posted on May 27, 2003 04:45:39 PM new
Clive's girl jumping back in...
7 pages ago this started as a discussion of Roe vs. Wade till being "on the books" (If I remember the wording correctly). God/Buddha/Satan/whatever you choose to believe has NOTHING to do with Roe vs. Wade.
Separation of church and state being exemplified right here. Thanks to the judges on the Supreme Court that had the intelligence to separate a person's god from legal rights of women.
What goes on between a woman and her god is between the two of them. If she chooses to turn her back on Jesus or believe in a god that is not to your liking twelvepole, that's up to her. And please try not to judge her on that. To tell a woman that she is a witch that will be condemed to walk the path of H*ll (or however you put it) really doens't usually win her over.
The last time I was in church, it was a wonderful place called Willow Creek. There was no h*llfire and brimstone, no looking down their nose at you, no judging of anykind. Rather, they chose to tell you how Jesus loved you and would be waiting for you whenever you chose to seek him out. THAT worked wonders for people like me that had turned their backs on the church after having encountered bible beaters and people who shoved religion down our throats.
Perhaps you are old school, perhaps you are just bitter. It doesn't really matter either way. But I can help you by telling you that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with that vinegar you've been using.
posted on May 27, 2003 04:46:11 PM new
Heres one for bible boy who knows so much scripture he inturprets for his own pagan agenda:
LUKE 12 4-7: I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who KILL the BODY and after that they can do no more. Fear him who after the killing of the body has the POWER to throw you into HELL. Yes, I tell you FEAR HIM. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennys? NOT ONE OF THEM ARE FORGOTTON by GOD. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid for you are worth more than sparrows. (JESUS CHRIST)
So Kraft how about that "WEE BIT" of scripture? are you going to pick and choose now what you are going to believe in the bible? JESUS SAID THERE IS A HELL- do you believe it? cause he said it dude.
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 27, 2003 04:47 PM ]
posted on May 27, 2003 04:46:40 PM new
But that's part of the dilema orleansgallery. If you believe in God and believe in the Ten Commandments, then you believe "thou shall not kill". If you eat animals and vegetables, then you're also killing life, or murdering life. YOU might think they're different, but God didn't add any admentments to the Ten Commandments saying "oh, I just mean people btw". It's up to the individual to decide what's right and wrong for them, not you, me, or anyone else.
I also feel if the tables were even, and women had control over whether men should be castrated or not, people's interest in other people's business might not be so enjoyable.
posted on May 27, 2003 04:48:06 PM new I think I have answered that question for you about twenty times now? Shall I try one last time? I believe the unborn have rights and those rights are being violated. Unborn people are being MURDERED. Does Murder bother you?
That clears it right up, then. I didn't realize you were unborn.
Just one more question ... how can you see to type?
posted on May 27, 2003 04:55:43 PM new
You are not getting it. The ten commandents were given to prove to us we cannot keep the law. We are unable to keep the law.
The ten commandments are a standard man strives to acheive.
When Jesus came to the earth in the new testament we are given salvation through grace. We can be forgiven.
When God wrote thou shalt not kill. He did not mean animals or plants. He meant PEOPLE. God gave man dominion over the earth. Animals were slaughtered and sacrificed all the time in the old testament to atone for sins. God found such offerings pleasing.
You can see the evidence in this when Jesus fed the multitudes with FISH. Animals were not what the ten commandments were about, the ten commandments is about HUMANS killing HUMANS.
So once again you show how little you know about the bible. You do not read it or even try to understand in its entirity. You only pick and choose the parts you want to agree with.
You all remind me of my 7 year old son. He heard the verse "do not look at the speck in my eye when there is a beam in your own". He used it on me the other day when I told him to CLEAN HIS ROOM. He shouted the verse at me to justify that I had no right to require of him to clean his room because I was not perfect. WEll let me tell you, I have the AUTHORITY to tell him to clean his room because I am his MAMA and children are to "obey" their parents. And you are to "obey" your heavenly father and stop quoting scripture like brats in order to justify your sin! AMEN!
posted on May 27, 2003 05:21:36 PM new
so what is your point???????
How do I know if he meant strictly people? Did the jews stop eating meat after the ten commandments? NOOOOOOO.
Did they continue to make animal sacrifices to GOD for atonement of sins?
Do you read the bible at all? Do you read Jewish history at all? Do you understand Jewish custom of the day? It would be very very easy to understand that GOD did not mean ANIMALS BASED ON FACTS not on my personal opinon. That is what you guys do. You don't go by the book. You go by your opinons. I go by the book. I can prove you wrong on anything because you have NO FACTS to back up your claims.
Did Jesus serve FISH at the sermon on the MOUNT? YESSSSSSSS are fish ANIMALS? YES
IS JESUS GOD? YES? so why would he issue a commandment he couldn't keep? HE WOULD NOT!
its just common sense, gee, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out!
So would you not infer from the biblical text that God meant PEOPLE when he wrote the ten commandments? since people needed ANIMALS FOR FOOD and CLOTHING? they didn't go to WAL MART back then you know.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:22:00 PM new
You're right orleansgallery. Jesus murdered all those fish for the betterment of the people. Same with abortion. In some cases it's for the better, for that person and society. Whether the act is wrong or right is not for you or I to judge.
What I find so interesting about the Bible, is God has chosen our paths and every one is different. What I learn from the Bible might be different than what you learn, so if you can enjoy what you've learned and how it applies to your uniqueness, you won't have time for judging your neighbours.
"The ten commandents were given to prove to us we cannot keep the law."
See, the God I know doesn't play games orleansgallery. It's merely a set of rules, that if understood, can help you get through life, that's all.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:30:13 PM new
You are so incredibly misguided I can't believe it. You actually think that fish are murdered? then you are lost my friend, truly lost.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:34:51 PM new
The fact that you would have equality with a fish is amazing. That you would see a little baby on the same level as a fish, it just so sad. I feel such pity for you.
Has a fish ever spoken to you? or driven you to the dr? or made you a meal? or told you a story? no. You and a fish are two different things.
I have a right to vote against abortion based on the biblical fact.
I quote scripture you won't touch and cannot touch. ALl you can offer up is your misguided opinion and you think a fish can be murdered and imply our lord and Saviour is a murderer...such a pity, such disgust.
[ edited by orleansgallery on May 27, 2003 05:36 PM ]
posted on May 27, 2003 05:39:38 PM new
Thanks for the sarcastic dig there orleans. That is exactly what I meant with the vinegar and honey reference.
Yes, I did read the bible. And I had to take it at face value since it has been translated, retranslated and interpreted into it's current state. I've listened to white supremists twist the bible into what they wanted to get from it, I've listened to Chreasters (those people who attend service on Christmas and Easter) and fancy themselves as being all knowing doing the same.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:43:00 PM new
orleansgallery you are correct in one thing. You have the right to vote. Fortunately you are in the minority and your religous views are not the law of the land they are simply your views.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:45:25 PM new
Yeah clive, you always go there don't you? you never use your common sense to make some connections in the book do you? You always want to hold up the bible as a lie and a twisted truth by nazi skin heads to prove is a lie---People who are christians know the truth and they don't fall for twisted versions of the bible. That is why we "study" it
You hold up the sick and impoverished of this earth as justification of the lack of mercy of our lord and the justification of murder of thousands of innocents.
You mock God.
You know I"m right. You hate it with your gut. You hate that I can make you and your prideful self made religious views into a joke.
You never say wow, Jesus did multiply the FISH in order to FEED the hungry. That is a good thing. You want to deny he preformed the miracle?
posted on May 27, 2003 05:49:02 PM new
Not misguided orleansgallery, maybe just another way of looking at things. The Bible is written in such a way as to be unique to the reader. When you start organizing Bible interpretations to mean black or white, the whole concept loses it's value. Personally, I don't see a difference between killing and murdering. I also don't see a difference between people and anything else that's alive. I try to value all equally. My God was the influence in my life, which is a much different God than the one that's influenced you, yet they're one and the same. See what I mean? Don't you think that's amazing?
posted on May 27, 2003 05:50:46 PM new
You know I stayed on this thread because i thought some people were really interested in learning the truth about Jesus. But now, it has become "casting pearls to swine" So as I shake the dust from my feet, I pray that you would soften your hearts and read the bible.
But Christians are not going to be your whipping boys anymore. There is a change in this land and people who believe fish are murdered and that ilk are going to lose control of the political machine. Because Americans are turning back to God.
Some people will never come to God because they cannot humble themselves to admit they are sinners. You are all sinners as I. Repent while you can.
posted on May 27, 2003 05:52:12 PM new
I wasn't going to come back here but I had e-mail notification so now I will say this.
He shouted the verse at me to justify that I had no right to require of him to clean his room because I was not perfect. WEll let me tell you, I have the AUTHORITY to tell him to clean his room because I am his MAMA and children are to "obey" their parents. And you are to "obey" your heavenly father and stop quoting scripture like brats in order to justify your sin! AMEN!
orleansgallery, your 7 year old son shouts at you because you are more than likely shouting at him like you are shouting at all of us. Children learn by example. Just reading all this I do feel sorrow for your child.
msincognito asked how can you see to type? I ask the very same question.
posted on May 27, 2003 06:33:34 PM new
Orleans - How dare you. How dare you think you know me, what I believe and what I think.
Believe me, I could sit here and call you all sorts of names, make false claims about you too. However, whether God is involved or not, I refuse to stoop to those levels.
The very important thing I learned about God is that he wants us to question things, even about him. Then we will be able to tell the false Gods from the real one. As a matter of fact, I have a wonderful book about it. It's called The Journey. Perhaps you should read it to understand why those of us that question do that.
I neve said I took the bible as a lie. What I said was I had seen enough people twist it to suit their needs.
Please tell me where I mocked God.
I hate that you can make my views on God into a joke? Where have I mentioned hate? I don't know you, how could I formulate an opinion strong enough to hate you?
Perhaps you really need this book! In a section entitled "Knowing Yourself" in regards to Deuteronomy 5:6-21. This is basically a way to look at the 10 Commandements and see if you "measure up". Number 9 - Don't Lie. Have you ever bent the truth in your favor, exaggerated a story "to make it more interesting" or covered up wrongdoing with a lie - even a "little white lie"? any of that ring true to you orleans?
I must say again that I'm glad I went to this church and learned of alternate approaches to religion before encountering you. If I had this discussion with yu first, I never would've gone to church.
posted on May 27, 2003 06:38:52 PM new
I let this post go because of the tone it was taking. I thought the discussion of this post was Roe vs. Wade and perhaps it's place in today's society. This post has turned into a Bible class. Clive's girlfriend is right. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. There are two things my friends and I don't discuss with each other - political affiliations and religion. The two should never meet and the reason why is seen in this post. There is no way to peacefully merge the two together. This nation was built on many religions, many beliefs. It's part of what makes this country great. Orleansgallery, you are the first person I have seen on this board (there may have been more, but I don't know) that has thrown your religion around and mocked what other people believe in. I don't think that God looks approvingly on that. Whether you agree with what other people believe is of no consequence to me. You have made your opinions known. Try harder to make them known without trying to tell everyone else that what they believe in is wrong.
I'm sure glad that my God is a loving and forgiving God.
Clive's Girlfriend
You go, girl.
Thank you.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 27, 2003 06:46 PM ]
posted on May 27, 2003 06:46:56 PM new
Let's not kill the messenger. Orleansgallery is just telling it like it is and everything that she said was correct.
Christians don't preach to be self righteous or to feel superior. It's not fun being insulted or even despised.
From a Christian's point of view, it's like seeing people drowning and we try to do what we can to save them even though it would be much easier to mind our own business and do nothing.
posted on May 27, 2003 06:50:24 PM new
ebayauctionguy
If you have read this entire post, you will see that it is orleansgallery that did the shouting and mocking throughout it. We listened at first and calmly replied. I don't appreciate people trying to "convert" me (as most people don't) without my having asked to be converted.
No, one but God has the right to judge our beliefs or who any of us are as people. Orleansgallery was on me until I left and Clive's girlfriend joined in. Now he has found another one to jab.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 27, 2003 06:51:47 PM new
ebayauctionguy - I don't think any of us are killing the messenger.
The problem here lies in the manner in which orleansgallery is attempting to "save us from drowning". Tossing us a life preserver would be helpful, however orleans seems to be throwing us an angry dog. Sure, we'll be able to use it as a flotation device, once we get passed the claws and gnashing teeth.
posted on May 27, 2003 06:58:17 PM new
alright clive, I'm gonna come back at ya. I really want to leave this thread! I feel that no one here is really interested in the truth and its just and endless run around of debate instead of a search for meaning and truth.
Clive, I don't need those books. I read the bible and talk to God about its meaning. Books that offer "alternative" understanding can also mislead you. You know even the "devil can appear as an angel of light".
If you think the bible is written by faulty man and is full of holes (which you have said many times on this thread) how can I have a discussion with you? All that is left is your opinon and opinions are not the gospel.
Where is it said that I don't think? or question! of course I do. But there is a difference between questioning to the point of disobedience.
I only want unborn children to have a right to life. Is that so terrible? I don't think so.
I want women who feel the emotional scars of abortion to be healed through Christ!
I have told people they can be forgiven for sins by a loving God! is that so rigid?
How would i be able to offer this advice if I did not understand that abortion is a sin in the eyes of God?
You have a sin nature we all do. That is not me judging anyone. I am stating what the bible says about the fallen nature of man!
How do we have a moral compass if we cannot understand what sin is? How can we help each other if we do not understand the definition of sin? We can't.
We cannot pick and choose the parts of the bible or the words of Christ we accept as truth. It is all there.
I cannot see at all where I have attacked anyone or mocked anyone. I have simply stated the word of God.
You know people can have all kinds of religions and all kinds of Gods but there is only one that is true. I know everybody thinks there way is the truth and thats the problem. But Jesus is the truth the light and the way.
So what do you want me to say to you? That you are right and I am wrong? I should be more openminded or flexible in my thinking? I go by the book.
I go by the book
I go by the book.
If you don't go by the book or believe in the book then how can we debate? There is no common ground.
I realized I was out on a limb when K thinks killing fish is murder. Or the 10 commandments mean killing anything was unacceptable. I think I presented a good illustration that is not what God meant about killing when he FED people with FISH.
This is not my opinion, its in the bible. I'm just reporting.
The buddhist think killing a fly is killing grandpa or uncle dave. Okay well...I dont buy that. Buddha? Buddha was afraid to suffer! Did he not say "to end suffering one must end desire"? Am I to have no desires in life? Buddha was scared. Why should I be afraid to suffer? Paul said "count it all joy!". Jesus suffered on the cross for me and you. Thank GOD he wasn't afraid to suffer or DESIRE that we should have eternal life.
My desires are just when they are in GOD'S WILL. If I DESIRE to feed the hungry or clothe the stranger etc. My DESIRE is perfect. So for all you DALI LAMA people, that has an element of wisdom but it will not SAVE YOU from HEll.
posted on May 27, 2003 07:04:24 PM new
The book was written by Judson Poling, Bill Perkins and Mark Mittelberg, all of WIllow Creek Church. Not exactly what I would refer to as "devil can appear as an angel in alternate light". They're not some fly by night church.
Regarding Buddha, I'm sorry, I think you mistood what he said. He wasn't afraid of suffering. He was saying that if you get rid of one, you must get rid of it's positive side as well. Yin and Yang, left and right, God and Satan. You can't have one without the other. That's all.
By the way, if you don't believe in God, then you really can't believe in H*ll now can you?
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on May 27, 2003 07:05 PM ]
Re-edited to add:
Buddha was a priveledged son that was kept from all suffering because his father wanted him to be a king rather than priest.
After encountering suffering, much of his life was based on suffering. He stopped eating because he considered food an indulgence.
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on May 27, 2003 07:12 PM ]
posted on May 27, 2003 07:10:07 PM new
well you know I don't know the folks at willow church, I have never read the book and there are some good biblically based books out there. But don't get too caught up in books.
Well you explanation of buddha does not meet with mine. I have studied the buddha, there is some great wisdom in Buddhism but its not the whole picture.
I will have to say that I did get a small laugh out of your clawing dog analogy. HEY!!! I don't think I make a very good preacher alright! But I'm just trying to state my views.
I get tired of the liberal world telling me to shut up, I'm wrong, I'm intolerant etc. Becauese I'm not. But then you know Jesus got upset and got pretty passionate and even kicked some butt in the temple because of the money changers. So you know. I try. I'm not perfect! I eat dougnuts and have a small amount of facial hair.
posted on May 27, 2003 07:19:53 PM new
orleansgallery, maybe you don't realize it but if you're trying to set an example, you'll have to be a bit more open minded. Some people that believe in God, don't believe in the Bible, or believe it's a story, or they believe in a different interpretation, etc. The journey is an individual one, meaning you have your theory and every other person alive has their own theory. Some might match yours, but if they don't they are all still as worthwhile as your own.
posted on May 27, 2003 07:22:02 PM new
I read your edit about Buddha. Well Buddha is Buddha that was his journey. Its not what I consider very practical But I tried it a few years ago before I found the real truth. I didn't care for it. It just didn't seem to satisfy my soul. I can't talk to Buddha like I can Jesus. And buddha don't answer me like Jesus. Jesus makes the check come on time and the bills get paid and all kinds of other stuff that is miraculous everyday. If I couldn't talk to jesus everynight one on one I don't know what I would do. I just feel sorry for people who don't realize they can talk to God and he really will answer. Its just mind blowing. He doesn't care if you don't do yoga and he dosn't care if your fat or homeless or rejected he will rap with you and make a way. He makes a way out of no way and his way does not depend on anything I do. He just gives.
posted on May 27, 2003 07:27:38 PM new
Kraft, I am not here to set an example to you. I don't answer to you and I don't care what you think about me. Who says I have to set an example to you? That I not have strong beliefs in my relgion of truth?
It is not a THEORY, it is a fact. It is from God and it is written in the holy bible. It is not a patchwork of politically correct liberal whateverism.
I will not be "OPENMINDED" I am very happily CLOSED on the subject of who is GOD. I will not be led astray by silly ideas.
I guess the people who believed in Hale Bopps Comet were in the right? How about the Manson Family? How about SUM YOUNG MOON? or any other CULT of doom? Thank GOd I want be so openminded to fall into a trap.
I am happily eating FISH for dinner. You just don't like a cocky Christian do you? You think CHristians are suppose to be milk toast sweetie pies that hold your hand? WRONG DUDE.
