posted on August 1, 2003 01:05:31 PM new
Thank-you for taking the time to post that paws4God (great name btw!).
While I semi-understand what I've read so far in the Bible, I keep coming back to the same thought. God, in the Bible, is a separate entity that lives in heaven. In my mind, God is the life force (for lack of a better term) inside everything that's alive, so God is already a part of you. When you pray to God, you are praying to yourself because God is already there. There is no separate being. (Make sense so far?)
When bad things happen in the world, God is the first to be blamed. People ask, "why me?", or "how could you allow this?", or "when are you coming back to fix things?". People keep knocking at God's door, but nobody's there because nobody lives there... he already lives inside you as part of your make-up. So if God is part of you, then we're more "powerful" than we think, and the problems that we hand to God so often are problems that we already have the power within to solve because we ARE God. So, if we are God, then how can God do something more for you than you can do for yourself?
posted on August 1, 2003 01:23:57 PM new
wgm------
Thanks for posting the address to the site!
Really cool site with lots of resources! I have been wanting some cards or tracts to hand out and they have the perfect one.
posted on August 1, 2003 02:10:39 PM new
Kraftdinner------
I can see how you think since God is inside you there is no other God. That is exactly what the snake (Satan) told Eve in the garden. God will live in us IF we ask for forgiveness and ask Him into our lives but otherwise we are separated from Him. If you make mix up a cake mix and create a cake the cake has part of you in it because your work went into its creation. However that cake is not a person simply because it has your handiwork and effort in it.
As far as bad things happening on earth that is a very hard question sometimes, actually a lot of times. All I know is when Satan rebelled against God and wanted to be worshiped God cast him, and the angels who believed with Satan, out of heaven. God gave Satan and the fallen angels dominion over the earth and sky for a time. You cannot create darkness. Darkness is only the absence of light, the Light is God. I am not saying God is punishing you for your sins and that is why bad thinks happen. If that were true not one person would be alive right now. We all deserve death for our ways. I do know God allows bad things to happen sometimes to make us stronger but sometimes there is just no reason. We just have to believe. A wonderful book on that is "When God doesn't make sense" by Dr. James Dobson. Bad things even happen to Christians, sometimes more so because Satan loves to kick the ones who belong to God. But the bible says "what Satan means for evil God intends for good". I can't find exactly where that is at the moment though. I certainly have not had a wonderful life in many ways, my dad was an alcoholic (who is sober 23 years now), my oldest brother killed himself when he was 15, I almost died because I was anorexic, I had an abusive husband in my first marriage. I could go on but you get the picture. I have been blessed in a million ways more than cursed though. I had a wonderful sweet Christian grandmother who prayed for me constantly (her prayers are still alive in the ears of God), I have a wonderful Christian mother, I was never beaten or abused by my parents, I have a wonderful Christian husband now, and I have two sweet and wonderful step-daughters and the sweetest Christian son-in-law you could hope for. My blessing far out weight the bad. Yes bad things happen but do we allow it to make us bitter (the I(us)in the middle) or better people.
But God is the creator who created us. When God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden they were whole beings with their spirit connected to God. Eve believed Satan when he said "You will become like God if you eat of the tree". When Eve went against God's laws she set in motion events that we are still paying for. Adam and Eve cut the cord of their spiritual cord to God. They were saying they wanted to be God, just like Satan wanted to like God, thats why he was cast out of heaven. The created cannot be like the creator. We severed the personal relationship we had with God because he is pure and holy and can't look upon sin. In order to get us back he provided a way which, or who, is Jesus.
Before Jesus the people had to pay to have the priests make a sacrifice for their sins. God wanted a better way. People had to have the sacrifice made once a year. The old covenant, the sacrifice, wasn't meant to show us we could make ourselves presentable to God, it was to show us we couldn't. No matter how good we are or how much good we do we can't pay for our sin. The bible says, Not by works lest any man boast. God puts us ALL on level ground. We are All sinners not because we sin but we sin because we are sinners born of the flesh. Jesus came so sin could be paid for once for all. But as I said we have to ACCEPT that gift. When you ask Jesus into your life you become a new creation and the old passes away.----Therefor, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. II Corinthians 5:17-19
When you accept the gift of forgiveness the scales fall off your eyes and you see things in a whole new way and the weight of the world is off your shoulders.
posted on August 1, 2003 02:40:04 PM new
Geez, maybe it's Satan giving me all my thoughts!
Thank-you again paws4God. Although I trust your judgement that what you believe is right for you, I also hope that you will give some consideration to my interpretation of the whole thing as well.
We've discussed the Bible here, and although I appreciate the wisdom it contains, I also feel that it's no different than any self-help book. It all boils down to choice and balance (karma).
With what I've said, paws4God, can you answer how God can do more for you than you can do for yourself, in your own words?
posted on August 1, 2003 05:35:12 PM new
Kraft-----
God can and does everything for me. He is the very breath I breathe. I can't even begin to explain the peace and joy He has put in my heart. The only reason I am alive and breathing is because of God's grace and mercy. I can't really do anything without His allowing it. A lot of people think that is weakness or a crutch but it is the opposite. It takes a strong person to admit wrong and ask for help. God gives me strength to carry on. I have some health problems that tend to get me down but God give me physical strength. God has been gracious to open my husband's heart and he gave his life to the Lord 2 years ago....that is such a grand gift from God. He is my everything and not just a story but a real being with real love that never changes. The biggest thing God has done is dying for me to pay for my sin so I can spend eternity with Him. Jesus said "No man comes to the Father except by me. The way is narrow and not many will find it". God is totally just. Would you want a judge to let some people off because they are basically good and make others spend time in prison on his whim? We are all equal in the eyes of God. We either accept or reject His Son's payment. I didn't set up the plan God did.
You can at least give it try. Ask for yourself and God will show you. I have made MANY bad decisions in my life and regret most of them. I have tried many things and they always leave me empty and wanting something else. The one decision I have made that I have NEVER regretted is giving my life to the Lord. When you read the bible next time try reading John. It is the fourth book in the New Testament and very easy to read. It might answer some of your questions. Remember is a message of love and salvation. I will be praying for you. Keep asking questions though and you will find the way.
posted on August 1, 2003 06:20:53 PM newDid The Resurrection Really Happen?
The crucifixion of Jesus was especially well documented and accepted as fact. The crucial question then becomes, "Did Jesus rise from the dead, proving His claim to be God incarnate? Or did something else happen with His body? Or was He never dead at all?"
A key to this issue is the extreme local importance placed on handling this execution. Jesus' powerful, insightful speaking and many miracles had led the populace to request that He become king. This began to threaten the local political stability of the Romans and the religious power of the Jewish whom Jesus openly criticized. Both the absolute death of Jesus and the protection against a hoax were critical, since Jesus had claimed He would overcome death. Furthermore, He had already raised other people from the dead. As a result, all precautions were taken to secure His corpse (Matthew 27:62-66).
The Bible implies the cause of Jesus' death was cardiac arrest, indicated by blood and water from a spear thrust (medical experts confirm this).
To secure the body, a Roman guard was placed outside the tomb. Such a guard would have consisted of 16 soldiers, with a disciplined rotation for sleeping at night (every four hours, four would switch). The guards all faced the rigid Roman penalty of crucifixion if they slept outside of the assigned shift or deserted their post. The idea that all guards were asleep, considering the death penalty, is especially unreasonable.
To further ensure safekeeping, a two-ton stone was rolled in front of the tomb with Pontius Pilate's seal on it. Breaking the seal without the official Roman guard's approval meant crucifixion upside down.
The central issue -- unexplainable by Jewish leaders, especially in light of the many precautions -- is:
What Happened To Jesus Corpse If He Did Not Rise From The Dead As Indicated In the Gospel Accounts?
The official explanation is that the disciples stole the body while the guards were asleep (with the priests protecting the guards from the governor). This story was necessary only because no one could produce a dead body of Jesus, which would have stopped the resurrection story forever. Is a theft of Jesus body even remotely possible given that:
All 16 guards would have had to risk the penalty of crucifixion by sleeping while on duty or deserting. Surely at least one guard would be awake.
The disciples were in a state of shock, fear, and disarray, having seen their Master crucified. Is it reasonable to think they quickly created a brilliant plan and flawlessly executed it on the Sabbath day of rest?
What possible motive could the disciples have? If Jesus was not the Son of God as He claimed, stealing the body would create a lie with no apparent benefit, and death for no purpose for the disciples.
Analysis of Other Explanations
Was Jesus really dead? Crucifixion was more routine and was a longer, more visibly excruciating death than the electric chair is today. Is it likely that such professional executioners would not know death? The final spear thrust to the heart area was to ensure death. For such a political threat, they would be certain. If Jesus was not dead, what are the chances that a barely living person could move a two-ton rock from the inside of a tomb and escape a full Roman guard unnoticed?
Was the body stolen at night? Recognizing that no flashlights nor infrared sensors were available then, is it likely that a band of scared disciples carrying torches could bypass a full Roman guard, move a two-ton rock, and not be noticed? Furthermore, the Sabbath greatly limited movement. And again, for what motive?
Eyewitnesses to the Truth Died to Tell the Story
Martyrdom for a belief is not unique. But what kind of person would die for a known lie? Someone insane? Would all the disciples face hardship and death for a known lie? The disciples were with Jesus constantly for three years. They would certainly know the truth of the resurrection. Lying would serve no purpose since Jesus' ministry would then be moot. Yet historical record and reports about the disciples indicated they all died cruel deaths for their beliefs (except John). James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (Zebedee) faced sword deaths and other believers were crucified.
The Testimony of the Catacombs
Underneath Rome lie some 900 miles of carved caves where over seven million Christians, executed for their beliefs, were buried. Other believers hid and worshiped in these caves during the height of Christian persecution. The earliest known inscriptions in the walls were dated A.D. 70. Some early occupants probably communicated directly with eyewitnesses of Jesus. Since about A.D. 400, the Catacombs were buried and "forgotten" for over 1000 years. In 1578 they were rediscovered by accident. Today they can be seen as silent memorials to many who died rather than curse Jesus or bow down to an emperor's statue. Christian martyrs differed greatly from other world martyrs in that historical facts were the foundation of their beliefs -- facts verifiable at the time -- not just ideas.
Hostile Witnesses Turn Christian
Paul, a leading executor of Christians, gave up wealth, power, and comfort upon seeing the resurrected Christ, then wrote most of the New Testament. Two Sanhedrin members (not present when the Sanhedrin sentenced Jesus to death) were secret disciples. Unbelieving natural brothers of Jesus later became believers after the resurrection.
Indirect Archaeological Evidence
Evidence that the people in Jesus' time believed in the resurrection is found on caskets of bones (ossuaries) discovered in a sealed tomb outside Jerusalem in 1945. Coins minted in about A.D. 50 were found inside the caskets, dating the burial within about 20 years of Jesus' crucifixion. Markings are clearly legible, including several statements reflecting knowledge of Jesus' ability to overcome death.
Examples of writings (in Greek) of hope for deceased loved ones include: "Jesus, Help" and "Jesus, Let Him Arise." The caskets also contain several crosses, clearly marked in charcoal. This is powerful evidence that early Christians believed in Jesus' ability to triumph over death. It also ties the idea of victory over death to the cross.
Prior to the resurrection, "grave robbing" was not considered a serious offense. The resurrection changed that. An inscription found on a tomb in Nazareth warns that anyone found stealing from the tombs would receive the death penalty. Scholars believe the inscription was written as early as Tiberius (circa 37 B.C) or as late as Claudius (A.D. 41-54). In the latter case, it would have been shortly after the crucifixion. Naturally, Jesus' hometown of Nazareth would be an obvious city of "interest" to officials.
posted on August 1, 2003 06:26:32 PM new A Physician's View of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ
By Dr. C. Truman Davis
As a physician, I pursued the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord’s passion.
About a decade ago, reading Jim Bishop’s The Day Christ Died, I realized that I had for years taken the Crucifixion more or less for granted — that I had grown callous to its horror by a too easy familiarity with the grim details and a too distant friendship with our Lord. It finally occurred to me that, though a physician, I didn’t even know the actual immediate cause of death. The Gospel writers don’t help us much on this point, because crucifixion and scourging were so common during their lifetime that they apparently considered a detailed description unnecessary.
So we have only the concise words of the Evangelists: “Pilate, having scourged Jesus, delivered Him to them to be crucified — and they crucified Him.” I have no competence to discuss the infinite psychic and spiritual suffering of the Incarnate God atoning for the sins of fallen man. But it seemed to me that as a physician I might pursue the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord’s passion in some detail.
What did the body of Jesus of Nazareth actually endure during those hours of torture?
This led me first to a study of the practice of crucifixion itself; that is, torture and execution by fixation to a cross. I am indebted to many who have studied this subject in the past, and especially to a contemporary colleague, Dr. Pierre Barbet, a French surgeon who has done exhaustive historical and experimental research and has written extensively on the subject.
Apparently, the first known practice of crucifixion was by the Persians. Alexander and his generals brought it back to the Mediterranean world — to Egypt and to Carthage. The Romans apparently learned the practice from the Carthaginians and (as with almost everything the Romans did) rapidly developed a very high degree of efficiency and skill at it. A number of Roman authors (Livy, Cicer, Tacitus) comment on crucifixion, and several innovations, modifications, and variations are described in the ancient literature. For instance, the upright portion of the cross (or stipes) could have the cross-arm (or patibulum) attached two or three feet below its top in what we commonly think of as the Latin cross. The most common form used in our Lord’s day, however, was the Tau cross, shaped like our T.
In this cross, the patibulum was placed in a notch at the top of the stipes. There is archeological evidence that it was on this type of cross that Jesus was crucified. Without any historical or biblical proof, Medieval and Renaissance painters have given us our picture of Christ carrying the entire cross. But the upright post, or stipes, was generally fixed permanently in the ground at the site of execution and the condemned man was forced to carry the patibulum, weighing about 110 pounds, from the prison to the place of execution.
Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms. Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body. The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words to Thomas, “Observe my hands.” Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand.
A titulus, or small sign, stating the victim’s crime was usually placed on a staff, carried at the front of the procession from the prison, and later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head. This sign with its staff nailed to the top of the cross would have given it somewhat the characteristic form of the Latin cross.
But, of course, the physical passion of the Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, the one of greatest physiological interest is the bloody sweat. It is interesting that St. Luke, the physician, is the only one to mention this. He says, “And being in agony, He prayed the longer. And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.” Every ruse (trick) imaginable has been used by modern scholars to explain away this description, apparently under the mistaken impression that this just doesn’t happen. A great deal of effort could have been saved had the doubters consulted the medical literature. Though very rare, the phenomenon of Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.
After the arrest in the middle of the night, Jesus was next brought before the Sanhedrin and Caiphus, the High Priest; it is here that the first physical trauma was inflicted. A soldier struck Jesus across the face for remaining silent when questioned by Caiphus. The palace guards then blind-folded Him and mockingly taunted Him to identify them as they each passed by, spat upon Him, and struck Him in the face.
In the early morning, battered and bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night, Jesus is taken across the Praetorium of the Fortress Antonia, the seat of government of the Procurator of Judea, Pontius Pilate. You are, of course, familiar with Pilate’s action in attempting to pass responsibility to Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Judea. Jesus apparently suffered no physical mistreatment at the hands of Herod and was returned to Pilate.
It was then, in response to the cries of the mob, that Pilate ordered Bar-Abbas released and condemned Jesus to scourging and crucifixion. There is much disagreement among authorities about the unusual scourging as a prelude to crucifixion. Most Roman writers from this period do not associate the two. Many scholars believe that Pilate originally ordered Jesus scourged as his full punishment and that the death sentence by crucifixion came only in response to the taunt by the mob that the Procurator was not properly defending Caesar against this pretender who allegedly claimed to be the King of the Jews. Preparations for the scourging were carried out when the Prisoner was stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. It is doubtful the Romans would have made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in this matter, but the Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more than forty lashes. The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus’ shoulders, back, and legs.
At first the thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped. The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood.
The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body.
After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from His back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though He were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments. The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa.
In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed. Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the patibulum on the ground and Jesus quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.
The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified. As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.
As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short sentences recorded:
The first, looking down at the Roman soldiers throwing dice for His seamless garment, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
The second, to the penitent thief, “Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”
The third, looking down at the terrified, grief-stricken adolescent John — the beloved Apostle — he said, “Behold thy mother.” Then, looking to His mother Mary, “Woman behold thy son.”
The fourth cry is from the beginning of the 22nd Psalm, “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?”
Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins -- a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. One remembers again the 22nd Psalm, the 14th verse: “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.”
It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. Jesus gasps His fifth cry, “I thirst.” One remembers another verse from the prophetic 22nd Psalm: “My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou has brought me into the dust of death.” A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid.
The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues. This realization brings out His sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, “It is finished.” His mission of atonement has completed. Finally He can allow his body to die.
With one last surge of strength, he once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, “Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.
Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Our Lord died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.
Thus we have had our glimpse — including the medical evidence — of that epitome of evil which man has exhibited toward Man and toward God. It has been a terrible sight, and more than enough to leave us despondent and depressed. How grateful we can be that we have the great sequel in the infinite mercy of God toward man — at once the miracle of the atonement (at one ment) and the expectation of the triumphant Easter morning.
posted on August 1, 2003 06:41:16 PM new
auctionebayguy------
Great facts! There is also the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 200 (I think---it was a huge number whatever it is) prophesies. It would be impossible for anyone to fulfill even half that many on their own. Just being born in Bethlehem alone you can't do on your own. If anyone will read Isaiah 53, which was written many years (about 700)before Jesus was born, they will see all that Jesus fulfilled. It is "humanly" impossible to fulfill them, even just a handful. The Old Testament is full of prophesies about the coming of Christ and every single one was fulfilled by Jesus.
The Jews were wanting a King to free them of bondage of the Romans. Jesus came as their savior though not as an earthly king. Isaiah was there for them to see but they choose not to "see". But then no one took the life of Jesus but He willingly laid it down for that was His purpose of coming. When He returns next time if will be as a King....The King of Kings.
