posted on October 31, 2003 07:12:22 AM new
What's left of the noble tradition of assertive liberal internationalism in the Democratic party is now gangrenous. The rot has gotten so bad that even some principled Democrats are amputating themselves from their own party. Retiring Democratic Senator Zell Miller announced on Thursday that he will endorse President Bush for re-election.
"This does not mean I am going to become a Republican," Miller said in a written statement. "It simply means that in the year 2004, this Democrat will vote for George Bush."
Miller's decision was prompted in part by his disgust with the Democratic presidential field. "It makes me ashamed. It's a disgrace for anyone to talk about - talk like that in a time of war," he told Fox News' Sean Hannity. "Using this war for political advantage can only give hope to our enemies. And when you do that, that's going to cost lives."
Miller's decision is the logical consequence of a party that, at the national level, has become consumed by appetite - for power, for payback, for partisan gain - and nothing more.
Take the Bush administration's $20 billion request for undoing the damage of decades of Iraqi dictatorship and war. Whether they think the war was necessary or not, reasonable people of all political persuasions outside the arena of partisan politics understand that the task of reconstructing Iraq is immensely necessary.
If the United States were to "bring the boys home" now, Iraq would implode. America would be seen as not merely a bully (which is not always bad, but rarely good) but a bully with a glass jaw - which, as every thinking person must understand, would be an invitation to disaster of precisely the sort that left the World Trade Center in ruins.
Of course, except for the odd character actors at the left end of the screen in the Democratic presidential debates, the leading candidates do not say they are in favor of immediate withdrawal. Rather, they spew clouds of verbiage about why we need to have a "plan" and insist that until we have a "plan" we should not spend money on Iraq.
Senators John Kerry and John Edwards voted for the war but against spending any money on Iraq's reconstruction. Wesley Clark and Howard Dean - the Democratic frontrunners - didn't get to vote, but they hold similar positions on reconstruction. All four now take the position of "If Bush is for it, Democrats must be against it."
Even the noble exceptions of Richard Gephardt and, to a lesser extent, Joseph Lieberman - who voted for the reconstruction funds - often couch their positions in terms that show they want to be seen as close allies of the naysayers.
Of course, the administration does have a plan. And central to that plan is, well, spending money to rebuild Iraq. Exactly what does a good liberal have to complain about?
For decades, or even a century, we've been hearing a host of propositions from liberals. Crime and violence are symptoms of poverty. The United States must do more than simply drop bombs; it must alleviate the "root causes" of terrorism, hopelessness, etc. America must be internationally oriented, looking to engage the world and help the unfortunate. It is in America's vital interests to come to the aid of the downtrodden. And, most recently and relevantly, America must get into the business of nation building.
All of this has been defenestrated by a Democratic party leadership that no longer spouts its Clinton-era mantra that partisanship should end at the water's edge. Instead, as Miller notes, even as we are fighting a guerilla battle where the enemy defines victory not in military terms but in its ability to weaken American resolve at home, Democrats are crassly undermining the safety of our troops, the credibility of our nation and the integrity of their own political philosophy by giving the terrorists precisely the victories they crave.
Every single good thing about liberalism in foreign policy would have the Democrats seeking more money for Iraq, especially now that the U.N. supports our efforts. In the tradition of FDR, Truman, Kennedy and Sen. Henry Jackson, liberals should be the ones demanding that we send more teachers, more doctors, more librarians and more troops to protect them. They should be standing on the tarmac helping to load another shipment of soft-ice-cream machines and Ping-Pong tables bound for Fallujah, Tikrit and Basra.
They should support it because it's the "nice" liberal thing to do, and they should support it because any sober-minded assessment of our interests dictates that we need to do it. By not supporting our efforts for either reason, they advance the rot of their principles and resurrect the impression that liberals cannot be trusted on foreign policy.
But these Democrats don't care, or at least they don't care enough. They see each setback in Iraq as a political opportunity. And they should be ashamed. Just ask Zell Miller.
Jonah Goldberg is editor of National Review Online, a Townhall.com member group.
posted on October 31, 2003 11:11:10 AM new
Bear, even Democrats can be baked. Any person that thinks because you are at war, you HAVE to support the person(s) that put you there, is beyond laughable. Iraq had nothing to do with 911, or didn't you hear?
posted on October 31, 2003 01:27:28 PM new
Kraft, Senator Miller stated what is obvious to many of us. The fact that he is a Democrat shows that Democrats are starting to realize the errors of their ways.
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on October 31, 2003 02:18:24 PM new
"Iraq had nothing to do with 911, or didn't you hear?"
As said in the article itself:
"America would be seen as not merely a bully (which is not always bad, but rarely good) but a bully with a glass jaw - which, as every thinking person must understand, would be an invitation to disaster of precisely the sort that left the World Trade Center in ruins. "
We cannot pull out now or 9/11 or something worse could easily happen again. It would only encourage our enemies. Saddam & Iraq may not have been involved in the planning or execution of the 9/11 attack, but it's all inter-related now.
"Any person that thinks because you are at war, you HAVE to support the person(s) that put you there,"
Of course not. But Miller supports the war and thinks we should continue. If EVERY Democratic candidate wants to pull out, then what choice does he have?
If all the Democrats want to be the "Anti-Bush," and most Americans think Bush is even PARTLY right, then they don't have a chance. Let's assume for minute that Bush is wrong on 50% of his policies. If the Democrats always take the opposite stance no matter what, they're always going to be 50% wrong too. If they're ALL half wrong, then why not take the evil we know over the evil we don't know?
-------------------
Replay Media
Games of all kinds!
posted on October 31, 2003 02:27:07 PM newROTFLMAO
Then what do do think of this worthless collection of draft dodgers, deserters, and cushy service types? It must make you so proud to follow such a brave group of men.ROTFLMAO
Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."LOL
House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service" (1)
Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)
Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.
Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units..."
Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.
posted on October 31, 2003 02:35:22 PM new
And from the same page, the group who did the dirty work so your Heros could cower.
Prominent Democrats
Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon.
Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Ted Kennedy(D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)
Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
Gray Davis, California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
posted on October 31, 2003 04:07:54 PM new
Interesting article bear. It asserts "some principled Democrats"are leaving the party, but only documents one. Tell us, which other prominent Democrats are "starting to realize the error of their ways"? Bet you can't document 2 more
___________________________________
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken
posted on October 31, 2003 04:17:02 PM new
Wasn't Zell the one who endorsed Repulican draft dodger Chambliss over Vietnam vet Cleland who lost both legs and an arm in Nam? And didn't Chambliss label Cleland as unpatriotic?
I guess the neo-cons have very low standards when it comes to their leaders.
posted on October 31, 2003 04:30:51 PM new
miscreant
Please help me:
ChickenHawk CheerLeader Bear1949, has left me a little confused;
The 2nd list of Prominent representatives are the antiAmerican ones....NO??
And the 1'st list of Yella'Bellies are the REAL Americans??????? (or so says bear)
Yella'Bellied'Pink_Gosh'ChickenHawks...
never far from the nest;
a 'protected' species.
& Sharp as a bowlin'baaalltoo!
Here's another list.
Widely accepted but unsubstantiated.
IQs of each president
147 Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)
132 Harry Truman (D)
122 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R)
174 John F. Kennedy (D)
126 Lyndon B. Johnson (D)
155 Richard M. Nixon (R)
121 Gerald Ford (R)
175 James E. Carter (D)
105 Ronald Reagan (R)
098 George HW Bush (R)
182 William J. Clinton (D)
091 George W. Bush (R)
posted on October 31, 2003 06:46:47 PM new
For all your slams, smears & otherwise normal cowardly comments, remember that Miller is one of your FELLOW democrats, commenting on other FELLOW democrats.
So slam away ye cowards & backstabbers, your are only furthering your own demise.
Prof, It is presumed that Senator Miller is referring the rank & file democrats, not just the elected officials. List 2 don't have to, it was Millers statement, not mine.
But if not voting for a demo presidential candidate counts as leaving the party, add former NYC Mayor Ed Koch to the list.
"I think [Bush has] been terrific. And I have never voted in the past for a Republican president. ... But I am voting for George Bush this time around. And I will tell you why. He has created what is now known as the Bush Doctrine, equal to the Monroe Doctrine, and what is the Bush Doctrine? That we will go after the terrorists and the countries that harbor them. And he's kept his commitment, unlike anybody else in the world. And certainly unlike any of the nine or so Democratic candidates for president. And the worst one is Howard Dean. I mean, that's McGovern II." - Former New York Mayor Ed Koch, Fox News' "Hannity & Colmes," 9/11/03
Austi Bear1949, has left me a little confused
Didn't take much effort to leave you that way.
Question? How many Austbounty's does it take to shear a sheep?
Answer: None, they don't sheer their bed partners.
MISCREANT....the article is about demo leaving the demo party. What relevance do your inane posting have to do with the topic?
Does it server to inflate your easily deflated ego. Oh. I just remembered you're the type that gets drunk and becomes a legend in you own mind....
Lets see, how many U.S. presidents have MBA's.
Only 1 & like it or not he is the current President of the USA.
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on October 31, 2003 07:16:11 PM new
Just keep on worshiping those chicken-hawks and one lone neo-com democrat.
MISCREANT....the article is about demo leaving the demo partyThis does not mean I am going to become a Republican," Miller said in a written statement."
Pehaps you have a problem with reading comprehension?
Lets see, how many U.S. presidents have MBA's.Only 1 & like it or not he is the current President of the USA. So what.
posted on October 31, 2003 08:22:03 PM new
Evir s..ins I tuk the E.vel..in Wood..hus sped red’in curs,
My red’in has improvd
w.u…wu..wu..wu..n.duh….fully
& comprension has improvd,.... wunhundert purcent.
Dumbya 1973
posted on October 31, 2003 10:23:11 PM new
bear, I'm not sure which statement you're referring to as Miller's, but this one is yours:
...Democrats are starting to realize the errors of their ways.
To say that Zell Miller, or for that matter Ed Koch is representative of Democrats in general is like saying that Pat Buchanan is representative of Catholics or that John McCain is representative of Republicans. The author of this article proposes a trend of Democrat defection, and justifies it's argument with one example. Not much of a trend, if you ask me.
___________________________________
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken
posted on November 1, 2003 05:21:39 AM new
I fail to see the difference between Bear's article and many many articles posted here by President Bush bashers... Bear added an "opinion" to his article, I fail to see why he has to provide another example... but even if he did, the comment of "they don't represent the democratic party" would ring again.
The economy had a GREAT quarter and if this 4th quarter follows suit... the Dems can nominate whomever they want, President Bush will be there until 2009 (Jan)
posted on November 1, 2003 05:51:39 AM new
Bear posted an article about some neo-con democrat supporting Bush. Big deal. It is hardly surprising that Zell Miller would go against his own party.
The fact is this oil war is lead by a bunch of neo-con chicken-hawks whose motto should be "Born to Kill not Serve".(NH Gazette).
How liberal of you and Bear to forgive your leaders for their past and support them now. Especially since they want to send off other peoples children to do what they would not do, serve their country in war.
And bear brings up Ed Koch to support his view? ROTFLMAO!!!!! The guy who could not even handle being The Peoples Court judge?
posted on November 1, 2003 06:11:32 AM new
What does having served or not served have anything to do with it?
That is all I see from you... He was ELECTED President and there is now the Commander-in-Chief, but he does not make military decisons alone and does rely on his commanders in the field.
Not those who spout "can't or "won't" but those that will at least try.
He has stated we will go after terrorists and any that support them... Saddam did support terroism
This President has a backbone and for that alone he has my vote.
I survived the Carter Administration, I refuse to allow another of his ilk to come into the oval office again....
posted on November 1, 2003 06:33:43 AM newbut it's all inter-related now. It sure is. Especially with binLaden supporters calling for more attacks against our troops in Iraq.
-------------
miscreant - I didn't see Clinton's name on that list. And no matter what anyone says, President Bush DID receive and *honorable* discharge. HONORABLE...they don't give those to deserters.
-------------------
profe - ...Democrats are starting to realize the errors of their ways. I'd think one could see the proof that it wasn't only one or two democrats taking that stand. All one has to do is look at the 2002 elections so see that many democrats felt their party no longer represented them...and voted in republicans. That's what changed the majority in Congress.
posted on November 1, 2003 08:25:02 AM new
OK Prof, I stand corrected. I should have QUALIFIED my statement by saying, "smart democrats are starting to realize the errors of their ways"
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on November 1, 2003 01:03:11 PM new
Well Bear, how did you feel about draft dodgers, deserters, easy timers when you were in Nam? Did you ever think that one day they would become your neo-con heros? You must be so proud of them. ROTFLMAO
OK Prof, I stand corrected. I should have QUALIFIED my statement by saying, "smart democrats are starting to realize the errors of their ways." Zell Miller and ED Koch?. You neo-cons can have them.ROTFLMAO
President Bush DID receive and *honorable* discharge. HONORABLE...they don't give those to deserters They do when their daddy is a wealthy congressman and their record REDACTED.
12, This President has a backbone and for that alone he has my vote. And the fact he ducked service, spent 9/11 fleeing across the country, went on "vacation" right when the Iraq war started means he has "backbone"? ROTFLMAO You neo-cons sure have low standards for your heros.
He was ELECTED President No he wasn't. He was appointed by the neo-cons on the Supreme court and Gore got more votes than bush.
The chicken-hawks motto "Born to Kill not Serve".(NH Gazette).
posted on November 1, 2003 01:54:13 PM newThey do when their daddy is a wealthy congressman and their record REDACTED. Redacted? To put into a frame? [not clear here]
There is no difference between Bush getting out early because he was going to Harvard or Clinton. Just like clinton, who's uncle helped him. He signed up for ROTC to avoid being drafted. Then backed out of his committment when he drew a lower draft #.
posted on November 1, 2003 03:37:41 PM newMISCREANT APPARENTLY YOU CANNOT READ, YOU BUTT INTO A THREAD WITH WHAT IS LEFT OF YOUR BRAIN STEM & INJECT A TOPIC THAT IS OF NO CONCERN OR USE IN PROMOTING THE TOPIC
YOU MIGHT TRY STARTING YOUR OWN MISDIRECTED TOPIC ON AN ITEM THAT NO ONE GIVES A S**T ABOUT
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on November 1, 2003 05:46:40 PM new
Why bear, the title is "War: What are Dems Good for? Absolutely nothing" and I merely pointed out the Dems record in war.
Of course I also pointed out the neo-con republican chicken-hawks leaders records in war which does not shine quite as bright as the dems records. Can I help it if facts do not exactly fit into what you want to believe? They were not there when it was their turn and you think we should blindly follow chicken hawks?
Of course you probably think Zell Miller and ED Koch represent Democrats.ROTFLMAO
The chicken-hawks motto "Born to Kill not Serve".(NH Gazette)
posted on November 1, 2003 05:53:15 PM new
Oh yeah, as far as butting into one of your threads, if you don't like it go post your lies on some neo-con board where they will all ditto you to death. If you can't take feedback try another board.
I believe that having served is not the issue--it's the deliberate evasion of regular service while accepting the advantage of special treatment because your daddy is rich and powerful.
Then to acquire political position by the same rich and powerful daddy and turn around and use that undeserved power to send troops to their deaths in an illegal war is scandalous.
George Bush defines chickenhawk.
posted on November 2, 2003 07:25:55 AM new
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other’s consent.
- Abraham Lincoln
Force is all-conquering, but its victories are short-lived.
Abraham Lincoln
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
With malice toward none, with charity for all, ...let us strive on to finish the work we are in, ...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865), Second Inaugural Address, Mar. 4, 1865
I am for those means which will give the greatest good to the greatest number.
Abraham Lincoln
It often requires more courage to dare to do right than to fear to do wrong.
Abraham Lincoln
What is conservativism? Is it not the aherence to the old and tried against the new and untried?
Abraham Lincoln
Those who would deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, cannot long retain it.
Abraham Lincoln
To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Abraham Lincoln
Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?
Abraham Lincoln
He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help.
Abraham Lincoln
posted on November 2, 2003 08:35:06 AM new
miscreant
You have some former 'prominents' there, but you did not put in Former President Bush, didn't he serve in WWII?
Bob Dole, I think he was also in WWII
What is this?
Members of the 107th Congress who have served in the Military:
Of the 435 Members of the US House of Representatives:
• 129 have had Military Service - 78 Republicans and 51 Democrats (to include service in the United States Coast Guard and USCG Reserve).
• 96 Members have
served on Active Duty.
• 64 have served in the Reserve Components. (includes National Guard)
(Note: Some Members have had service in more than one component.)
• 30 are Combat Veterans.
• 56 were/are Officers.
• 44 were/are Enlisted.
(Note: Some members were both enlisted and officers, others did not specify)
Of the 100 Members of the United States Senate:
• 38 have had some Military Service - 22 Republicans and 16 Democrats (to include service in the United States Coast Guard).
• 29 Members have served on Active Duty.
• 16 have served in the Reserve Components. (includes National Guard)
(Note: Some Members have had service in more than one component.)
• 12 are Combat Veterans.
• 22 were/are Officers.
• 7 were/are Enlisted
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posted on November 2, 2003 11:15:35 AM new
Miscreant, you've parroting Helen. Haven't you ever had an original thought.
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on November 2, 2003 07:15:51 PM newMiscreant, you've parroting Helen. Haven't you ever had an original thought.
({Snicker Snicker}) Bwaa Ha Ha. Have you ever heard the term ditto-head? How about the large chorus of DITTO every time some neo-con parrots a lie? All you do is cut and paste lies and deceit from every neo-con rag you can find without a thought about originality and Helen and I seldom post about the same thing.
Oh yea, I forgot you have a problem with reading comprehension.
12, one good quarter out of 11 quarters is a very impressive record. Just curious, do you know how many new jobs were created in this country?
Miscreant, you have not served; does that mean you are not a good leader? It sure would qualify me to be a neo-con leader.
[ edited by miscreant on Nov 2, 2003 07:18 PM ]
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