posted on December 25, 2003 03:26:05 PM new
Before cutting out all meats, note that, sudden and severe dietary changes can be harmful.
Can have negative results; both physically and mentally.
posted on December 25, 2003 04:19:34 PM new
Prof, I can understand your point & agree. My point is one can become paranoid about all the things that can kill a human.
Living is a risk, just one breath at a time.
"Another plague upon the land, as devastating as the locusts God loosed on the Egyptians, is "Political Correctness.'" --Charlton Heston
posted on December 26, 2003 05:54:19 AM new My point is one can become paranoid about all the things that can kill a human
True, everybody goes someway...
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on December 26, 2003 09:05:31 AM new
Bear says...
"No only dead ones"..........
That were too sick to walk when they were killed?
Does anyone want a rare steak?...
Ed. to add that I don't see anything funny about that.
Oh come on Helen, I, and most everyone is concerned about this mad cow disease, but it was funny the way Bear put it! geez
And I'm doubly concerned knowing this cow came from WA state. (though they say the meat went to an Oregon processing plant, but still not a good thing at all!)
Profe, I wholeheartedly agree with raising ones own meat. If you have the means to. We did it. And it was probably the best thing we did on the farm we had. It got my oldest daughter interested in livestock, they learned farm chores, they did the 4 H thing, and today, she works in the Veternary area, and we believe that came from living on a farm.
(besides raising a few steer, we raised hogs also... and chickens, turkeys, rabbits, and horses, for RIDING of course )
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Ever since he identified the bizarre brain-destroying proteins that cause mad cow disease, Dr. Stanley Prusiner, a neurologist at the University of California at San Francisco, has worried about whether the meat supply in America is safe.
He spoke over the years of the need to increase testing and safety measures. Then in May, a case of mad cow disease appeared in Canada, and he quickly sought a meeting with Ann M. Veneman, the secretary of agriculture. He was rebuffed, he said in an interview yesterday, until he ran into Karl Rove, senior adviser to President Bush.
So six weeks ago, Dr. Prusiner, who won the 1997 Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on prions, entered Ms. Veneman's office with a message. "I went to tell her that what happened in Canada was going to happen in the United States," Dr. Prusiner said. "I told her it was just a matter of time."
The department had been willfully blind to the threat, he said. The only reason mad cow disease had not been found here, he said, is that the department's animal inspection agency was testing too few animals. Once more cows are tested, he added, "we'll be able to understand the magnitude of our problem."
This nation should immediately start testing every cow that shows signs of illness and eventually every single cow upon slaughter, he said he told Ms. Veneman. Japan has such a program and is finding the disease in young asymptomatic animals.
Fast, accurate and inexpensive tests are available, Dr. Prusiner said, including one that he has patented through his university.
Ms. Veneman's response (he said she did not share his sense of urgency) left him frustrated. That frustration soared this week after a cow in Washington State was tentatively found to have the disease. If the nation had increased testing and inspections, meat from that cow might never have entered the food chain, he said.
Ms. Veneman was not available for interviews yesterday, and the White House referred all questions to the department. A spokeswoman for Ms. Veneman, Julie Quick, said: "We have met with many experts in this area, including Dr. Prusiner. We welcome as much scientific input and insight as we can get on this very important issue. We want to make sure that our actions are based on the best available science."
In Dr. Prusiner's view, Ms. Veneman is getting poor scientific advice. "U.S.D.A. scientists and veterinarians, who grew up learning about viruses, have difficulty comprehending the novel concepts of prion biology," he said. "They treat the disease as if it were an infection that you can contain by quarantining animals on farms. It's as though my work of the last 20 years did not exist."
Scientists have long been fascinated by a group of diseases, called spongiform encephalopathies, that eat away at the brain, causing madness and death. The leading theory was that they were caused by a slow-acting virus. But in 1988, Dr. Prusiner proposed a theory that seemed heretical at the time: the infectious agent was simply a type of protein, which he called prions.
Prions (pronounced PREE-ons), he and others went on to establish, are proteins that as a matter of course can misfold — that is, fold themselves into alternative shapes that have lethal properties — and cause a runaway reaction in nervous tissue. As more misfolded proteins accumulate, they kill nerve cells.
Animals that eat infected tissues can contract the disease, setting off an epidemic as animals eat each other via rendered meats. But misfolded proteins can also arise spontaneously in cattle and other animals, Dr. Prusiner said. It is not known whether meat from animals with that form of the disease could pass the disease to humans, he said, but it is a risk that greatly worries him.
Cattle with sporadic disease are probably entering the food chain in the United States in small numbers, Dr. Prusiner and other experts say.
Brain tissue from the newly discovered dairy cow in Washington is now being tested in Britain to see if it matches prion strains that caused the mad cow epidemic there, or if it is a homegrown American sporadic strain, Dr. Prusiner said.
"The problem is we just don't know the size of the problem," he said. "We don't know the prevalence or incidence of the disease."
~
"We want to keep prions out of the mouths of humans," Dr. Prusiner said. "We don't know what they might be doing to us."
His laboratory is working on promising treatments for the human form of mad cow disease but preventing its spread is just as important, he said. "Science is capable of finding out how serious the problem is," he said, "but only government can mandate the solutions."
posted on December 26, 2003 12:26:42 PM new
Thanks for that article, Helen. The sad part is when governments do all this spinning to try and convince people meat is fine. Are they protecting us or the meat industry? If the disease is showing up in calves, without symptoms, like the article mentioned... "Japan has such a program and is finding the disease in young asymptomatic animals",
how do they know FOR SURE that the disease hasn't been already passed on?
If testing has been available... "Fast, accurate and inexpensive tests are available, Dr. Prusiner said, including one that he has patented through his university"... why haven't they been using them on all animals?
I'm curious about blood meal - some people use this in their gardens. Could tainted blood meal infect our vegetables?
posted on December 26, 2003 01:12:28 PM new
Blood meal for gardens does or used to carry a warning not to inhale the powder. (Havn't purchased it in years) If the blood is infected it can carry over to humans by inhaling.
posted on December 26, 2003 01:41:29 PM new
I don't use it, Near, but I know a few that do (blood meal). I guess that would go for bone meal as well. Because the disease isn't a virus or bacterial, it made me wonder.
That makes sense, silver. I wonder if small rodents could consume some of the stuff and become infected?
New York Times Article from February 8, 2001 linking vaccine ingredients with possible mad cow disease.
For the last eight years, the Food and Drug Administration has repeatedly asked pharmaceutical companies not to use materials from cattle raised in countries where there is a risk of mad cow disease.
But regulators discovered last year that five companies, including some of the world's largest drug concerns, were still using ingredients from those countries to make nine widely used vaccines.
posted on December 27, 2003 09:45:59 AM new
Dec. 27, 2003, 11:20AM
U.S. traces diseased cow to Canada
By EMILY GERSEMA
Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- he Holstein infected with mad cow disease in Washington state was imported into the United States from Canada about two years ago, federal investigators tentatively concluded today.
Dr. Ron DeHaven, chief veterinarian for the Agriculture Department, said Canadian officials have provided records that indicate the animal was one of a herd of 74 cattle that were shipped from Alberta, Canada, into this country in August 2001 at Eastport, Idaho. It joined the Washington state herd in October 2001.
"These animals were all dairy cattle and entered the U.S. only about two or two-and-a-half years ago, so most of them are still likely alive," DeHaven said.
DeHaven emphasized that just because the sick cow was a member of that herd, it does not mean that all 74 animals are infected.
Canada, which found a case mad cow disease in Alberta in May.
Just days after the discovery of the nation's first case of mad cow disease, the United States has lost nearly all of its beef exports as more than a dozen countries stopped buying American beef as insurance against potential infection.
Based on the Canadian records, the diseased cow was 6 1/2-years-old -- older than U.S. officials had thought, DeHaven said. U.S. papers on the cow said she was 4- or 4 1/2-years-old.
The age is significant because the United States and Canada have banned feed that could be the source of infection since 1997.
Farmers used to feed their animals meal containing tissue from other cattle and livestock to fatten them. Health officials in both countries banned such feed because infected tissue -- such as the brain and spinal cord -- could be in the meal.
The Agriculture Department also has recalled an estimated 10,000 pounds of meat cut from the infected cow and from 19 other cows all slaughtered Dec. 9 at Vern's Moses Lake Meat Co., in Moses Lake, Wash.
Ken Peterson, of the department's Food Safety and Inspection Service, said officials still are trying to track down the meat.
He and other department officials have stressed that the U.S. meat is still considered safe because the animal's brain and spinal cord were removed before the meat was processed.
Officials say the slaughtered cow was deboned at Midway Meats in Centralia, Ore., and the meat -- though no contaminated spinal or brain tissue -- was sent to two other plants in the region, identified as Willamette and Interstate Meat, both near Portland, Ore.
Mad cow disease, formally known as bovine spongiform encephalopathy, is a public health concern because it is related to a human disease, variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob. In Britain, 143 people died of the human illness after an outbreak of mad cow in the 1980s. People can get it if they eat meat containing tissue from the brain and spine of an infected cow.
The animal most likely became sick from eating contaminated feed, so investigators with the Food and Drug Administration, which regulates animal feed, are tracking down what it ate. That is a difficult task because the cow may have gotten the disease years ago, long before it showed signs that it was sick.
Dr. Stephen Sundlof, head of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine, said the agency also is trying to account for all of the products made from the cow. This includes items like soap and soil.
FDA is "trying to trace down any byproducts from processing of the cow to keep it from getting into other products that FDA regulates, including feeds," Sundlof said.
Gregg Doud, an economist for the Denver-based National Cattlemen's Beef Association, said Friday that the United States stands to lose at least $6 billion a year in exports and falling domestic prices because of the sick cow.
"We've lost roughly 90 percent of our export market just in the last three days," Doud said.
Keith Collins, the Agriculture Department's chief economist, said the market probably will not see the full economic impact of the mad cow case until trading intensifies after the holidays. He has said that 10 percent of U.S. beef is exported.
Japan, South Korea and Mexico are among the top buyers that banned American beef imports this week after the U.S. government announced it had found a cow in Washington state sick with the brain-wasting illness.
An international lab in England confirmed that diagnosis Thursday. By Saturday, when tiny Kuwait joined the import ban, the list of countries had topped two dozen.
A U.S. delegation is leaving Saturday for Japan, which takes about one-third of all U.S. beef exports, and possibly other Asian countries that imposed bans on American meat and livestock this week. The Treasury Department said it is monitoring developments.
Federal officials on Friday quarantined a herd of 400 bull calves, one of which is an offspring of the sick cow. During its life, the infected cow bore three calves.
One calf is still at the same dairy near Mabton, Wash., that was the final home of the diseased Holstein cow. That herd was quarantined earlier. Another calf is at a bull calf feeding operation in Sunnyside, Wash., and a third died shortly after being born in 2001, said DeHaven.
"There is the potential that the infected cow could pass the disease onto its calves," he said. No decision has been made on destroying the herds, he said.
Investigators are focused on finding the birth herd of the cow, since it likely was infected several years ago from eating contaminated feed, DeHaven said. Scientists say the incubation period for the disease in cattle is four or five years.
posted on December 27, 2003 10:52:34 AM new
I can't believe Canada would export Alberta beef after our own mad cow source came from there. Canada doesn't do extensive testing either. What a complete sham! I wonder what spin Canada will put on this. Personally, I hope it destroys the Alberta beef market, and ALL beef markets for that matter, until they decide to test every single cow.
posted on December 27, 2003 11:02:51 AM new
I have been reading up on this since it became such a news item - and the very scary thing is they don't really understand what a prion does to infect or the role of a normal prion in the organism.
There is no agreement that there is no normal genetic material associated with the prion even though none can be found. That is a huge point of contention because there should not be enough material in the protein to record the information needed for reproduction and for the variations found in the infections.
If they don't understand the basic mechanisms of the infection then all the advice they are giving is basically a huge guess. They are about at the stage doctors were with bacterial infections - pre-Pastuer. They observe the disease but only can make general observations from what they see occur.
So -- I would not bet the farm - or your butt - on that level of advice.
posted on December 27, 2003 11:27:23 AM new
I have 5 pregnant heifers right now...don't think I'll be selling the calves this spring....just might start building up a little organic beef herd
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on December 27, 2003 11:48:37 AM new
kraft, I don't remember when Canada found their first 'mad cow', so this could have been before? As the article states-2- 2 1/2 years ago, these were brought down from Canada.
Profe, as in organic, exactly what does it mean. We were doing this in late 70's thru the 80's. We fed them grain mainly in winter, and before slaughter, and of course alfafa (help! sp? LOL) bought from local. Grain was purchased from local growers also. So I guess? we were organic? I do know that our vegetables were totally organic, as we used composte only, and they did very well.
Oh, and slaughtering, they were not 'electric shocked'. I won't say how we did that, as some may think its not right, but that is the way the 'head' farmer (jerk, sorry LOL) in the family had always done it.
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posted on December 27, 2003 12:29:43 PM new
Near, one of Helen's links that said it was discovered in '97, I believe first in Britain, so you can see why so little is known. Makes you wonder how long before '97 the disease was around and undetected.
I agree with you Gravid, but I also feel a bit sorry for the 'professionals' that are trying to explain this disease to the public without total panic. This might end up being nothing, but it's a definate wake-up call to the commercial meat industry and meat consumers.
posted on December 27, 2003 12:57:45 PM newIf they don't understand the basic mechanisms of the infection then all the advice they are giving is basically a huge guess. I agree. Just like it also was when the first cases of HIV/AIDS started showing up. They really didn't know much, but sure were busy reassuring the public about how it was transmitted. Then as time passed we found out differently.
----
My grandfather raised cows that were fed alfalfa and corn he had grown. I don't remember them being given anything else. 'Course this was back a 100 years or so ago.
posted on December 27, 2003 01:03:42 PM new
The height of the outbreak in England/Europe, was mid to late 80's; shortly thereafter they knew the cause of BSE. Cannibalism. Feeding cattle to cattle. This practice was not halted 'til 1997. Incubation is 4-5 yrs in cows; they are usually butchered at 36 months before symptoms show up.
In the early 80's ?, could have been a little earlier, many children were given growth hormones worldwide, derived from cows. A rash of Jacob kreutzfeld disease; it was tied to BSE from the hormones.
BSE is not a new disease. It's just cheaper to recycle the offal and feed it back to animals.
It's not related to Alzheimer. I don't think anyone really knows what it is...
The bottom line is Money!
posted on December 27, 2003 01:39:09 PM new
LOL Kiara
silver, what I've been reading about this, is they are not even sure the incubation period IS 4-5 years. I don't think they know a whole about this whole thing. Yes, they can examine the dead cow, and say it has this or that. I was watching a whole program on it, and they were saying the incubation period in HUMANS could be decades. So I think you'll find a whole lot of 'experts' saying different things.
edited for ubbbbbbb
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[ edited by NearTheSea on Dec 27, 2003 01:39 PM ]
posted on December 27, 2003 01:50:27 PM new
Glad it was good Granddaughters.... well, hopefully it will be awhile for me, but the way one is going (marriage!!!!) who knows!!!!
Wow, that list about covers all of Europe and the eastern block!
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posted on December 27, 2003 02:12:17 PM new
I kind of agree with bear on the individual threat of all this.
It's going to hurt our beef industry, for sure. But after reading a few articles on the MCD, so few have actually contracted the disease compared to the number of people who eat meat once or twice a day. I don't plan to eat less meat than I do now, but will eliminate the list of meat items they recommend we stay way from for the time being.
Here's one on why eating too much fish can be unhealthy...a lot depends on if they're wild or farm bred...etc... As this article says..."sometimes it just makes you want to go order a good hamburger with fries" http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/fish_toxic.cfm
edited to put in correct URL - sorry
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 27, 2003 02:16 PM ]
posted on December 27, 2003 02:25:26 PM new
Here's another article about MCD. Both blood donor and recipient died of mad cow disease.
[CNN]
Wednesday, December 17, 2003 Posted: 1:36 PM EST (1836 GMT)
LONDON, England (AP) -- The British government reported on Wednesday a patient died of the human form of mad cow disease after a blood transfusion from an infected donor -- the first time such a connection has been reported.
The BSE epidemic in the United Kingdom reached its peak incidence in January 1993 at almost 1,000 new cases per week. The outbreak may have resulted from the feeding of scrapie-containing sheep meat-and-bone meal to cattle. There is strong evidence and general agreement that the outbreak was amplified by feeding rendered bovine meat-and-bone meal to young calves.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) monitors the trends and current incidence of CJD in the United States by analyzing death certificate information from U.S. multiple cause-of-death data, compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, CDC. By 4-year periods from 1987 through 1998, the average annual death rates of CJD (not vCJD) have remained relatively constant, ranging from 0.98 cases per 1 million in 1987-1990 to 1.03 cases per 1 million in 1995-1998. In addition, CJD deaths in persons aged <30 years in the United States remain extremely rare (<5 cases per 1 billion per year). In contrast, in the United Kingdom, over half of the patients who died with vCJD were in this young age group.
Sliver is absolutely right. The bottom line is money. The reluctance to abandon using downer cows (cows so sick that they can't stand up anymore) and the failure to test all cattle before meat is distributed is all justified by cost to the beef industry. Scientists know that animals with the disease can be asymptomatic yet there is no program under consideration to test all animals...too costly? There is no effort to enforce the ban on infected feed...too costly? It's time to consider what a horrible cost it will be NOT to correct these problems.
)
