posted on December 28, 2003 10:45:56 PM newIt's not like it doesn't happen, profe
Of course it does, linda....never the less, hateful, blanket generalizations like:
Every restaurant in Santa Fe is now staffed with illegals and it makes me sick to see it...
and oversimplifications about an entire country's work ethic (no,no, don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to say Mexicans are lazy!!) based on one short experience working for one company in Mexico, makes me just a bit ticked off. My oldest daughter once had some bubba in a restaurant (she was a customer too) suggest that she go back to Mexico. In her own respectful, ladylike way, she suggested that he might put his head back up his a$$ where it belonged. Bigotry is ugly, and it is everywhere.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on December 28, 2003 11:10:34 PM new
Yes, fenix they did. But we all know how easy it is to purchase forged documents.
I went down on their opening day with a bottle of Mumms and two champagne glasses as a 'good luck' present and ended up working there for 6 months. They couldn't keep help. Most were salad servers, sandwich makers, grill chef, restocking clerks, busboys/girls and dishwashers. Their customers were almost all professionals who frequented their place and like I said when their other friend came in....they were gone. The change of personnel became a joke between the customers and my neighbors.
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When you have some time...read this article. It's things like this, that Fox is pushing, that I'm totally against. Ignore the 'slant' of the writer...just focus on the statements Fox has made and have been passed in their congress. I hope no American president ever goes for that. I don't believe they ever will.
http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/mexico_plan.htm
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And we can't take care of all the poor in the world by allowing open access to our nation, especially as clinton pointed out 'when we're going through rough economic times ourselves'. I do support more agents on our boarders to prevent this immigration, rather than spending funds after they're already here to return them. And if you click on that link I provided you'll see the CA State Treasure's comment on illegals and how expensive they are to the state of CA alone.
nite
edited because I forgot the link, again........
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 28, 2003 11:13 PM ]
posted on December 28, 2003 11:32:57 PM new
::And we can't take care of all the poor in the world by allowing open access to our nation::
Just to clarify something here... I have never said it was. I have stated numerous times that the best way to stem the wave to illegal immigration is to eliminate the need. Most people don't want to leave their families behind to live in a country that speaks a language that has no logic for them and where they are constantly seen a blight as society. They do this to provide for themselves and more often that not, their family back home. People should not have to go to a foreign country in order to keep a roof over their families heads back home.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 29, 2003 07:44:55 AM new
Of course, in the best of all possible worlds, no one would need to immigrate to another country in order to afford basic life sustaining needs. Unfortunately, that's not the case today. In the absence of an effective policy to deal with the immigration issue, we need to treat these poor people with the respect that all people in our society should be treated.
Generally, the people who raise so much hell about immigrants are the same people who would like to reduce services to citizens of the U.S. who are poor. Cut taxes for the rich and starve out federal programs for the poor is their greedy agenda.
posted on December 29, 2003 09:50:41 AM newI do wonder though, how yellowstone can tell an illegal immigrant from a US citizen in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
profe51
Are you saying that they all looks alike to you?? Your statement sounds like a hateful, blanket generalization to me so what's the difference.
Clean up your own house before you expect others to clean up theirs.
Every restaurant in Santa Fe is now staffed with illegals and it makes me sick to see it...
You misunderstood this statement, notice that I did not say that it makes me sick to see them, I said to see it. I don't hate these people, I hate what they are doing to our country and our economy.
Pay attention profe51, I allready stated that this was an econimic issue and not a racial issue.
posted on December 29, 2003 10:07:02 AM new
I got to tell you Twelvepole that I find some of your statements to be offensive. Bullets in the head, send the dead bodies back Mexico, scout sniper school
People, please don't group me in with the Twelvepole. His and my way of thinking are quite different.
posted on December 29, 2003 10:09:24 AM new
We hav learned to ignore Twelve when it comes to this issue - he's just baiting.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 29, 2003 10:45:14 AM new
I'm always amused that "bigotry" and "racism" are always introduced when illegal aliens are discussed. Anyone against it becomes ipso facto a racist. Why is that? And why is the "illegal" part of the equation downplayed or ignored? What part of "illegal" do some not understand?
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on December 29, 2003 11:26:13 AM new
It can be said that dismissing the whole problem by saying illegal is illegal and no further thought is neccessary is rather shallow also.
These laws were not brought down from the mountain on stone engraved by the finger of God.
In fact they often act against the best interests of everyone concerned.
The same people who are so fixated on seeing these laws enforced likely never take a trip to the store without breaking a few traffic laws such is their deep respect for all law.
But by taking that tack they can put off the responsibility of actually thinking and having a position on an issue when such a self exaimination might expose the fact they really want to use the law to punish and avoid the people they distain.
If you can't stand the illegals at 'BurgerX' stop going to the restaurant. If you don't spend your money there they can't send it home and they will not remain employed. As long as you give them your money you are enabling them.
And make damn sure your lawn service and pool maintenance and so forth all employ citizens at living wages.
Otherwise it is shear hypocricy.
posted on December 29, 2003 12:11:02 PM newIt can be said that dismissing the whole problem by saying illegal is illegal and no further thought is neccessary is rather shallow also.
It could be said, yes--but still doesn't change the fact that there is a vast difference between legal & illegal immigration.
The same people who are so fixated on seeing these laws enforced likely never take a trip to the store without breaking a few traffic laws such is their deep respect for all law.
If I did break a traffic law, I would take the resulting ticket without whining about discrimination. But then I rarely do--the last time being when I got in a carpool lane & didn't realize until I was on it that this was a 3-person lane & not a 2-person one, & I got off as soon as I could...
But by taking that tack they can put off the responsibility of actually thinking and having a position on an issue when such a self exaimination might expose the fact they really want to use the law to punish and avoid the people they distain.
Sorry, no. I live & work quite happily with immigrants from many countries who are here legally. Oooh--there's that word again..."legal."
And make damn sure your lawn service and pool maintenance and so forth all employ citizens at living wages. Otherwise it is shear hypocricy.
I usually do my lawn myself or hire a teenager in the neighborhood to do it. I did try a gardener for a while...hispanic, by the way...who charged me $55 a month. He came once a week & it took him about 30 minutes. $55 divided by 4 is $13.75. $13.75 for 30 minutes work is pretty good, if you ask me--comes to $27.50 per hour, which is more than I make. I'm sure he charged more for other people with bigger lawns. I don't think he got cheated on the deal, do you?
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on December 29, 2003 12:52:55 PM new
Twelve - just out of curiosity - how do you justify spending 100,000 billion dollars plus in Iraq to mend a nation that posed no direct danger to the US or it's economy but reject out of hand the concept of investing funds in a nation whose financial difficulties result in a problem which you do see as a direct threat to our nations economy. Wouldn't a short term investment in aiding Mexico in repairing it's economy be well worth the long term benefits of decreased immigration issues including healthcare, law enforcement/immigration department, education etc.
Are you going to stand on your plank and stomp your feet and insist that the boat should not have sprung the leak or are you going to accept that it has and fix the hole before you sink?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 29, 2003 12:58:55 PM new
I agree we should invade Mexico and make them a state, then the billions spent would be for the betterment of the United States...
Or force Fox and company to do what they were elected to do...
posted on December 29, 2003 01:04:11 PM new
I guess expecting anything other than a childish glib answer on your part was much too much to ask.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 29, 2003 01:30:43 PM new
It is neither childish nor glib, but we all know where your allegience lies in these cases and it is not with the US
By allowing these people here illegally, is STEALING from US CITIZENS or LEGAL residents
posted on December 29, 2003 01:33:19 PM new
"The front-page story by Mike Allen describes a Bush initiative on "immigration reform." Seems that U.S. employers would post jobs and the wages that go with them on a Department of Labor website. If no Americans came forward to take the jobs, the employer would be allowed to bring Mexican temporary workers in legally, give them the jobs, and put them on a fast track to permanent residency and citizenship.
What would this mean? U.S. companies would offer pay at or near the minimum wage for jobs they had open in, say, construction.
As few Americans can support a family and kids in school on $5 an hour, many of these jobs would go begging. The employer would then be allowed to go to Mexico, where the minimum wage is about 60 cents an hour, or countries where it is even less, and hire all the hard-working labor he needed at the U.S. minimum wage.
As there are billions of people on earth who do not earn anything near $5 an hour, what the Bush plan means is throwing open America's borders to millions of workers who will come in and suppress the wages of America's workers."
We are courting an economic disaster unless we begin to place structural barriers to stop the decline in wages and the huge rise in production capacity.
We may yet see a full blown depression before Bush's first term is up.
posted on December 29, 2003 01:38:55 PM new
profe51
Are you saying that they all looks alike to you?? Your statement sounds like a hateful, blanket generalization to me so what's the difference.
Nope. I happen to be very aware that there are black, yellow, white and brown illegals in this country. I also am aware that latinos make up a huge percentage of the population in the southwest, and quite a few of us are NOT immigrants, but given the current social climate, are frequently mistaken as such. Often, those mistakes involve some kind of hateful statements, like the one my girl suffered recently.I'd just like to know how you make the generalization that the restaurants in Santa Fe are all staffed with illegals? How do you know that, from your good friend Armando?
Every restaurant in Santa Fe is now staffed with illegals and it makes me sick to see it...
You misunderstood this statement, notice that I did not say that it makes me sick to see them, I said to see it. I don't hate these people, I hate what they are doing to our country and our economy.
As I said before, your generalization makes no sense, and unless you have some hard facts to prove it, in my opinion, it has no merit.
Pay attention profe51, I allready stated that this was an econimic issue and not a racial issue.
So you did....
Profe51
Please explain to me what a bubba is.Sounds like a hateful, blanket generalization to me.
A "bubba", to me, is anyone ignorant enough to make an assumption about someone on the basis of their appearance, and then compound their stupidity by opening their mouth about that assumption. If that's a generalization too you, tough.
Edited to add;
Bigotry is ugly, and it is everywhere.
I agree but I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself before you start pointing your finger at anyone else.
I have, and you're right, after much soul searching, I have discovered that I am indeed prejudiced. I am offended by people who make assumptions about an entire population's "work ethic", on the basis of a brief stint with a FOREIGN company trying to set up shop in Mexico. I am offended by people who assume that the entire city's fast food industry has been taken over by illegals on the basis of apparently one bad experience in a Sonic. Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa, I'll work on it.
Twelve: you big kidder, Mr. Shoot 'emup, that's you, you tough guy
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
[ edited by profe51 on Dec 29, 2003 01:40 PM ]
posted on December 29, 2003 01:44:55 PM new
I don't think the government is going to allow companies to list jobs at below minimum wage Reamond
Seperate observation...
I find it interesting that the US government admits that there are jobs that Ameicans are unwiling to accept (thus the H-2b visa) but so many people on this board don't.
Waving bye-bye to Twelve stomping and bellowing even as his boat hits bottom
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 29, 2003 01:45 PM ]
posted on December 29, 2003 01:51:03 PM new
$5 is the minimum wage in many locations - Fed is $5.15. There is a two tier system for the MW and many exemptions.
Exemptions from both the minimum wage and overtime pay:
Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and employees in certain computer-related occupations.
Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational establishments, employees of certain small newspapers, seamen employed on foreign vessels, employees engaged in fishing operations, and employees engaged in newspaper delivery.
Farmworkers employed by anyone who used no more than five hundred man-days of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year.
Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the elderly or infirm.
As a general matter, the federal law covers all employees of establishments that have at least $500,000 in gross receipts per year. Further, any employee of an establishment that does not meet the $500,000 minimum is covered if that employee's individual work involves transactions that in some way touch interstate commerce.
posted on December 29, 2003 02:15:58 PM new
The federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. However, a special minimum wage of $4.25 per hour applies to young workers under the age of 20 during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer.
posted on December 29, 2003 02:35:17 PM new
profe51
I'd just like to know how you make the generalization that the restaurants in Santa Fe are all staffed with illegals? How do you know that, from your good friend Armando?
Even if I retold anything that my friend Armando had said to me you would only make some sort of an inference as to it being truthful again, so what would be the point.
I am offended by people who make assumptions about an entire population's "work ethic", on the basis of a brief stint with a FOREIGN company trying to set up shop in Mexico.
Just so we understand each other, I did not make this statement nor do I agree with it.
As far as other statements that I made to you I was responding to your attack against me being some sort of a racist.
I do not appreciate being called a racist or a lier.
Furthermore, if you don't like my stance on the issue, then tough to you too.
posted on December 29, 2003 03:07:58 PM newjust so we understand each other, I did not make this statement nor do I agree with it.
That's good. I didn't accuse you of making it. I included it as part of my explanation of people for whom I hold a prejudice..
As far as other statements that I made to you I was responding to your attack against me being some sort of a racist....I do not appreciate being called a racist or a lier.
Re-read the thread. The words "racist" and "lier" (sic) are yours, not mine. I haven't called you, or anyone else on this thread either one. Attack indeed....Laughing Out Loud
Furthermore, if you don't like my stance on the issue, then tough to you too.
At least we agree on something
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 6, 2004 03:28:27 PM new
Most of our job problems in this country are the fact every company wants to use the cheapest labor they can get. Most companies are now using mostly Temperary Services for their work force,they give no benefits,no insurance and pay less wages to Everyone than someone who is hired by them. It does bother me that people from Mexico pay no taxes.But the real problem is there little hiring and mostly layoffs everytime the company gets their orders caught up. Nobody can get any unemployment because they make sure you don't. Companies are all for themselves and very few are fit to work at for anybody and it is getting worse all the time.
posted on January 6, 2004 03:57:52 PM new
I dont like generalizations, but the few mexicans I've seen working or hired at so-called jobs americans dont want....work very hard, for very little.
Wonder how many spawns of 'illegal' Irish, Italian, German, Polish, Jewish, etc, etc., are now some of America's most productive, and have made great contributions to this society? Their forefathers may have come and hidden out illegally for awhile. You cant deny that never happened? -- And why does that never bother anyone as much?
posted on January 6, 2004 04:19:40 PM new
::It does bother me that people from Mexico pay no taxes.::
Huh? Anyone working legally in this country pays taxes. Foreign residents do get a large percentage back but that is because as a non citizen, non resident they do not benefit for most of the services that are funded by the taxes anyway. In the mean time, they still pay sales tax, gas taxes etc.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 6, 2004 08:46:33 PM new
Josh Marshall asks a very good question.
Here's a question: how many people actually think the president expects to or even wants this 'policy' to pass?
SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Tomorrow the President will propose a new temporary worker program that will match willing foreign workers with willing U.S. employers when no Americans can be found to fill those jobs. This new program would be open both to new perspective foreign workers who are currently in our country, and the undocumented men and women who are currently employed in the United States -- currently employed in the United States.
He will also lay out several detailed principles for immigration reform and call on Congress to enact legislation that would create this new temporary worker program in accordance with these principles. Those principles are that we must protect the homeland by controlling our borders, meaning that we need to know who is here and what their status is. And so we would also work with other foreign governments to make efforts to control our border, but also enforce violations against both employers and people who are here illegally.
Secondly, it would obviously serve our American economy by matching willing worker with willing employer, as the President has said on many occasions, when no American is available for the job. It will provide a labor supply for American employers in a way that is streamlined, efficient, clear and workable.
The third principle is that this program should promote compassion by understanding the current broken system that we have with as many as 8 million people who are currently undocumented in our country, and provide a way to put them as part of the legitimate part of our economy.
Next, it would provide incentives for return to the home country, such as totalization agreements, as we have with several foreign countries around the world, and would create -- call for the creation of savings accounts that could be used for the benefit of the participant for either retirement or for a nest egg to buy land or capitalize a business, or whatever.
Finally, it will protect the rights of illegal workers who now live in the shadows and are fearful of coming out of the shadows, for fear of deportation. They will now enjoy the same protections that American workers have with respect to wages and employment rights and the like.
So that's it, in a nutshell -- principles, calling for a new temporary worker program. It also will call for, in the name of some of the detail, a reasonable increase in the number of green cards. As I hope many of you know that green card holders can then, after five years, elect to become citizens. And we have limitations as to the number of green cards that are available annually. And it would increase some capacity in that regard. My colleague -- I know you have to go.
posted on January 6, 2004 08:51:42 PM new
excellent!....but I'm still not voting for him...betch everybody who was, still will...
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
