posted on July 29, 2003 06:43:19 PM new
By Eric Auchard
NEW YORK (Reuters) - One out of 10 jobs in the U.S. computer services and software industry could shift to lower-cost emerging markets such as India or Russia by the end of 2004, a top computer consultancy said on Tuesday.
Gartner Inc., the world's biggest high-tech forecasting firm, said in a report entitled "U.S. Offshore Outsourcing: Structural Changes, Big Impact" that 500,000 of the 10.3 million U.S. technology jobs could move just in 2003 and 2004.
While professionals in the computer industry itself are likely to bear the brunt, the report predicts that one in 20 tech jobs in industry-at-large also could be moved overseas.
This is especially true in industries with high concentrations of knowledge workers such as banking, health care and insurance, the author of the survey said.
"Suddenly we have a profession -- computer programming -- that has to wake up and consider what value it really has to offer," Diane Morello, a Gartner vice president and research director who studies work force issues said in an interview.
"Offshore outsourcing" is the euphemism the computer industry uses to describe the transformation of software development, computer services and customer call-center work.
As a global economic recession has hit hard over the past two years, U.S. companies have embraced as never before a decades-old trend to hire educated workers overseas who can be employed for a fraction of the cost of U.S.-based programmers.
Just last week, software maker Siebel Systems Inc. (Nasdaq:SEBL - news) of San Mateo, California said it would cut 9 percent of its work force, or 490 jobs, and planned to move some operations overseas.
Executives of the world's largest computer and services company, International Business Machines Corp. were quoted recently as saying they had no competitive choice other than to expand software and semiconductor development overseas. The comments came to light in a recording supplied by a union seeking to organize IBM workers and supplied to Reuters. IBM now employs 5,400 workers in India out of a total work force of 316,000.
A JOBLESS TECH RECOVERY?
The debate by economists over whether the United States may now be experiencing a jobless economic recovery echoes disputes over high-tech job losses that heated up during the last technology recession a decade ago. These petered out quickly in the Internet boom of the late 1990s.
The recent acceleration of job losses actually began during the late 1990s when shortages of qualified U.S.-based workers led companies to turn overseas to countries such as India, Ireland and elsewhere for computer and Internet project work.
The mounting job losses are heating up as a political issue, with bills put forward by legislators in five U.S. states that would require workers hired under state contracts be American citizens or fill a special niche citizens cannot fill.
Morello said her study did not speculate on where such jobs were moving. But she indicated that India, Russia and other countries in Southeast Asia were the most likely locations.
She also pointed to how Canada has moved recently to position itself as a "nearshore" alternative to companies who have trouble shifting jobs to more distant "offshore" locales.
Electronic Data Systems Corp. (NYSE:EDS - news) of Plano, Texas, the world's second largest computer services provider, has already reached into Canada and many points beyond. EDS has begun promoting its "Best Shore" strategy of positioning software and customer service work in what it says are the most cost-effective locations around the globe.
EDS has 16 centers that range from New Zealand to India to Egypt, Poland, Brazil, and Canada.
The Gartner analyst said that based on her preliminary calculations that one in 10 software services jobs are at stake at computer vendors and 5 percent of technology jobs in the wider corporate world, at least 500,000 jobs will be moved. (Additional reporting by Caroline Humer)
posted on July 29, 2003 08:42:12 PM new
This is an interesting movement to prevent the loss of jobs to foreign countries.....Making It Illegal to Hire Abroad
posted on July 30, 2003 06:08:51 AM new
here is a reply by a hard working and maybe soon not working average American taxpayer, again i say, IMPEACH THIS PRESIDENT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE !!!!
Unpatriotic Americans
At a time when Patriotism is at a premium, and anyone who had uttered a derogatory comment about the war in Iraq was labeled a traitor or unpatriotic. I find it ironic that the big businesses that the right holds near and dear are the very same companies that are undermining our financial markets and are destroying the backbone of this country, which of course is the worker bee, middle class. I ask you what is more unpatriotic than betraying your countrymen and women? The continued decimation of the middle class will eventually lead to political instability this country hasn't seen in over 200 years.
I cant help, but think that large public companies would like nothing more than to see the return of slavery. Free labor, what could be better than that for profit margins? It seems that companies dont want to pay anyone, except for CEOs and other top executives of course.
Here's an idea, how about a nice stiff tax on companies that outsource to other countries or a serious tariff on companies that move their operations overseas to exploit both child labor and cheap labor.
Proud Patriotic Liberal American Richard Hagopian Security Manager
posted on July 30, 2003 09:03:04 AM new
Just to clarify.... you are suggesting that we all allow the government to dictate our business model to us and if we don't do what they want we should be fined? After we allow them to tell us where we are allowed to conduct business should we have them tell us how many employees we should have or what county we should locate it in so that they move jobs and taxes into poorer areas and then tax you more if you decide to operate where your market is instead.
I don't know about you but I think the government has enough problems running their own show, I don't need their involvement in my business.
As a consumer, if something appalls you, do something, boycott the company. Get your like minded friends to do the same. Those are the types of movements that change things. Stop sitting on your ass and waiting for the government to solve your problems. We are a population of nearly 300 million people, don't you think that is where the real power lies. Consumer backlash is infinitly more dangerous to a bottom line than a tarrif.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 09:49:08 AM new
Then maybe you should accept that the US is entering the world economy. Since Bush seems to want to rule the word it only makes sense that we will employ part of it too . I don't really have a problem with companies that have expanded their horizons enough to understand that this a world market and are finding ways to keep costs down and remain competitive in a weakened economy.
Neccessity is the mother of invention. Maybe it's time for us to build a new marketl. If the US expects to stay at the top of the heap, it's time for it's citizens to take control of their destiny rather than expect the govenrment to control it for them. Start thinking outside the box.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 01:15:28 PM new
The fact is we are losing our manufacturing jobs at record speed, and now the high tech jobs are going to leave. What does that leave? Wal-mart and McDonalds will become the big employers. We are entering a world ecomony and the USA will have the same low wages and poverty. Doctors, lawyers, and anyone who offers services will have to lower their costs. Nobody is a winner execpt the politicians and corporations.
posted on July 30, 2003 01:40:05 PM new
If that is the only thing a person can think of to do with themselves then you are correct, they will ended up being pushed farther and farther down the line. If however a person accepts that we are becoming part of a global economy and seeing where they can apply their skills in that area then there is much flourishing to do. Native english web translation services, importation faciliator for small businesses, US based supplier for international manufacturers and countless more. None of those jobs require even a college education. A little research and a little determination is all it takes. If people are going to survive in a world economy they may just have to expand their comfort zone a bit. The flood gates are open, you are not going to close them. You've got three choices, swim, tread water or drown and only one of those is going to actually get you anywhere. Of course you could always just move to India. Al those new call centers and such are desperate for experienced supervisors, middle and upper management people.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 02:14:39 PM new
Its all part of The Project For the New American Century
The Pnac is in power. Big Brother is coming.
Its going to get alot worse. Bush has already acused Iran and Syria of hiding WOMD.
They acused Syria of harboring Al Quida when Syria has been one of our strongest allies in hunting for them.
Makes you wonder why Bush hasnt mentioned the country that attacked us on 911. (Saudi Arabia)
Their whole country is one big terroist org.
Its their culture.
Thats like going to war with the aliens except you dont attack their homeworld.
posted on July 30, 2003 02:22:36 PM new
What the hell does that have to do with anything? As for the Saudi situation.... could you be any more paranoid?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 03:02:44 PM new
It's an especially tough time to send our best paying jobs to India in order to cut labor costs. Since this is a corporate cost cutting maneuver, I don't believe that new jobs, requiring no education such as you just mentioned, will be created. On the other hand, if it's true that the work force will be less qualified, that doesn't say much for technological development. With the prospect of having to move to India to accept a relatively low paying job, the number of qualified applicants for that type of job will be significantly diminished. You can't just pick up an electrical engineer who wants to move to India at the local donut shop.
Some states are considering legislation to make sure that state contract work is performed within US borders.
posted on July 30, 2003 03:48:16 PM new
We need to put a stop to outsourcing NOW... if it takes congress to pass a law stating that only so much will be allowed then so be it.
I am curious as to where all these "wonder" jobs are at that you seem will not require a college education?
NAFTA and anything like it has ruined this country and it is time people start opening their eyes to it.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on July 30, 2003 03:51:25 PM new
Wow, this is a sad story...
On April 17, Kevin Flanagan was let go from his job at Bank of America's Concord, Calif., division. Later that day, he committed suicide, shooting himself in the parking lot. His father, Tom Flanagan, says his son, a software developer with seven years at the bank, was troubled because his job was being sent overseas. "He knew for a year that Bank of America was dumping programmers and tech people, and he knew it was coming," the elder Flanagan says. "And he knew people from India were brought into his building and trained to do his job and sent back to New Delhi."
posted on July 30, 2003 04:19:00 PM newI am curious as to where all these "wonder" jobs are at that you seem will not require a college education?
Twelvepole, those jobs were mentioned by fenix... She said that they were "flourishing" The only requirement, according to fenix, is a "little research and a little determination".
Then, "sink, swim, tred water or drown" in the Brahmaputra River. LOL!
posted on July 30, 2003 04:40:58 PM new
Helen - which of the jobs that I mentioned require a college education of specialized training. Since you find it so ridiculous - why don't you point out the flaw. It's so easy to be glib, now lets try productive.
For review the ideas mentioned were...
1) Native english web translation
2) Importation faciliator for small businesses
3) US based supplier (wrong word used, distributor is more appropriate) for international manufacturers.
Why is everyone waiting for others to create jobs. I thought America was all about it's "Can Do" attitude. If no one will offer you the job you want then make your own. Find your passion, find your niche and define your own destiny.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 04:43:47 PM new
Apologies Helen, should of mentioned Fenix...
There are plenty of jobs still availble in the US... if you have the determination, unfortunately wages are dropping here because of this "Global" economy mentality... which is hard to swallow all at once...
But speaking of global... Europeans start with 6 weeks vacation per year... try to get that here just starting out...
posted on July 30, 2003 05:02:07 PM new
Helen - if you are not able to find fault do you just ignore the actual point or did it fly over your head? the point was not that you could bypass education, the point was that there are large holes in growth markets that can be filled by anyone with desire and determination regardless of their education level.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 05:29:52 PM new
You are not taking into consideration the fact that foreign workers are being trained here and then sent back to India ....
American jobs are being replaced with foreign workers.. The General Accounting Office will issue a report Sept 10 on the impact
of visas and investigation into offshore outsourcing.
Maybe you can save them some effort and tell them that everything is just hunky dory.
posted on July 30, 2003 05:45:18 PM new
Here is a article of interest. Since we are making china a superpower by sending our economy to them on a silver platter, it looks like they are putting the money to use.
posted on July 30, 2003 05:59:40 PM new
I am still waiting to see these jobs that don't require a college education....
Not one that you listed could be successful without college or many years of experience... and I doubt they will be paying a "living" wage.... if you don't have that degree... besides who the hell wants to help International Manufacturers? I certainly don't.
We need to slam the door shut...
However... if you want something that is still an up an coming job market... Medical Field.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on July 30, 2003 06:01:27 PM new
Why am I not surprised that you find it sad that the guy in your story above killed himself despite the fact that he knew for a year what was coming and that you find the concept of finding a career that you can control for yourself ludicrous.
There are a lot of people out there that have lost their jobs and found new ways to make a living. It's how you survive.
You can stand there and yell at the tide all day Helen but you are not going to stop it from coming in.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on July 30, 2003 06:46:14 PM new
That story of the suicide simply illustrates the situation that many workers find themselves facing now, fenix. The fact that you are not sensitive to that situation does not surprise me.
Read my comment again. I found your "points" ludicrous. I certainly don't find a career ludicrous. We are discussing "careers" which were formerly "controled" but are now being sent to India or China. Most people would find such a loss disturbing.
posted on July 30, 2003 07:12:50 PM new
Helen - I find it hard to feel bad for someone that saw what was coming a year down the road and did nothing. He had a year to contemplate the employment possibilities beyong this one job and the only thing he could come up with was suicide? Sorry - he gave up. He had no respect for his life why am I supposed to? I find it hard to find sympathy for a person with knowledge and education and a hell of an in for financing to launch a solo project and decided that suicide would be easier.
As for my point. You obviously did miss it. My point was that there are other things people can do. You don't have to wait for someone else to provide you with a job and an income. I helped take a company from concept to reality with a yearly growth rate that never fell below 20% and I cannot get a job right now. I gave up looking a year ago and started doing my own thing. Anyone who really wants to work can and will do it. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying it's possible, and it's a hell of a lot more fulfilling. There is nothing ludicrous about taking control of your own life.
I guess the difference in our point of views I don't bother being disturbed about things that are a natural occance of growth and cannot be changed. I don't mourn the job that is lost, I relish in the challenge of the job that can now be created. It keeps life interesting.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
. I don't really have a problem with companies that have expanded their horizons enough to understand that this a world market and are finding ways to keep costs down and remain competitive in a weakened economy.
