posted on August 25, 2003 05:53:41 AM new "So, a poor old feeble man is tossed into the lion's den. How can you call this justice?"
"That damn sure looks like a judgement and conclussion to me."
Fenix, your remark, "The only thing that could have prevented that would have been keeping him in solitary. He walked in with a target and a timer on his back."
smacks of conclusion too...a foregone conclusion.
When someone as infamous to the criminal population as a child molester is imprisoned, it's the responsibility of the Department of Corrections to protect that individual. Hopefully, an independent investigation by the U.S. Attorney's office will determine why they failed.
posted on August 25, 2003 06:02:47 AM new"They failed miserably. He was a frail old man, and he should have been kept safe."
That statement makes my skin crawl. The young boys he molested, deserved to be kept safe also. <b>HE</b> failed miserably.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
posted on August 25, 2003 06:23:12 AM new "That statement makes my skin crawl. The young boys he molested, deserved to be kept safe also. <b>HE</b> failed miserably."
Of course he failed, wgm. But now, we are evaluating the penal system.
Vigilante justice should not be allowed to prevail inside the penal system. Do you want the prisoners to be the judge jury and executioner of this guy?
Helen
ed.to add quotes
[ edited by Helenjw on Aug 25, 2003 06:25 AM ]
posted on August 25, 2003 06:29:31 AM newDo you want the prisoners to be the judge jury and executioner of this guy?
Yes
It is sickening the way you seem to protect scum Helen, I wonder if you'd be so damned uppity about if this POS had "prayed" for someone in your family.
The penal system fails everytime a convicted murderer gets out and then kills again, the penal system fails everytime a robber or rapist get out and they return to old habits... it is bleeding heart liberals like you who allow it to fail, because you don't want them punished...
posted on August 25, 2003 06:39:13 AM new
The whole purpose if the penal system is for the SCUM that inhabit it... that is the problem, you want to hide the inhabitants like they are not a factor...that just won't work.
The are the biggest factor.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on August 25, 2003 06:58:43 AM new
::Fenix, your remark, "The only thing that could have prevented that would have been keeping him in solitary. He walked in with a target and a timer on his back." smacks of conclusion too...a foregone conclusion. ::
It was Helen. It was a forgone conclusion that any time a serial molester is put into jail, he is going to be a target. Why do you think he was not put into general population or given a cellmate? Of course if you think it iscorrect to make such prejudgements perhaps you should ptition the penal system to start putting serial molesters back into general population from day one.
::Hopefully, an independent investigation by the U.S. Attorney's office will determine why they failed. ::
I thought that article dealt with it pretty well. Understaffing. If there is only one guard on duty in a unit there is an opening for trouble.
At least we now have clarification on the cellmate assumptions.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 25, 2003 07:07:04 AM new
Twelvepole,
You are failing to recognize that the penal system has the responsibility to protect the safety of the inmates regardless of their previous criminal activity.
As Fenix said, "He walked in with a target and a timer on his back." This attitude, which is commonly held and surely known by the penal authorities should be considered when child molesters are incarcerated.
posted on August 25, 2003 07:22:52 AM new
The inmate advocate said that staffing concerns were just an excuse. "There's a culture of violence in these places that allows and even encourages these things to happen," she said, noting that the state's prison population of 21, 000 had declined in recent years.
posted on August 25, 2003 07:57:14 AM new
Imagine that - wow - now there is a revelation if ever I heard one ... there is a culture of violence in place inhabited by violent criminals. SHOCKING!
The only way to eliminate violence from prisons is to increase the guard population or stay in a perpetual state of lockdown.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 25, 2003 08:18:18 AM new
You truly are convinced that this convernment has nothing but sinister intentions. Now everytime a prisons budget is cut it is not because the state is in debt but rather that the legislators are trying to encourage more murders in the prisons? So what is the real hidden agenda behind cuts in education?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 25, 2003 09:13:40 AM new
What a leap, Fenix. You make an outrageous assumption bearing no relevance to my previous remarks or to what I believe and then you expect me to defend it.
You bring up budget cuts in the penal system which were not under consideration previously and accuse me of believing that they are sinister and then you expand on that to include educational budget cuts which have absolutely no relevance to the topic...but you believe that I think they are also sinister??? L O L.
Actually, I was thinking along the lines of the prisoner's advocate and considering the possibility of intentional redistribution of available employees within the prison facility....just a supposition. I'm sure that the guards schedules will be carefully examined during the investigation.
posted on August 25, 2003 09:43:31 AM new
::And if your evil intent is to "encourage things to happen", you might deliberately reduce the guard population.::
Yes Helen - I did make a faceious jump to show how ludicrous it is to state that understaffing is in actually an intential intent to enable further violence. I'nm willing to bet that you will find that there were probably less gaurds per inmate assigned to the area in question than other area of the prison. Of course that would be entirely logical since the prisoners in those areas are generally locked alone in their cells for 20 some hours a day.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 25, 2003 09:48:40 AM new
....to show how ludicrous it is to state that understaffing is in actually an intential intent to enable further violence.
posted on August 26, 2003 08:59:57 AM new
In Pelican Bay, CA the guards ran gladiatorial games for their entertainment. Prisoners were forced to fight each other and the guards ran a betting pool. Who are the barbarians?
Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
posted on August 26, 2003 09:02:41 AM new
What We Know, What We Say
About B Yard at Pelican Bay
On Wednesday, February 23 a melee broke out on general population B yard at Pelican Bay State Prison. The B facility is one of two 1,200 cell level IV maximum security units next to the nortorius Security Housing Unit (SHU).
A fight between rival racial groups erupted with one group attacking another. When all was said and done 24 assault-rifle shots were fired by corrections staff, injuring 15 prisoners and killing one. From the information we have, it seems shots were fired at a mass of prisoners within or emerging from the smoke of the tear gas—not at prisoners inflicting great injury or death on another (which is the only time lethal force is permitted).
Our analysis of the incident is as follows:
(1) A melee of this magnitude demonstrates a failure of penal management in insuring a safe environment for prisoners and staff.
(2) We criticize the necessity for and use of lethal force on prisoners. From reports, the majority of the prisoners sent to outside hospitals were shooting victims; few were prisoners injured by other prisoners. Though we do not condone prisoner violence, we question whether the injuries and potential injuries were enough to require the use of guns. If less lethal techniques continued to be employed the incident would probably have been quelled. In addition, on-the-ground officer intervention was absent though 80-100 were present.
(3) The practice of placing prisoners with hostilities on the same yard together is a regular one. Fighting results — this is a historical phenomenon — and is perpetuated by prison staff and officials. Ken Hurdle, CDoC "ombudsman", made this clear during negotiations with prisoners at New Folsom during a hunger strike (began in November 1999 on the anniversary of a one-year lockdown) when he responded to the prisoners' demand to spend their yard time with a group they got along with by saying "[t]hen you'd have two groups normally aligned on the yard at the same time. They would only have staff as their enemy." [Quoted from the Sacramento Bee 12/8/99].
Additionally, prisoners regularly report to us the hostile state of all maximum-security general population yards (i.e. High Desert, Salinas Valley, New Folsom, Calipatria). If they are not on the yard in tense situations, they are locked down as a result of a fight.
(4) Setting up prisoners continues to occur. We believe — if 89 weapons were indeed found on the yard after the incident — that staff allowed this to occur. Why? Many reasons: payback, control, mismanagement, for fun. Hands-on searches and metal detectors are utilized when prisoners enter the yard.
Placing known rivals on the same yard, "accidental" cell popping (when two cells are open at the same time), putting a prisoner in a cell with a known assaulter and setting up alleged sex offenders for attack are not uncommon. The word got out during the Pelican Bay trial (Madrid v. Gomez) in the early 1990s. Legal action and newspaper exposes a few years ago described the years of trouble and lethal guard gunfire at Corcoran. Recently, guards were convicted of setting up fights at Pelican Bay. But the problems persist.
One prisoner wrote us in January stating: "[t]he officially authorized, Corcoran-style gladiator fights are alive and well at Pelican Bay's B facility mainline. After the largest racial riot in prison history (8/30/99) black and white prisoners have been segregated completely and constantly for months.... Now they are attempting to stage a full-blown riot by releasing all prisoners to the yard [at the same time]. The only thing preventing this is the fact that staff cannot release even one-third of one building before a melee breaks out. Many prisoners have been stabbed, beaten, pepper sprayed and seriously injured". CPF has also heard reports of similar incidents on "A" yard from prisoners and their families.
Though CPF denounces the prison system as it currently exists, we suggest the following to improve conditions prisoners live under:
(1) Create an independent oversight committee with significant community and human rights representation that has the power to examine the overall management of the prison system, to investigate individual claims and has instant random access to all facilities.
(2) Create a conflict-resolution program between prisoners that includes desegregating so-called gang leaders. Instead of fanning the flames of rivalries (which would take a real overhaul of attitude and policy), work toward peace.
(3) Designate prisons that are "conflict free" where prisoners not in the mix can stay out of it rather than be forced in.
(4) Initiate meaningful programming that gives prisoners something constructive to do with their days.
(5) Provide adequate medical and mental health care.
(6) Train staff in conflict resolution and break down the "us v. them" mentality — beginning at the training academy.
(7) Change California's draconian sentencing structure: a large number of prisoners on Pelican Bay's mainline are doing long mandatory sentences with only 10-15% credit limits.
In all, CPF demands an independent investigation of this incident and the entire prison. We also call for the closing of Pelican Bay due to its consistent brutal and negligent treatment of prisoners.
Compiled by Staff at California Prison Focus
Edited to add:
Corporal Punishment
While the days of the officially authorized “gladiator fights” are past, there are still frequent setup fights at Corcoran. Known enemies are released to the same yard, just less frequently than a few years ago. Guards setup child molesters for assault by other prisoners. Cell doors “accidentally” pop open exposing prisoners to enemies who attack them. Guards have even paid prisoners with coffee, sex magazines or other favors to beat up a prisoner the staff doesn’t like. A prisoner was beaten to death by inmates allowed to complete their murderous task on a General Population yard through the negligence of guards. As one man said of the guards, “they use this place as an attack ground to torture and humiliate us. The guards set up fights more as sport, than as revenge.”
All from California Prison Focus
Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 26, 2003 09:15 AM ]
posted on August 26, 2003 09:28:19 AM new
I believe that those here who wish someone dead or glory in their murder are worse than the person who is murdered. They are no better than the slime they evolved from and should climb back under the rock from which they emerged. This is supposed to be a CIVILIZATION not a group of neanderthals. Vigilants justice has no place in a country of laws NOR does it belong in the "christian" mind.
Jesus Christ would be sorely embarrased by you so-called "Christians". He would have rather associated with the scum of the prison itself than your ilk....
Yes, the bastard was an evil person. But we are supposed to be civilized, and to applaud his murder is to approve the same thing to happen to you if someone "believes you have slighted them. It is all or nothing with the law. Either it applies to everybody, or nobody.
posted on August 26, 2003 09:47:47 AM new Right, Dave and Mlecher!
I wonder if my question will be answered by one of those who applaud this murder?
I'll ask again.
Colin said,
"Looks to me like the penal system is finally working."
Several posters have expressed an opinion similar to Colin's remark above.
If you were one of the two guards on duty, would you walk away or look the other way...in order to keep the penal system "working" as you think it should?
posted on August 26, 2003 10:16:23 AM new(1) A melee of this magnitude demonstrates a failure of penal management in insuring a safe environment for prisoners and staff.
Most American's are aware that the people in the prisons, and especially in maximum security facilities, are there because society wasn't safe with THEM in our environment. With all of these upstanding citizens housed together....oh yes....it's sooooo easy to keep them all safe from one another. wrong.....
(2)If less lethal techniques continued to be employed the incident would probably have been quelled.
I always wish the idiots that assume they know what would happen if....could be a guard in one of these institutions for a month. I'd guarantee they'd come out with a much different perspective on what probably would have happened. Give them first hand experience, I say. lol
[i](3)Fighting results — Yep, no tea parties with this group. They're mean motor scooters....not nice guys. Filled with hate, anger and too much free time. Give them hard labor...will cut down on the fights.
then...They would only have staff as their enemy." And I suppose you'd support them directing all their hostility and anger at the guards?
Additionally, prisoners regularly report to us the hostile state of all maximum-security general population yards.
Poor babies....are the guards the ones making the population yards hostile? NO...all the bad boys are. You know the ones that made life in society hostile for the citizens? Yes, and they don't like the meals they get fed either. My heart bleeds.....not.
If they are not on the yard in tense situations, they are locked down as a result of a fight. See...can't win. We keep them in lock-down and you complain, inhumane treatment. We let them out for 'air' and exercise and you still complain they're at risk from all the other meanies.
The poor babies....they're always being so mistreated. Always forgetting why they've ended up where they are.
posted on August 26, 2003 10:33:43 AM new
I assume then that you are in favor thumbscrews, the rack, stocks, dunking stools, electric shock and any other devices that might be used in the rehabilitation of prisoners.
posted on August 26, 2003 10:50:16 AM new
What would Jesus do? Although I don't have any religious beliefs, I have read the Bible and the stories about Jesus. Based on that, I don't believe that Jesus would approve of your attitudes about this case.
posted on August 26, 2003 10:57:58 AM new
Well said, Linda
I'm a Christian also; being a Christian doesn't mean anyone is perfect. But then Christianity has nothing to do with this thread - it has to do with our penal system (seems I read that earlier somewhere before)...
And for your answer, Helen - Honestly, I think my conscience would make me report the incident or get help...but would I run to do it? Can't answer that...may walk a little slower than normal, especially if the person was a child molester.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I am being as honest as I can...as honest as the mother of a six-year old son can be. See, I fit the profile of what the priest preyed upon.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
I agree that this priest, afflicted with an abnormal sexual orientation presented a horrific problem to the community and to his church. But, instead of help, he was ignored. The church looked the other way and, if my suspicion is correct, the Penal system failed him also.
I don't understand the mean spirited wish for his assassination inside the prison and the obvious support for the murderer which has been expressed throughout this thread.
posted on August 26, 2003 11:32:42 AM new
No Helen, I would do my job and tried to stop that POS from getting killed... but there is no evidence that the guards did not do their job, this guy planned to get that scum and succeeded... what is the matter you don't like goal setting?
Christian beliefs do allow for capital punishment...
How about answering my question asked AGAIN... what would you think of this priest if he had prayed from one of your children?
Pretty easy to pass judgement when it doesn't really effect you.
posted on August 26, 2003 11:50:07 AM newHow about answering my question asked AGAIN... what would you think of this priest if he had prayed from one of your children?
I've been scrolling a lot lately and missed your question, twelvepole. The answer is simple.
I would think that he is a sick man with a problem that cannot be easily corrected and I would want him in jail...locked up so that he couldn't bother another child again.
posted on August 26, 2003 11:52:08 AM newChristian beliefs do allow for capital punishment...
And pray tell...where?
When the adulteress was to be stoned to death for her crimes, AS WAS THE LAW, Jesus Christ said "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone" All the accusers left and neither did Christ, who had every right to condemn her being the Son of the Father, want her dead.
Boy, if that doesn't justify the killing of someone I don't know what is.......
I see that the "christians" here are merely selective readers who use the Bible to promote their hate and lust for venegence.
- Harry Thompson