posted on December 12, 2003 10:50:52 AM new
Cheryl - Helen, you and Linda are me and my sister-in-law.
I can't believe that for even a moment. You and helen may agree politically, but you are worlds apart in your interactions with other posters who disagree with your views.
posted on December 12, 2003 01:46:04 PM new
Oh you are so right on that one, Helen. I will and I already have! It's happened on the eBay board and here as well.
posted on December 12, 2003 06:06:37 PM new "He is very consistent with his views and seems to be the only one with some sort of plan"
Although it was kind of Fred, as a Bush supporter to make this big concession and credit Kucinich with consistentcy, I would like to point out that Kucinich is not the only candidate with a plan and furthermore that Kucinich's plan is very comprehensive rather than as Fred called it..."some sort of plan". I listed each of the nine candidates in this thread with links where you may read their position on issues.
A lot of good ideas for the improvement of public policy in America are listed on John Edwards issue page, here. Although his plan is impressive, he, along with Kucinich, is considered irrelevant by the media.
posted on December 12, 2003 07:30:31 PM new
LOL helen - Linda, I am sure that if anyone insulted Cheryl that she would respond appropriately, just as I do.
I was *not* referring to when either of you are 'insulted'.
posted on December 12, 2003 08:09:39 PM new
Oh linda, stop gossiping and pay attention to the topic.
And, what is the Bush plan???
"Everything we know suggests that Mr. Bush's people have given as little thought to running America after the election as they gave to running Iraq after the fall of Baghdad. And they will have no idea what to do when things fall apart."
Paul Krugman: 'Looting the Future'
Yesterday, www.kucinich.us disappeared from Google and other search engines. There is reason to believe that someone sent very numerous requests to search engines requesting that the site be listed (which it already was), and that as a result it was removed. Google considers programs that submit to hundreds of search engines at once as spam and removes sites using these tools from its indexes. It's unlikely but conceivable that this was even done by an overzealous supporter.
The last thing you should do is contact the search engines. But if you are a supporter, you should do this right away: put a link to www.kucinich.us on any website you control, and make the link use the words "Kucinich for President," and put the www.kucinich.us address in the signature of your Emails. Despite this setback, the site had its biggest day ever yesterday, so this is no time to get disheartened!
WHAT ARE PRIMARIES FOR?
The Democratic caucuses and primaries are the time to support the candidate who has the best chance of defeating George W. Bush. Clearly, that candidate is Dennis Kucinich. The primaries are not the time for supporting the candidate who you think has the best chance of winning the primaries. That's exactly as useful as staying home. Why is Dennis the one to beat Bush?
1.-Dennis' platform fits his record. He opposes the "PATRIOT Act" now, and is the only candidate who voted against it. He opposes the war now, and is the only candidate who voted against it or who opposed it from the start. And he is the only one who will bring our troops home in 90 days.
2.-Dennis cannot be attacked for planning to cut services or raise taxes because he is the one candidate with the guts to cut the bloated Pentagon budget and end the occupation of Iraq. He makes proposals and explains how he will pay for them. And his tax plan is laid out in detail at http://www.kucinich.us/taxes_under_kucinich.php
3.-Dennis and most Americans want single-payer universal health coverage. President Bush and most other candidates want to keep the HMOs and private insurance companies in charge.
4.-Dennis is the only candidate with a plan to end NAFTA and withdraw from the WTO, replacing these corporate trade agreements with fair bilateral trade based on workers' rights, human rights, and the environment. The other candidates side with the current President in wanting to maintain NAFTA and the WTO.
5.-Dennis has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for Congress in 1996.
6.-Dennis' Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.
7.-Dennis, unlike some other candidates, opposes the death penalty, will end the war on drugs, supports the Kyoto treaty, will take us to 20 percent renewable energy by 2010, and will back no justice who will not uphold Roe v. Wade.
8.-Dennis attracts third party voters and Ralph Nader supporters.
9.-Ohio has 20 electoral votes. It is the state that is key to national victory; only two candidates in the 20th century have won the presidency without carrying Ohio.
posted on December 14, 2003 10:17:29 AM new
Thanks Cheryl for posting this.
I called my local ABC station the morning you posted and ask if they had decided who the Vice President would be yet. After I told them what I thought about their handling of the Democratic candidates of course.
They gave me a phone number for their New York offices. I thought it would be to their hot line again. It wasn't.
The guy on the other end in NY said some surprising things..... There are reporters out there who are trying to make a difference. The network honchos just don't want to listen or air it. Too bad they can't all become whistle blowers.
I wish I weren't an independent sometimes. I would like to work for a party I trust.
Maybe Dennis and Hillary could start a third party? One could be VP, the other Pres. Doesn't matter who takes which office.
I read somewhere on this board you were ask to go to the Dem's convention. Congrats! I hope you accepted.
posted on December 14, 2003 10:40:37 AM new
aposter
Our local paper had a surprisingly great article about Dennis today. Actually, this is only part of it. He got a couple of full page articles. I think sounding off to Ted Kopple was the best thing he's done so far!
A Don Quixote campaign
12/14/03
Stephen Koff
Plain Dealer Washington Bureau Chief
Rumney, N.H.- Dennis Kucinich is lost in the woods.
A small caravan of cars carrying the congressman, staff, volunteers and reporters has gone up a snowy road in the foothills of the White Mountains and back, making several U-turns and finally stopping in the dark. Aides to the presidential candidate know they must be somewhere near the rustic home that's holding a house party - a casual meet-and-greet event - for arguably the most liberal contender in the Democratic field.
Kucinich, ill-dressed for the mountains in a pin-striped suit, blue print tie and black dress shoes, joins reporters on the road plotting a possible snowball fight. But before things heat up, a stranger's car approaches, and the driver asks: "Are you going to the Eckleins'?"
Well, yes. And so Kucinich jumps in, before the driver seems to realize that a man running for president of the United States is now riding shotgun in her car.
Once he was lost, now he's found.
That moment Wednesday night is in a way emblematic of the Kucinich for President campaign: out in the wilderness compared with operations like President Bush's and Howard Dean's, and headed off the beaten path.
His is a campaign preaching world peace, health care without insurance and education for all.
It is a campaign by a little- known Cleveland congressman whom many in mainstream politics write off as incidental.
His own assessment: "I think I'm the only Democrat who has a chance of beating George Bush."
Kucinich traipsed across snowy New Hampshire last week using lines like that, dining on vegetarian sushi and soy crackers in the middle seat of a rented Ford van speeding to event after event. Yet, this day, he was not incidental - he was in demand - thanks to his performance at Tuesday night's Democratic debate at the University of New Hampshire.
ABC's Ted Koppel, noting that Kucinich and fellow underdogs Al Sharpton and Carol Moseley Braun lack money, big political endorsements and support in the polls, asked: "When do you pull out?"
Kucinich was offended and fired back, accusing the newsman of focusing more on the process than on the ideas of the candidates. "Now I may be inconvenient for some of those in the media," he said, "but, you know, I'm sorry about that."
The audience loved it, and Kucinich's performance was mentioned at every stop of his swing through the Granite State, which ended Thursday.
"Qualitatively, it may have launched my campaign," Kucinich said later, biting forkfuls of nondairy chocolate cake - he avoids all food from animals - as the van sped through a cold rain. The public "saw a candidate willing to stand up and address the issues."
The impact might not last, but Kucinich clearly was reveling in it. Could he spare a minute to join Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala in CNN's traveling bus studio in Concord? Of course. Could he get to a Manchester TV studio by 5 for a Fox News interview?
He tried - "I want to do this thing," he told Paul Costanzo, his deputy campaign manager and security chief, emphatically. But they were headed in the opposite direction because an audience of health care professionals was waiting for him at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon.
Meantime, he had reporters from The New York Times, Boston Globe and The Plain Dealer, among others, following him around, though their trips had been planned before the debate.
In other words, Dennis Kucinich - already with a staff and volunteers to drive him, feed him while en route, make calls, schedule his travel, pack his bags - had a campaign in earnest.
His audiences, though, remained small.
At Derek Owen's 200-acre farm near Hopkinton, about 25 people from the Northeast Organic Farming Association were asking for his positions on agribusiness, government-mandated testing in schools and marijuana.
He told Owen, 73, that he would use the Justice Department to enforce antitrust laws so corporations no longer controlled agriculture.
He told Ted Whittemore, a middle school teacher from Claremont, that he would enlist the help of teachers to create a system that taps children's creativity and de-emphasizes "this harsh and rigid approach to testing."
He told a man with a leather cowboy-style hat and wide eyes the same thing he had earlier told students at Memorial High School in Manchester: "Marijuana ought to be decriminalized, period."
New Hampshire audiences can be diverse, from laid-off mill workers to college students to rural recluses, and the up-close politicking requires candidates to answer questions face-to-face.
Picking issues
Whether at a high school or college, farm or living room, Kucinich, 57, worked the audience Oprah-style, using no prepared text, and often holding a microphone in one hand while the other alternated between his pants pocket and gestures to make a point. His suit coat was always buttoned, his hair, combed to the side, always in place.
He emphasized two issues above all: A need to leave Iraq immediately and the need for health care for all. Not health insurance for all - he says other candidates' plans would have premiums, co-payments and deductibles - but government-paid health care.
"I'm not running for insurance salesman-in-chief," he tells audiences everywhere. "I'm running for president of the United States."
Kucinich's answers can sound simplistic, even naive, as if he is choosing to ignore the compromises, hostilities and failed preceding efforts of others in public and foreign policy. On Israel, for instance, he told the 30 people at the Eckleins' house party that he would "bring together the leaders of the Israelis and the Palestinians," demand an end to Palestinian terrorism as well as new Israeli settlements, create economic activity like road building and insist on a sharing of water rights.
On saving energy, he proposed incentives for wind and solar power and even new technologies for light bulbs.
But Kucinich's candidacy is appealing to idealists who believe that if a leader changes priorities - if he thinks positively - new solutions will follow. "All of the positions he has, we hold dear in our hearts," said Marcosa Santiago, a child psychiatrist who held the house party with her husband, David Ecklein.
Waiting his turn
Though Kucinich insists he's running to win, Washington observers believe his goal is to secure a national following among progressives and gain a bigger seat at the table. Otherwise, events like his appearance Wednesday at the Plumbers and Steamfitters Union Hall in Hooksett would be demoralizing.
While he waited off to the side to be introduced, somebody said into the microphone, "I understand Gov. Dean is in the hall." A minute or two later, a phalanx of TV cameras swept through the hall, surrounding the doctor and former governor of Vermont - the Democratic front-runner - as he made his way forward.
"That's OK," Kucinich said of the delay, listening to Dean's short speech from a doorway. "He may have been scheduled before us."
The union hall had not been on Dean's daily list of campaign events. Dean wrapped up, and most of the camera crews left. Kucinich finally was introduced.
Quickly, he had the audience in his hands with his talk of workers' rights and his plan to end the North American Free Trade Agreement.
"I have stood in parking lots . . . where they used to make steel," he said. "Where they used to make bicycles. . . . Where they used to make, where they used to make, where they used to make."
The applause was sharp - and if clapping is a barometer, Kuci nich got the better of Dean.
But did he win labor votes for the state's primary Jan. 27?
"He was great," said Pat Long, an iron workers union member from Hooksett. But Long, like many in the hall, was already wearing a button of support - for Dick Gephardt.
posted on December 14, 2003 11:03:19 AM newI surely would like to know how Lieberman rose to the top of this poll.
It's called anger....just like those who support Dean...cause they're angry.
So are other dems at Al Gore for the way he handled his announcement of support for Dean's campaign. And how he treated Lieberman....not even a call. Those dems are mad too, and they're letting their voice be heard.
posted on December 14, 2003 11:15:37 AM new
So...it's in retaliation to Gore's support?
LOL
Kucinich
His is a campaign preaching world peace, health care without insurance and education for all.
He emphasized two issues above all: A need to leave Iraq immediately and the need for health care for all. Not health insurance for all - he says other candidates' plans would have premiums, co-payments and deductibles - but government-paid health care.
What do you all think about the Kucinich health plan?...Cheryl, Linda???
posted on December 14, 2003 11:27:10 AM new
helen - I'm beginning to think you're bi-polar...just this morning you said:
"She is a pain in the ass and the reason that I and many others are spending less time here.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Dec 14, 2003 06:23 AM
[when you referred to me ]
----
And now you ask: "What do you all think about the Kucinich health plan?...Cheryl, Linda???
Either that or you're trying to instigate an agrument between Cheryl and myself. She already knows where I stand on her favorite candidate.
posted on December 14, 2003 11:28:42 AM new
In light of what we have now, I think it's a good one. I'm sure there are things that need to be ironed out and some concessions to be made. The other candidates are involving insurance companies. Therein lies the problem. It seems the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies have free reign right now. I'm sure if we rid ourselves of the pork barrel spending, a lot of money can be made available. I recently read an interesting (and infuriating) article about the pork barrel spending. If I can find it, I'll post it. Outrageous. Right now, Bush's Medicare prescription plan is a joke. I know many seniors who tossed their AARP card away because they feel they were mislead. We don't need coverage like that. It needs to be a plan that does not involve insurance companies. I'm sure one can be developed that limits coverage (like Medicare and Medicaid does now) to make everyone happy.
I most certainly would be willing to pay a small premium. Right now I cannot afford what I would be charged. It would take a good deal of my paycheck. Last year I had the flu that escalated into pneumonia. With no insurance, I didn't seek medical attention. By the time all was said and done, I cracked two ribs and was forced into the emergency room. To this day I still have problems. Had I had medical coverage, the flu wouldn't have gone that far and I wouldn't have a huge emergency room bill to manage. They prescribed high dosages of anti-biotics that I never filled because I couldn't afford to. Thankfully with the help of some homeopathic medications, I survived.
Linda, I'm not trying to start an argument between you and Cheryl. I'm just interested in how you interact with other posters and if you would state your position on Kucinich's health care policy. I see that in typical fashion, you ducked the question by focusing on me again.
Are you a wimp, Linda? Cheryl didn't hesitate to answer the question.
Cheryl,
I admire Kucinich for having the courage of his convictions in stating his goal to eliminate insurance from his health plan. It takes a brave soul to buck the insurance industry.
posted on December 14, 2003 11:54:41 AM new
lol helen - a whimp?
Now on top of the possibility that you're bi-polar I think you're suffering from 'short term memory loss' too. As we just discussed my views on socialized medicine yesterday, in the "Canada's 'Brain Drain'?" thread. Remember that????
I understand your position on Socialized medicine. However, we are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. Soon, we will be worse off than Iraq in that area if we already aren't.
I remember working in the 1980's and even into the 1990's and healthcare wasn't really an issue. Most work places provided it as a benefit. Then, suddenly you were paying into the plan more and more each year. There are not many jobs around here offering any healthcare coverage for their employees although it would behoove them to do so. It's simply unaffordable thanks to the insurance industry and frivilous lawsuits.
No one said you have to participate. My friend in London lives with the Socialized medicine healthcare system and doesn't seem to have a problem with it at all. In fact, he cannot understand how we survive here without healthcare coverage. Medicaid and Medicare work just fine. I deal with both everyday in my job. At least, there would be some incentive to keep the cost of health care and prescriptions drugs within reason.
posted on December 14, 2003 12:14:44 PM new
Cheryl - we are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare.
But why following in the foot steps of programs that aren't working well?
We can look to the countries that have had socialized health care..[under different names] and see that they are failing. We can see that they're costs are rising. We can see a lot of unhappy citizens who are paying extremely high taxes to support their NH programs. We can see the governments are making health care decisions rather than the doctors, etc. etc. etc.
Just look to Canada's health care system. The cost of it and they only have 31 million citizens. We have over 280 million. Do you want to pay 50% of the money you currently make in taxes to support this? I don't.
I too, respect your devotion to your candidate, but he's just not going to get the party's nomination so he won't be able to pull funds to partially pay for this program from the Pentagon's budget. That's just not going to happen.
posted on December 14, 2003 12:22:27 PM new
Yes, because in this country we'd rather have a fat Pentagon than healthy people. We'd rather have enough money to force other countries into our way of thinking than healthy people. We'd rather be able to make bombs than save lives. We'd rather pay a four star general a hefty salary than perform a life saving operation on an infant. And guess what? It's all being done in the name of world peace. Isn't that a hoot.
posted on December 14, 2003 12:45:48 PM new
Agreed, Cheryl, the two parties and even the democratic candidates, themselves, have different priorities on a lot of the important issues.
posted on December 15, 2003 08:23:28 AM new
The World Health Organization has calculated the number of years that a person can be expected to live in full health - known as the DALE (Disability-Adjusted Life Years) system.
Japan - 74.5 years
Australia - 73.2
France - 73.1
Sweden - 73.0
Italy - 72.7
Spain - 72.8
Greece - 72.5
Switzerland - 72.5
Monaco - 72.4
Andorra - 72.3
posted on December 15, 2003 08:46:26 AM new
What is the life expectancy of the uninsured? I'm sure it's lower. How about those living below poverty level? I don't take much stock in any of these numbers.
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