all abortions with the exception of rape, or the life of the mother.
What I've suggested is a compromise and as far as **my own personal comfort level allows me to go**. We each make that decision on our own and that is mine.
I used to support abortion whole-heartedly until I saw what is really going on. Getting an abortion has been made too easy, the procedures are put in such a way that some people don't realize what's happening to that baby/fetus. You can't even show a picture [diagram] of the size of the fetus is or how human it looks to the woman seeking an abortion. WHY NOT? Might make them re-think their decision? Denial....many are in denial about what this is all about.
Abortions after the first trimester are almost always un-necessary. Many things could be compromised on between those on each side of the issue.
posted on May 23, 2003 07:19:40 PM new
Hey, if you think my way of talking is
preaching and you don't like it, too bad. I have the freedom of speech just as you and if you don't like it don't read it.
I think asking someone who is pro life if they have foster kids to prove their position is like asking an pro choice person to show how many abortions they have had to prove their position. It is idiotic. I dont have to fill out a resume to support my opinion to you.
YOU WROTE: "If she had chosen to carry the baby to term, she would've risk losing it to the fists of a drunk and angry man. Would that be better?"
How do you know what would have happened in the life of the child and how would she?
You don't make room for GOD's plan or will or intervention! Perhaps the child would have inspired the man to sober up who knows? The child was willed into the mans life by GOD but your girlfriend committed a sin and denied that plan. She needs to pray for forgiveness and be healed and forgiven and God will strike it forever from her record through his son Jesus Christ.
Before I came to understand the wisdom of God I understood the wisdom of man. I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly abortion would have been a better solution in her case. But after I came to know God, I realize that things can suddenly change for the better. You may make your plans but God will make your way.
I also think that people who just want an abortion tend to rationalize their decision so they will feel less guilty.
If you are poor and you have a baby and you believe in God, he will make a way.
"the rightous will not be seen begging for bread".
I have seen his miracles in my own life. I have seen the wisdom and mystery of his way not my ways.
People who think my view is a Pat Robertson Right Wing blah blah blah are people who think in terms of STEREOTYPES. They believe what the liberal media tell them. They are fooled and duped.
They are also hypocrites because they have their lives. They came from pro life mothers.
They have their VCR, home, car, vacations, they get to enjoy the sunlight and eat dinner and laugh and get a shot at what ever they want in life. But deny it to those in the womb because of some flimsy economic BS reasoning or rights issues that is not about rights at all.
They will never change their minds because their hearts are hardened and the are unable to feel LOVE for a fetus, a tiny human, a delicate position in the first steps of life.
They are unable to understand how mighty God is and how he can fufill his plan with any human anywhere. If you take life at face value you will never see a miracle because you only look at facts, data, stats.
These people try to make you believe they are full of compassion by saying women have rights and back room abortion centers will come alive and christians are evil hypocrites. But the truth lies in the fact that they are REBELLIOUS and do not want to confrom in anyway. They are puffed up with pride and want to rule their lives in their way, not the way of God. Which is to love your body, because it is the temple of God. And if your body is the temple of God, which it is, abortion cannot abide in it.
IT IS BETTER FOR A MILLSTONE TO BE TIED AROUND YOUR NECK AND YOU THROWN INTO THE SEA TO HARM ANY OF THESE LITTLE ONES --- JESUS CHRIST
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 23, 2003 07:22 PM ]
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 23, 2003 07:25 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2003 07:35:31 PM new
Cheryl - It's hard to say whether 40 million women/girls would have died in 'back alley' abortions or not. But there have been at least 40 million fetus killed. That's WAY too many. There has to be a compromise in here somewhere between the two sides. It's way too easy now.
Again I will say if any of you who oppose limits on abortions could work behind the scenes you wouldn't see these 'desperate' women/girls you often refer to. So very many appear to think it's like getting a hang nail removed....no big deal. Just eliminate the problem and go on.
And on the underaged girls - a parent is by law responsible for them and their behavior until they reach the age of majority. Can you, as a parent, even begin to imagine getting a call that your daughter has died while undergoing an abortion you weren't aware of? It happens sometimes, not often but it happens. Other injuries of the uterus happen too. Sometimes bladders are accidently punctured.
I believe most mothers would like a chance to speak with their daughters about their choices before a teenage makes such a major decision. Teenage girls need parental supervision/guidance and the 'state' shouldn't be taking that right away from parents. And this exception only applies to abortions. If these same girls need their tonsils removed, they'd have to have parental consent to do so. Abortions should be no different, imo.
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