posted on January 3, 2004 03:51:34 PM new
I believe in God, but I'm not too sure about the resurrection of Jesus and some of the Bible interpretations. According to the Bible, I can only know God if I go through Jesus first. Do you believe that?
posted on January 3, 2004 07:22:18 PM new
Oh, this could be fun. I wonder whatever happened to Orleansgallery? She was good with this stuff. I don't believe Jesus was God's son. I think he was a man with strong religious beliefs. I think that because his beliefs were so strong he was able to lead people. I don't buy the immaculate conception stuff, the 3 wise men or the star in the east. It's a nice story. Most of what is in the Bible was written by mortal man. It's more of a history lesson than anything else, IMO. Take the burning bush. A sign from God? Nope. There actually is a bush that burns in the Middle East. Natural phenomenon was not easily explained in ancient times. Tying everything to God was an easy choice. Imagine living through an earthquake or volcano eruption in ancient times. It would have been even more terrifying then because there wasn't the science to explain it. I believe in God. I believe there is a higher being and I believe we move on to a different higher plane when we pass. But, I don't believe Jesus is Lord.
posted on January 3, 2004 09:47:13 PM new
Near and fenix, to say that Muslims don't believe in the bible or that Jesus was the son of god is a bit simplistic. The Blessed Virgin is mentioned thirty or more times in the Koran. In fact, Muslims uphold the Immaculate Conception as reality, and many Muslim scholars have written of the divinity of Jesus. They just don't accept the Christian doctrine that he is the only path to heaven.Don't forget, one of the most revered sites where the Blessed Mother has appeared is Fatima, in Portugal. Fatima is named for a local girl who was born Muslim and named after Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed. Mohammed has been said to have remarked of his daughter "She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary." Many Muslims make pilgrimages to the shrine at Fatima.
Put as simply as I can, I believe the creator seeks man according to man's needs, and according to his perceptions. A person's needs and his perceptions are often culturally based. I don't believe it is possible for men to truly comprehend the essence of the creator, without certain "filters" which give us something to visualize in our little minds. These filters come from our culture, our upbringing, that which through experience we know to be true. If it means the Blessed Virgin for me, the Sun for someone else, or a pantheon of animistic spirits for someone else, I don't think it makes one whit of difference. Dogma is a human invention...I refuse to believe that any force as powerful as that which created the universe has time to nitpick the way humans do about religion.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 3, 2004 10:10:12 PM new
profe, I certainly will never argue with anyone's spritual beliefs
Question: I remember the story of Fatima from Catholic school. That she supposedly has the '3 secrets of Fatima' that are held in the Vatican and known only to the Pope?
I didn't know she was muslim, she then must have converted? Isn't she a nun now, if still living?
totally off topic! NASA just had a probe land on Mars!! how cool is this?
sorry!
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 3, 2004 10:15:19 PM new
You are right - I gave the extreme readers Digest version
Here is a more detailed interpretation of the Islamic view of Jesus.
Muslims respect and revere Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of God's prophets and messengers to humankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as "Jesus", but always adds the phrase "upon him be peace." The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth, and a special surah of the Qur'an is entitled "Mary." The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:
"'Behold (O Mary!)' The Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Anointed (Masih or Messiah), Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.'
"She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what He wills. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, "Be!" and it is.'" (Qur'an 3:42-7)
Jesus was born miraculously through the same power that had brought Adam into being without a father: "Truly the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)
During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Qur'an tells us that he said:
"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, a figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave." (Qur'an 3:49)
Neither Muhammad nor Jesus came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it. In the Qur'an, Jesus is reported as saying that he came: "To attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me." (Qur'an 3:50)
The Prophet Muhammad said:
"Whoever believes that there is none worthy of worship but God, alone without partner, that Muhammad is His messenger, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, His word which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit proceeding from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven." (A Hadith from the collections of al Bukhari)
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 3, 2004 10:32:46 PM new
Near, she did convert. I was distracted and didn't add that part...there is lots of supposed mystery about her, that's for sure. I'm not well versed on her or the shrine of Fatima. Guadalupe is my patroness........
edited to add: thanks for the elaboration fenix!
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
[ edited by profe51 on Jan 3, 2004 10:33 PM ]
posted on January 3, 2004 10:42:19 PM new
My daughter, the cowgirl, who is STILL here after the holidays (sans boyfriend, thanks to god)...informs me that the three secrets of Fatima are as follows:
The first: was a description of Hell
The second: was a predicition of WWII
The third: at the request of the Virgin, was read by the Pope some time in the late 50's or 60's, and sealed and ordered never to be opened....
She didn't get kicked out of parochial school like I did
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 3, 2004 10:55:02 PM new
LOL! Did she bring him home and he ran at the thought of slaughtering the calf (wasn't that the threat?) or did she leave him behind to enjoy home family and moms homemade tortillas without interuption?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 4, 2004 04:53:26 AM new
fenix: She hasn't mentioned him. I thought it best not to bring it up....(whew!)
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 4, 2004 07:10:19 AM newI don't understand much in this thread but..."sans boyfriend, thanks to god" I do!
Keeping on topic, god and all...I'm pretty sure god has yet to create any male specimens that are worthy of my girls
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 4, 2004 10:04:57 AM new
profe, LOL, I used to think the same of my girls, now? one is *thinking* marriage.. ACK!!!! but he is a very nice, responsible guy. whattya do...
Yes, the three secrets, I remember.. I heard, that the third is the 'end of the world as we know it' or TEOTWAWKI the pope was 'suppose' to reveal that one in the 60's, but he didn't. If true, honestly who really wants to know any exact time the world ends? I don't
Hey I WISH I would have gotten kicked out of parachial school LOL!!! My brother did, in the 7th grade, he was soooooo bad LOL, they ended up sending him to military school, not sure which is worse He did turn out ok though
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 4, 2004 11:06:54 AM new
I believe if you don't believe Jesus is the messiah,you will be one who will be left behind. Of course alot of people don't believe he's coming back either.
posted on January 4, 2004 11:38:11 AM new
MAH645- I agree with you to a point. Written somewhere in the NT, a person can 'accept' Christ as their saviour, right at the time of their death, so even if they are not a believer during their life, they are still given a 'chance' right up to the last breath (don't ask me the scripture but I know its there somewhere)
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 4, 2004 12:33:59 PM new
Near, I believe that Jesus was a person, but I'm not convinced he was anymore special than the Dali Lama, Ghandi, you, or anyone else here for that matter.
For there to be an opinion that a person's inevitable death and afterlife conciousness will be based solely upon whether that person believed Jesus was God in human form, goes against common sense... unless you believe that every human is the son (daughter) of God.
The God that lives inside me, tells me this is all silly. "My" God keeps repeating the same thing to me... religion is the false prophet.
posted on January 4, 2004 08:56:00 PM new
You can't really say Jesus was a good man but not the son of God. He was either who He said He was or He was a raving maniac. Twelve men died a martyrs death for their belief in Him. Would this men die for someone who was a fraud.
Someone said the Old Testament doesn't believe in Jesus, or say anything to prove Him. Read Isaiah 53. Jesus fulfilled every thing that was prophesied about Him, do know the odds of anyone trying to do that. How can you be born in a town of your choosing first of all. The Old Testament is full of references of God. Even in Genesis 1 there are mentions of Jesus.
If you believe God created the world why can't you believe in the virgin birth. Jesus had to be born of a virgin. Mary was a virgin but she wasn't born from a virgin (her mother). Jesus had to be born without sin in order to take our sins on Himself. He was the pure Lamb without blemish. The Jews today still sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. Jesus came so we wouldn't have to do that anymore. He paid once and for all.
Before anyone says "can't you think for yourself", let me add I do think for myself. If you really read the bible you will find everything validates itself in His Word. God says to love Him with all you heart AND MIND. That means think about it and prove Him. If you ask Him to prove Himself HE will. When you think about it it is the only thing that does make sense. God became one of us so He could save us. Contrary to what some thing the bible never contradicts itself.
Most people who say they don't believe the bible have never read it and go by what others say about it. Read it for yourself, you will find the most loving Father and His Son who are waiting for you. It is one decision you will NEVER regret. If you will just read John in the New Testament you will see a lot of things that are so simple. Jesus said He came for the lowly and humble. He made it very simple so everyone could understand.
We can do nothing to save ourselves. Jesus did it all on the cross. He took our sins on Himself and took our punishment. If we accept that He will show us the Truth. He only did it so we can spend eternity with Him, but we have to accept it first. If someone holds out a gift for you and you don't accept it then it isn't yours. The same with Him.
posted on January 4, 2004 09:41:01 PM new
I bet Noah had a hell of a time loading dinosaurs on the ark! Maybe he tied a rope around their necks and let them swim behind the ark. I sure wish the bible would expound on that.
posted on January 4, 2004 10:55:10 PM new
Well, maybe thats why the dinosaurs are extinct, because Noah said 'Those HUGE ASS things, no way, I'm drawing the line there!'
paws4God, I agree with you all the way, and I too, believe the Bible does NOT contradict itself, contrary to 'popular belief'.
kraft, no, you don't have to believe in Jesus at all. God gave everyone free will and choice. If that is your choice, that is fine. That is your choice and your free will to decide what you want to believe in.
I don't force my beliefs on anyone, so don't worry about me trying to convince you
Amen
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 5, 2004 12:17:57 AM new
NTS-Pray for those poor reptiles that were lost, due to Noah's failure to secure them a place on the ark. It was probably the right decision, those of the carnivorous variety would have wanted to eat every thing in sight, maybe even Noah and his shipmates!
The Jews today still sacrifice animals to pay for their sins
This is a sunday school myth told to wide-eyed children. Animals were only sacrificed in the temple in Jerusalem. There has been no sacrifice since the temple's destruction.
One of the things that disturbs me most about dogmatic religion is the way it needs to defame the faith of others in order to justify it's own.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 5, 2004 07:32:10 AM new
profe51`````
I did mess up when I said that. I should have said "they would if they had a temple". The temple will be rebuilt though. Which by the way I am in no way, shape, or form anti-Semitic. Christians are to support the Jews and most do. That is one of the main reasons America has been so blessed, we have stood with the Jews. When we pull our support from them we can kiss our butts good-bye. I was not trying to defame the Jewish religion.
My point was that Jesus took the place of the lambs that were sacrificed. He is the once and for all sacrifice. As I said read Isaiah 53 in the Old Testament. The Old Testament describes two different coming of the Messiah. One as a king, one as a living sacrifice. The first time He came as a sacrifice, when He returns He will come as King.
posted on January 5, 2004 09:21:37 AM new
kcpick4u-See? Noah had the insight to forget them dinosaurs for their own lives! LOLOL!!
paws4God, I hear about 'Jews for Jesus' and I never understood that one, do you know much about them? Its just a little confusing to me, for a Jewish person, who has been taught all his life, that they are still waiting for a Messiah, to turn around and accept Jesus as the Messiah, when they've been taught that Jesus was NOT. Do you know more about them?
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 5, 2004 11:07:42 AM new
Nearthesea````
I don't know a whole lot about who some refer to as "completed Jews" or "Messianic(sp?) Jews" but I will explain what I do know. They are of Jewish decent but have realized that Jesus is the Messiah they have been looking for. As I said in an earlier post the Old Testament speaks of two comings of Jesus. In Jesus day the Jewish people were so oppressed by the Romans they wanted the Messiah to come as a ruler and king taking over the Roman government. They couldn't see that he came as the gift of salvation. Of course many did see who and why and knew he was the Saviour they had been waiting on.
The other references to Jesus as a king will be fulfilled after the 7 year tribulation have been ended by him coming again. He will stop the war of Armageddon. This time he will be ruler and king.
The "Jews for Jesus" or whatever you want to call them have realized Jesus is Messiah and was the perfect sacrifice. He replaced the once a year, every year, sacrifice people had to make. God is a just God and has to have payment for sins. But because of his love he sent us grace and mercy in form of his son to pay once and for all. If anyone, even Jews, will read Isaiah 53 they will see what was foretold of Jesus. After all Jesus came as a Jew because they were his chosen people. But when they rejected him he grafted in the Gentiles, everyone who isn't Jewish. He is no respecter of persons and will accept whoever accepts him. After all didn't he make all of us.
I don't understand why they couldn't see but I guess it had to be in order for him to be crucified and take our place as punishment for sin. Jesus said "no man takes my life from me but I lay it down willingly". In other words no one killed him, he could have saved himself but chose to die for us.
Even today many don't see him just like in his days. But he said that most don't find the way. They just can't see. So many see him a just a set of rules to follow. He is the opposite though, his way is true freedom through grace (unmerited favor). He is there for anyone though if they will just ask.
As I said I don't know much about them but really I guess there isn't much to know. They finally realized Jesus is who he said he is. It is impossible for any one person to fulfill all that was prophesied unless he was and still is the Saviour Jesus Christ God in the flesh. Everyone who has set out to disprove the bible ends up believing it instead. If you read it it will prove Him right.
Sorry I get so long winded and just go on and on. I just want others to understand so they can know Him and His peace and joy that the world can't take away.
Isiah was written 740 before Jesus was born.
[ edited by paws4God on Jan 5, 2004 11:41 AM ]
He did turn out ok though