posted on June 3, 2003 07:07:18 PM new
well I at least admire the fact you answered the post but I don't agree with you completely. It is the innocent who suffer most and what they are doing is wrong and should be stopped and the only way to do this is if they are evangelized by the missionarys. God bless the missionary who brings light to the world.
I feel sorry for all of them, the mother, the child and the opressive religion of the village. It offers no one freedom.
Socarates said once gave the parable that their were a group of people trapped in a dark cave. They had lived there for a long time. One day one of them ventured out of the cave and found the sunlight. He came back and told them there was life beyond the cave. They killed him.
Beliefs or religions are not all to be respected when they violate HUMAN RIGHTS. Human RIGHTS come first.
If you recall your history, people here once burned innocent people at the stake in the name of their religion. I am so glad someone had the moral courage to STOP the injustice instead of saying well you know I really hate those poor witches got burned at the stake but hey thats their religon and you know you "might want to ask the witches" I don't think they mind too much.
ITS BULL POTATOES! HOOEY!
Commandos should storm that Hut and take the woman and her child out and to safety! If I were president I would dispatch a unit NOW!
posted on June 3, 2003 07:07:22 PM new
orleansgallery, how can you possibly not understand that Bible interpretation is up to the individual - there is no right or wrong answer. Why is that not sinking in?
As far as organized religion being the false prophet, it's not the people in the religion, it's the religion itself - all religions. God doesn't want everyone to think the same. What good would that be? The fact you and I might not agree on a subject doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong. Does that make any sense to you orleansgallery?
posted on June 3, 2003 07:12:45 PM newCommandos should storm that Hut and take the woman and her child out and to safety! If I were president I would dispatch a unit NOW!
Believe it or not, we do not rule the world. We do not have the right to tell the world what they should and should not believe. Africa is a big continent, why are you suggesting we step on it?
Thank you for at leasting posting in a manner that didn't take on such a hateful tone. We will respond to you respectfully if you do the same.
kraftdinner
Probably makes no sense at all.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on June 3, 2003 07:15:05 PM new
Kraft you are now writing a different post from the one I responded to originally, where you said organized relgion is a "false prophet" and I replied you cannot judge all organized religion in that way because some people do benefit from it.
Now you are changing your story and saying its "not the people" but the religion itself? what is the religion if it is not people? People organize themselves. Organized religion is people? so how could it "not be the people"?
Do you not believe in organized shopping? or organized driving? Every thing is society is organized? So whats your point? the fact that we organize is wrong?
There is most certainly right and wrong answers in a religious text. An example would be the cleric who teach the koran as a justification to kill. THEY HAVE THE WRONG ANSWER. PERIOD.
posted on June 3, 2003 07:18:43 PM new
If my posts take an "hateful tone" it is because yours have an "arrogant one".
I do believe my posts do not have a hateful tone they have tone of intelligence. I can see exactly what your true views are now. You do not have a religion of kindness if you can justify a belief system over the death of a mother and a child rendered homeless and then try to say our country has no right to fight evil in the world.
At least this converation has proven you hold fast to your belief about your "tolernace".
And of course you will ignore my WITCH BURNING example. Because you can't apply your philosophy to it. I'd like to see you try, it would be interesting.
posted on June 3, 2003 07:20:44 PM new
One entry found for infidel.
Main Entry: in·fi·del
Pronunciation: 'in-f&-d&l, -f&-"del
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful -- more at FIDELITY
Date: 15th century
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
- infidel adjective
posted on June 3, 2003 07:29:50 PM new
Heres my last thought on the subject. I feel I have proven my point. Liberals don't know what they are talking about half the time.
I have always wondered why auctionwatch vendio round table has always attracted such a hoard of left wing rebels. Its very strange. Maybe its because the right wing is out running the world. I think I'll go join them now.
posted on June 3, 2003 07:30:25 PM new
If you will recall, I said something about the Witch Trials. I said they were burned in the name of Christianity. The same Christianity you are so boastful about and think is far better than any other religion on the planet. Yes, thankfully the trials were stopped.
I don't think God cares how we choose to worship him. I think he is just glad that we do. DO NOT start reading in to that that I believe the Africans are actually worshipping the same God. They are worshipping their own God which is their right.
Attempts to convert me, or to make others think I am an idiot, or to condemn me will not work. Others better than you have tried. Oh, to add fuel to your fire, I don't think Wicca is a bad thing either. I don't practice it, it's not for me, but I don't think it's bad either.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on June 3, 2003 08:15:40 PM new
orleansgallery, each religion has it's own way of interpreting the Bible, or have their own Bible. All religions are organized in this way. They work because God is behind their interpretations. Religions couldn't be organized if they allowed each person to have their own interpretation, that's why it's false. As seen throughout the ages, God and religion are on opposing teams.
posted on June 3, 2003 09:41:42 PM new
DANG! What did I miss??? I thought Orleans took her ball and went home.
Man...now I gotta play catch up!
Ummm, most artists don't look like bikers. People seem to be scared of individuals that look like bikers and think that they don't have a brain in their heads and only drink Jack, Jim, and Jose then afterward hit things.
I'm glad you shave, as I'm sure your husband is too. I'm glad my girl shaves too since I hate the idea of getting into bed with someone with hairier legs than me.
My girl is part American Indian. According to the missionarys, they (the Indians) needed to be evagelized too. Funny thing happened there...many died from syphillis, gonoreha, and other disease due to the white man. Then those same God fearing men took their land, marched them across the country, thousands dies, then stuck them in little areas. Now, alcoholism, drug abuse and suicide make their numbers smaller. Thesewere people that lived here for centuries before without the help of missionaries and did quite well. Oh, they also helped save the pilgrims. Yep, they needed saving didn't they?
Regarding the Salem witch trials (she's also related to them). You may want to go back and check your facts. For most of the women, men and children that were killed were not practitioners of wicca, they were church going people. It's just that the people of the church chose to believe a bunch of girls and then chose to kill these innocent people in the name of Christianity. It was like a life and death version of the little boy who cried wolf.
As for the woman in the hut...once they storm that hut and take her to safety, what happens? Who is going to give her a new hut, new people to interact with and a way to support her child?
Your tones specifically have a tone of condiscension. It is one thing to be intelligent, it is another to make others feel stupid.
The right wing was out running the world? Yeah, into the GROUND! It's because of the right wing that we need groups like the ACLU that will remind right wingers about PERSONAL FREEDOMS. And at the same time, defend your right of freedom of expression. But just bear in mind that the freedom of expression does not protect you from consequence. Cause and effect.
I doubt your last post is really your last. You said that a page and a half ago!
Orleans, haave you ever looked at a rainbow? There's many different colors. Not just one. Without all of the colors a rainbow isn't a rainbow. No one color is better or more right than any of the others, same thing with discussions like this.
Cheryl, congrats to you and your dude! Please know that if I'd been here, I would've had your back. Looks like Kraftdinner, Junquemama, and Helen did a fine job of helping you out!
And in the infamous words of (the band) War (please sing along if you know the words): WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS.
posted on June 3, 2003 09:42:47 PM new
cb
where do you miss the point?
i am not advocating that people cannot worship a God they believe in. Thats totally cool. Fortunately our founding fathers and mothers gave us Freedom of religion in this country.
But when a persons religion violates basic human rights and impedes upon the laws of civilization then their personal belief or religion has lost its respect. What is difficult is the inturpretation of their text. They can use it to justify their actions as well as the believer who uses it to justify what is peaceful and good about the religion. Thus there has to be a unified inturpretation that is agreed upon as to what is good or truth in that belief system. This is why inturpretation of bibilica texts from any religion must have a standard viewpoint. Otherwise its a free for all. There has to be correct ways of intupretting religious text? see what I mean?
Example burning witches blowing up building executing unwed mothers. It is at that point we must exersize our judgement and take action.
So this is why I stand firm that all beliefs cannot be treated equally if they violate basic human rights.
I am not trying to convert you. I am just debating a point. Religions and beliefs cannot all be embraced simply because they are a religion or a belief. That would be foolish.
I am sure that we are in agreement in this, their may be a miscommunication in how we are relating this topic.
An example would be on our own soil when that guy who was just caught that blew up the abortion clinic. He had a right to not believe in abortion according to his religious beliefs but when he decides to blow up a building and kill innocent people his religion is lost and our respect for his beliefs has ceased. He will have to pay the consequences of his actions to society. Otherwise people could go around doing whatever they wanted in the name of their religion and we would just have to sit back and say, well thats his religion. Bull hockey to that!
If it were a perfect world and all religions lead were peaceful searches for a higher power then I could embrace them all. But things go awry in life. I have no problem with a peacful muslim, christian, jew buddhist whatever.
I am not holding up examples to prove christianity is the better way. I am using examples to show what beliefs can do when twisted to serve a political or selfish purpose that injures others.
The incredible aspect of this is the people who do these henious acts do believe that they are justified by their religious texts.
[ edited by orleansgallery on Jun 3, 2003 09:47 PM ]
posted on June 3, 2003 09:54:01 PM new
biker dude,
I appreciate your compliments about my shaven legs.
I am also part american indian. I hate all that trail of tears stuff. Its just awful, slavery etc. But, not all christians agreed with it. It was a different time period. But I can't let that throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak.
I don't look at saving the woman in the hut as conquering all problems in that area. I look at it on and individual basis. I look at my own son and think how horrid it would be if my culture did that to me.
posted on June 3, 2003 10:33:58 PM new
orleansgallery:
That fellow who they just arrested for murdering those people involved with abortion committed his acts in the name of christianity. Should we therefore conclude that it is a murderous religion, and that all of it's adherents are murderous at heart? Or should we conclude that he is a hateful, murderous individual who allowed his "faith" to become the excuse for his evil?
I would suggest to you that your example of the woman in Africa is simplistic in the extreme. While her faith may dictate a punishment for her offense, it is her culture which carries out that punishment. Religion has NO POWER except that which it is given by a dominant culture. There are people in the US, god fearing christians, who allow their underage children to drink rattlesnake poison and be bitten by snakes, letting god's will be done for their survival. Their local, dominant culture allows this practice to persist, even as other versions of christianity coexist with them in their little world of the hollers. Nobody bothers them. If they were practicing this in a big city they would have all had their kids taken from them and been locked up generations ago for child abuse. My relatives practice a version of Catholicism which, in years past, would have caused them to be excommunicated. They are Penitentes. Members of the Confradia (brotherhood) enact the passion of christ, including ACTUAL crucifixion, flagellation and torture. Young boys enter the Confradia at the age of 13, when they begin to participate.Their calling is considered a sacred one, and their commitment to participate is a life-long duty. There have been deaths involved over the centuries.The local cutlure, while not all followers of penitente catholicism, tolerates it..Religion, while an intricate part of culture, is not ALL of it.
You have challenged those here to "prove me wrong" before you'll consider their opinions. Nobody here can prove you wrong in matters of religion any more than you can prove yourself right, no matter how strident your tone. It all boils down to faith, and OPINION. Some here have tried to share opinions, but your only response is to belittle and challenge them.This is a pointless discussion, given those rules. Next time, if you really give a crap about anyone else's opinion, you should try to listen and discuss, rather than berate, belittle and challenge. My guess is you were just looking for a way to criticize Islam. If that is the case, why don't you be honest about it and do it without trying to act like you really have any "questions" about religion?
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on June 4, 2003 04:25:57 AM new
First, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I joined this thread against my better judgment, but it's good to hear (see) some other voices.
profe51
Or should we conclude that he is a hateful, murderous individual who allowed his "faith" to become the excuse for his evil?
Exactly the point I was trying to make about the Trade Center. It was not religion that flew into the Trade Center but those hiding behind it.
clivebarkerfan
Wicca, as it is practiced, is a peaceful religion. I had a first thought it was evil until I read up some on it. I'm glad I did because, unlike some here, I would have gone through life thinking wrongly of them.
Some interesting quotes from Wicca Practicers. They have a rather familiar ring to them.
We are not evil. We don't harm or seduce people. We are not dangerous. We are ordinary people like you. We have families, jobs, hopes, and dreams. We are not a cult. This religion is not a joke. We are not what you think we are from looking at T.V. We are real. We laugh, we cry. We are serious. We have a sense of humor. You don't have to be afraid of us. We don't want to convert you. And please don't try to convert us. Just give us the same right we give you--to live in peace. We are much more similar to you than you think."
"If you take the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." by a Native-American woman.
And, my personal favorite:
"I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush (R), as Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24. He disapproved of Wiccan soldiers having been given the same religious rights as others in the military.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jun 4, 2003 04:30 AM ]
posted on June 4, 2003 08:43:15 AM new
Do you want to know about the "woman in the hut in Africa?" At least three women and one man have been sentenced to death in Nigeria for adultery, each case being handled through local religious courts that adjudicate based on harsh Shah'ria Muslim law. One of those has had her sentence overturned. There is a large international outcry to free the other three.
However, like most issues, this one needs some context. The government of Nigeria is in meltdown. Police are highly corrupt and the secular courts have essentially shut down. This doesn't excuse or exonerate the Shah'ria, who essentially saw a chance to impose their ultra-harsh interpretation of Moslem law on the populace, but it does explain how they were able to do it. Even without the Shah'ria, however, life is pure hell in Nigeria as it is in many countries where the rule of law has been shattered.
There are definitely people suffering under religious law across the globe. Saudi Arabia is a good example of that. Because those abuses take place in a country that has a strong and functioning government, to me it makes a strong case for keeping organized religion away from government at all costs. (The Salem Witch Trials and - more recently - the lax view in Texas toward men who murder their adulterous wives - provide historical arguments supporting the same point.)
However, to leap from there to a condemnation of organized religion seems wrong to me. The fact is that the only faith we truly own is the one we find ourselves - this is what Cheryl, clivebarkerfan, kraftdinner and others are trying to tell you. I don't have much patience for people who are complacent about spiritual issues and swallow whatever line comes along. I do have immense respect for those posters I mentioned who are able to examine different views, even different religions, and found the path that leads them to peace. (My path led me right back to where I started - but that doesn't mean I never looked anywhere else.)
Finally, I will note that my question to you, orleansgallery, went completely unanswered. That is this:
Why do you keep bringing up the phrase "liberal" as if that had anything to do with the question at hand?
