posted on January 5, 2004 11:53:00 AM new
If there was no such thing as the Bible, and the same religious people still felt a connection to God, I could buy it. But the interpretive teachings of the Bible, besides being a fascinating book, to me, are nothing more than a set of rules written by storytellers who wanted to control other people for self gain. To think that God would encourage such a thing as organized religion, with stipulations that would play on our deepest fears, as being good, is silly (to me).
On the other hand, I think humanity begs to conform. Most people seem lost without someone telling them how to live, so the Bible is a handy solution. It's got answers for everything, it always has... depending on how it's interpreted. You'd almost be stupid not to read it for its wealth of information, so I can fully understand why it's so popular. But does our need to believe in something (religion) blind us from seeing the real God?
posted on January 5, 2004 01:43:50 PM new
Kraft====
I don't think the rules are for control but for our protection. You don't discipline your children to control them but to keep them safe. God set up rules of the universe so everything would run smooth. If we didn't have laws or rules this world would be in total chaos. As I said earlier these rules are actually freedom not bondage. If God says not to do it it is because it isn't good for us. All of our laws are taken from the ten commandments. As for the need in everyone it is the emptiness left from when Adam and Eve sinned and broke fellowship with God. We are spiritually dead until we, of our own free will, accept what God has provided as a way back to Him, the death of His Son in our place. We are living under grace now, because of Jesus, instead of law from the Old Testament.
The reason the bible has a wealth of wisdom is because it is the Truth written by God. Do you honestly think that a book containing 66 books written over a period of around 1500 yrs, give or take a few hundred, by many writers, over several continents could be written with no contradictions and with complete cohesiveness unless it was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. Kinda like saying a printing press blew up and created the dictionary.
posted on January 5, 2004 03:47:04 PM new
Paws
Many of the christian faith fail to reach agreement as to the exact meaning of many passages of scripture. Which may lend some insight as to the reason that such a diversity of denominations of the christian faith exist, and through a difference of interpretation, points of contradiction do occur in the bible. Has the integrity of the original message remained intact or breached through translation from one language to next? What amount of embellishment has been incorporated into the original text when creating a different version or revision? If we are truly all god's children do we really need intermediate/religion to commune with god? If you possess the ability to differentiate good from evil and then act accordingly, do you need a religion to explain to you how to live?
posted on January 5, 2004 07:05:50 PM newKraftdinner
Maybe Paws4God can explain it, KD..It seems to me that religions are bigoted and claim salvation (however you may interpret that) only for themselves, excluding all others. I hear so much about heaven, for example. Although I don't believe in it or expect to go there, I wonder about all the good people who believe in different Gods or in no god at all. Will they be excluded from Paws heaven?
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Jan 5, 2004 07:17 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2004 08:02:53 PM newI don't believe in it or expect to go there, I wonder about all the good people who believe in different Gods or in no god at all. Will they be excluded from Paws heaven?
Paws can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Dogmatic Christian answer is an emphatic "yes". Those who do not accept Jesus as the only true path to salvation are doomed, plain and simple.
Paws said:
The reason the bible has a wealth of wisdom is because it is the Truth written by God. Do you honestly think that a book containing 66 books written over a period of around 1500 yrs, give or take a few hundred, by many writers, over several continents could be written with no contradictions and with complete cohesiveness unless it was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God...
NO CONTRADICTIONS, PAWS??, here's just a few of the miasma of contradictions the bible serves up, page after page. I concentrated here on just the New Testament, as it is the foundation of christianity. The Old Testament is even more perplexing in it's ambiguity. Read on:
Who was Jesus' earthly grandfather?
Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
On obeying the law:
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.
Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."
Jesus, on calling people names:
Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."
Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind."
Jesus, on his own trustworthiness:
John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."
John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
Jesus as the "peaceful" savior:
John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
should we show off our good works?
Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Is it works, or faith that saves us?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 5, 2004 08:48:57 PM new
Thanks for bolding my name too, Helen. It suits us, don't you think?
I agree with you totally, Helen. I find the vast majority of Christians can't answer God-related questions without quoting scripture too. I wonder why?
Prof, I think we're on the same wave-length regarding this.
posted on January 5, 2004 09:00:09 PM new
And, Kraft, they only quote those parts of the bible that justify their particular slant....what do you want to justify? Slavery, incest, pedophilia, murder, racism? It's all there, in the book written by the hand of god, just waiting to be clipped out of context and used
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 5, 2004 09:42:50 PM new
No one is forcing anyone to read the Bible, believe that Christ is the Messiah, or if there is even God.
When you quote the scriptures Profe, how about the lines before and after those that you say are contradicting.
I don't use scripture in talking about beliefs.
There is a BIG difference in Religion and ones own personal belief.
Helen says: Some people believe that there is no salvation outside their particular creed. That bothers me.
Why should it bother you Helen? Are you worried that people you know won't go to heaven because they don't subscribe to so and so's church? If they're not worried, why should you be? Besides, I was certain you were athiest, aren't you?
One of the worst things to discuss is religion and politics. Always an arguement
Oh I forgot, its the RT
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 5, 2004 10:18:04 PM new
Right, its the RT... a table with a few very intelligent people sitting around it. Don't let it tax your brain. Why should what bothers me, bother you?
posted on January 5, 2004 10:34:58 PM newRight, its the RT... a table with a few very intelligent people sitting around it. Don't let it tax your brain. Why should what bothers me, bother you?
Wow. Thats a nice way of saying what? I'm stupid, and you are one of the few very intelligent people? Helen, I've really tried being at the least civil to you.
Now, no, it does not bother me in the least what bothers you.
And no, I don't have a PHD
'night
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 5, 2004 10:36:47 PM new
Near, what makes you think some people here are feeling like they're being forced to believe? I don't see that at all. It's just a plea for better understanding and I don't see anyone arguing for real yet.
And you're right... you're one of the few that is VERY knowledgeable about religion that doesn't quote the scripture all the time to get their point across. I think that's admirable, Near!
posted on January 5, 2004 11:24:41 PM new
Nearthesea,
First, consider what you said to me. Briefly, you asked why, since I'm an atheist, should I care about those good people who are doomed and excluded from heaven. Do you think that because I'm an atheist that I should exclude myself from this conversation? Actually, before you questioned my concern, I had already made my position clear about why such a bigoted and exclusionary belief bothered me.
Maybe you've "really tried" to be civil but I don't appreciate courteous behavior that requires so much effort especially when those efforts result in "civility" that is so obviously insincere.
posted on January 6, 2004 05:04:37 AM new
Near, I know you don't quote scripture to justify your beliefs. I normally don't either. The examples of inconsistencies I used were just that, examples. If you want to look some of them up, I don't believe you'll find any of them have been clipped out of context so as to change their meaning. The bible was written by people, not god, in my opinion. It's a beautiful book, containing some of the most wonderful poetry and prose ever written. Ecclesiates is my personal favorite. I can find comfort and solace there like no where else. I don't happen to find a consistency of belief in the bible, but I don't have a problem with anyone else's beliefs, as long as they don't want to tell me mine are wrong. Unfortunately, that seems to what many christians do. The evangelical movement is quite strong.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on January 6, 2004 10:08:24 AM new
I can't possibly address every error or question posed here....I would be here all day, although one soul is worth all of that and more.
The most important part as far as I'm concerned is that people believe that God is a bigot, or at least they think Christians are. God is no respecter of persons. He created everyone so why would he find some inferior? He does find behavior bad though.
Someone said that discipline is control. I guess to extent it is, however do you let your child play in the street because you don't want to control them? There are certain things that have to be taught for a persons safety. Boundaries are there for a reason, for protection, not hindrance. As stated before God set up rules like gravity they keep us balanced. He set up rules for our safety and then gave us free will. You can do whatever you want but you will pay the consequences for your actions. Not because God is sitting up there waiting for you to mess up so He can punish you, but because the laws have a cause and effect. If you keep running red lights you will eventually get run over. By setting up laws it gives us order and peace. Would you want to drive across the Golden Gate bridge if it didn't have rails on the sides. You could probably make it but it would be pretty scary. If you sleep around with everyone you meet you will eventually get a venereal disease that is just the way it is. That is why God says we we should stay with one person. Is that control? Guess it is in a way but it is for our own good not for punishment. We are not to have sex with animals, it that punishment? It spreads bacteria into humans that causes problems, experts think that is where syphilis came from. It is there for the animals good but it harms us. If there weren't universal laws nothing would work properly.
God is a just God. Would it be fair if a judge let some people go but sent others to jail on his whim. The laws apply to everyone in the same way. If you don't accepted His gift of salvation through the death of His Son then you can't get into heaven. ANYONE can go to heaven as long as they claim Jesus as Saviour. People who say they don't believe in absolutes believe that absolutely. It is just that you don't believe in God's absolutes because they think He is just a set of rules.
When you keep God at arms length and then still argue he isn't there or doesn't fit your image or needs what does that prove. If you honestly ask God to prove Himself to you and then HONESTLY wait on proof I guarantee He will show you. Most don't WANT to believe because they think there will be too many rules to obey or something. Just the opposite it true. Becoming a Christian by accepting the free gift of salvation through the death of Jesus is THE ONLY TRUE FREEDOM IN THE WORLD.
Saying that Christians always quote scripture??????? Well, duh?, the book explains God because He wrote it. Isn't it easier to show someone how to get somewhere if you use a map? God sent us His word to explain Himself and how to find Him. Also there are NOT contradictions in the bible. If you will look long enough and honestly search it out it doesn't contradict. Sometimes it seems that way but if you will study the culture and the context it all says the very same thing.
Different dominations with different doctrine. The truth is most Christians do share the same doctrinal beliefs they just worship in a little different ways. The crux of the doctrine is what position they put Jesus in. If a church doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins then you have to say it is not a Christian church. The other differences aren't really that important. Other than that most don't have but very minor differences in doctrine. The Church of Christ for instance don't believe in musical instruments in worship. I still don't understand that or know why, but they worship the same Jesus and God that all Christian worship so it really isn't important.
We could stay here the rest of the year and not settle anything. It comes down to whether you honestly give God a chance to prove Himself. If you have already made up your mind nothing anyone can say or do will change your mind. I have been where you are. I haven't always been a Christian. Open your mind and more importantly your heart and see what God has for you. I have NEVER known anyone who became a believer who regretted the decision. God loves you all more than you will ever be able to comprehend, why do you think He allowed His Son to die in our place. People who don't want to believe in God only find arguments to NOT believe. I dare you to SEEK reasons TO BELIEVE.
posted on January 6, 2004 11:28:00 AM new
Paws, you are very gracious to write down your beliefs and I appreciate you not quoting the Bible to make your points. The last time we were talking about God, orleansgallery took up too much bandwidth with scripture that had nothing to do with anything we were talking about. It was scary!!
You and I have a difference of opinion about discipline and teaching. Discipline IS control. Laws/rules are made for stupid people and discipline is reserved for those stupid people who haven't been taught properly. Discipline is a last-resort-style means to control that person's thinking that works by instilling fear. Maybe I was a good child because I can't remember ever being disciplined by anyone but I do remember lots of talks and questions between me and my parents, teachers, etc. And even with the utmost trust I had in these people, if one of them ever said I was going to Hell because of whatever, my trust would end. I know in my heart, God doesn't use fear tactics. Men do but God doesn't.
Paws, God already lives inside me. He talks to me all the time. God lives inside everyone equally. Some already understand this and some need to be taught through the Bible or other means, that's all.
posted on January 6, 2004 01:40:40 PM new
Helen, whether you believe it or not, I had been sincere in being polite and civil to you of late
Do you think that because I'm an atheist that I should exclude myself from this conversation?
Please re read what I wrote, I have never asked, told whatever... for you to leave any thread or conversation.
And since I am obviously, as you state above, taxing my brain, and not one of the very intelligent people, like you, I shall excuse myself from here.
Right now, I like and respect every single poster on here, with the exception of one, now. (you surely make it hard)
So carry on with your intelligence here, I certainly can't keep up with it (according to you). I'll be up asking and participating in more mundane things here such as this auction business in the EO.
Have fun and God Bless ya Helen
Wanna Take a Ride? Art Bell is Back! Weekends on C2C-www.coasttocoastam.com
posted on January 6, 2004 02:02:15 PM new
NearTheSea - I personally hope you'll reconsider.
I'd miss you not posting here. Don't let one persons statements be the reason for your decision to leave the RT. PLEASE There are many here, myself included, who really enjoy your posts and find you very knowledgeable/intelligent. Besides....who cares what one person thinks. YOU know differently.
posted on January 6, 2004 02:08:36 PM new
Near, don't let Helen yank your chain! You already know that she can be blunt, so don't take it personally... she's like that with everyone.
posted on January 6, 2004 02:26:33 PM new
nearthesea
That's silly. I was defending the RT and myself...Read again what you said to me. I mentioned the people who were currently posting as very intelligent...KD, Kcpick4u and Prof. I didn't include myself.
If you're honest with yourself, you will admit that you intended to yank my chain and I simply yanked back. Take note of that, KD
I've read the Bible and some books on World Religions but I know relatively little about this topic.
posted on January 6, 2004 02:27:46 PM new
paws4God “That is one of the main reasons America has been so blessed, we have stood with the Jews. When we pull our support from them we can kiss our butts good-bye.”
I note you excluded Muslims from your vision for the American embrace.
‘God’s word’, or men’s words?
Multiple Magi with 3 gifts or 3 ‘wise men’.
As I understand the Greek language ‘Magi’ translates as ‘magician’, not so simple as ‘wise man’.
I guess much like tribal witch doctors, although they were certainly also seen as wise men.
At what stage in the history of ‘the word’ was it deemed truth to swing away from ‘Magi’ to ‘Wise man’, what was to purpose of this shift.
Divide and conquer?
I believe that interpretations/translations have been made with socio-political agendas in mind.
It is clear to me that the agenda for this translation of ‘Magi’ has been to exclude certain faiths from Christian embrace.
posted on January 6, 2004 05:27:48 PM new
What is the point of trying to discuss something when most people decide the truth or falsehood of any religious question by the expediant of having agreed to accept whatever their religion teaches?
It is futile. The only ones open to really considering several possibilities are those with no affiliation.
And most of the organizations taking positions on these questions have long ago painted themselves in a corner by claiming infalability so they can not even consider any change without destroying their authority.
posted on January 6, 2004 06:09:11 PM newI believe in God, but I'm not too sure about the resurrection of Jesus...
Did The Resurrection Really Happen?
By Ralph Muncaster
What Happened To Jesus Corpse If He Did Not Rise From The Dead As Indicated In the Gospel Accounts?
CBN.com -
The crucifixion of Jesus was especially well documented and accepted as fact. The crucial question then becomes, "Did Jesus rise from the dead, proving His claim to be God incarnate? Or did something else happen with His body? Or was He never dead at all?"
A key to this issue is the extreme local importance placed on handling this execution. Jesus' powerful, insightful speaking and many miracles had led the populace to request that He become king. This began to threaten the local political stability of the Romans and the religious power of the Jewish whom Jesus openly criticized. Both the absolute death of Jesus and the protection against a hoax were critical, since Jesus had claimed He would overcome death. Furthermore, He had already raised other people from the dead. As a result, all precautions were taken to secure His corpse (Matthew 27:62-66).
The Bible implies the cause of Jesus' death was cardiac arrest, indicated by blood and water from a spear thrust (medical experts confirm this).
To secure the body, a Roman guard was placed outside the tomb. Such a guard would have consisted of 16 soldiers, with a disciplined rotation for sleeping at night (every four hours, four would switch). The guards all faced the rigid Roman penalty of crucifixion if they slept outside of the assigned shift or deserted their post. The idea that all guards were asleep, considering the death penalty, is especially unreasonable.
To further ensure safekeeping, a two-ton stone was rolled in front of the tomb with Pontius Pilate's seal on it. Breaking the seal without the official Roman guard's approval meant crucifixion upside down.
The central issue -- unexplainable by Jewish leaders, especially in light of the many precautions -- is:
What Happened To Jesus Corpse If He Did Not Rise From The Dead As Indicated In the Gospel Accounts?
The official explanation is that the disciples stole the body while the guards were asleep (with the priests protecting the guards from the governor). This story was necessary only because no one could produce a dead body of Jesus, which would have stopped the resurrection story forever. Is a theft of Jesus body even remotely possible given that:
1. All 16 guards would have had to risk the penalty of crucifixion by sleeping while on duty or deserting. Surely at least one guard would be awake.
2. The disciples were in a state of shock, fear, and disarray, having seen their Master crucified. Is it reasonable to think they quickly created a brilliant plan and flawlessly executed it on the Sabbath day of rest?
3. What possible motive could the disciples have? If Jesus was not the Son of God as He claimed, stealing the body would create a lie with no apparent benefit, and death for no purpose for the disciples.
Analysis of Other Explanations
Was Jesus really dead? Crucifixion was more routine and was a longer, more visibly excruciating death than the electric chair is today. Is it likely that such professional executioners would not know death? The final spear thrust to the heart area was to ensure death. For such a political threat, they would be certain. If Jesus was not dead, what are the chances that a barely living person could move a two-ton rock from the inside of a tomb and escape a full Roman guard unnoticed?
Was the body stolen at night? Recognizing that no flashlights nor infrared sensors were available then, is it likely that a band of scared disciples carrying torches could bypass a full Roman guard, move a two-ton rock, and not be noticed? Furthermore, the Sabbath greatly limited movement. And again, for what motive?
Eyewitnesses to the Truth Died to Tell the Story
Martyrdom for a belief is not unique. But what kind of person would die for a known lie? Someone insane? Would all the disciples face hardship and death for a known lie? The disciples were with Jesus constantly for three years. They would certainly know the truth of the resurrection. Lying would serve no purpose since Jesus' ministry would then be moot. Yet historical record and reports about the disciples indicated they all died cruel deaths for their beliefs (except John). James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (Zebedee) faced sword deaths and other believers were crucified.
The Testimony of the Catacombs
Underneath Rome lie some 900 miles of carved caves where over seven million Christians, executed for their beliefs, were buried. Other believers hid and worshiped in these caves during the height of Christian persecution. The earliest known inscriptions in the walls were dated A.D. 70. Some early occupants probably communicated directly with eyewitnesses of Jesus. Since about A.D. 400, the Catacombs were buried and "forgotten" for over 1000 years. In 1578 they were rediscovered by accident. Today they can be seen as silent memorials to many who died rather than curse Jesus or bow down to an emperor's statue. Christian martyrs differed greatly from other world martyrs in that historical facts were the foundation of their beliefs -- facts verifiable at the time -- not just ideas.
Hostile Witnesses Turn Christian
Paul, a leading executor of Christians, gave up wealth, power, and comfort upon seeing the resurrected Christ, then wrote most of the New Testament. Two Sanhedrin members (not present when the Sanhedrin sentenced Jesus to death) were secret disciples. Unbelieving natural brothers of Jesus later became believers after the resurrection.
Direct Archaeological Evidence
Evidence that the people in Jesus' time believed in the resurrection is found on caskets of bones (ossuaries) discovered in a sealed tomb outside Jerusalem in 1945. Coins minted in about A.D. 50 were found inside the caskets, dating the burial within about 20 years of Jesus' crucifixion. Markings are clearly legible, including several statements reflecting knowledge of Jesus' ability to overcome death.
Examples of writings (in Greek) of hope for deceased loved ones include: "Jesus, Help" and "Jesus, Let Him Arise." The caskets also contain several crosses, clearly marked in charcoal. This is powerful evidence that early Christians believed in Jesus' ability to triumph over death. It also ties the idea of victory over death to the cross.
Prior to the resurrection, "grave robbing" was not considered a serious offense. The resurrection changed that. An inscription found on a tomb in Nazareth warns that anyone found stealing from the tombs would receive the death penalty. Scholars believe the inscription was written as early as Tiberius (circa 37 B.C) or as late as Claudius (A.D. 41-54). In the latter case, it would have been shortly after the crucifixion. Naturally, Jesus' hometown of Nazareth would be an obvious city of "interest" to officials.
posted on January 6, 2004 07:19:58 PM newThe most important part as far as I'm concerned is that people believe that God is a bigot, or at least they think Christians are.
paws, I don't believe all christians are bigots. The spiritual essence of my catholic upbringing is still very important to me....but I do believe some are, particularly those who will not allow the validity of someone else's belief, to wit:
We could stay here the rest of the year and not settle anything. It comes down to whether you honestly give God a chance to prove Himself. If you have already made up your mind nothing anyone can say or do will change your mind. I have been where you are. I haven't always been a Christian. Open your mind and more importantly your heart and see what God has for you. I have NEVER known anyone who became a believer who regretted the decision. God loves you all more than you will ever be able to comprehend, why do you think He allowed His Son to die in our place. People who don't want to believe in God only find arguments to NOT believe. I dare you to SEEK reasons TO BELIEVE.
Your statement above betrays your bigotry. You firmly believe that unless a person has sought god through JESUS, he has not sought god at all. Your bigotry will not allow you to accept that people find god in many ways. You cannot accept that what works for YOU, may not work for someone else, though they may find god in their own way. I'm truly happy that you have a spirituality that enriches your life. It's too bad you can't feel that way for others.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
Don't let one persons statements be the reason for your decision to leave the RT. PLEASE There are many here, myself included, who really enjoy your posts and find you very knowledgeable/intelligent. Besides....who cares what one person thinks. YOU know differently.
