posted on January 23, 2004 05:09:21 PM newUh... Linda... the structure of your post would suggest that you are unhappy with the number of soldiers who've died in Iraq, and that, because there's only one democratic presidential candidate opposed to the war there, the casualties will continue because Bush will be enthroned for another four years.
Are you sure you mean to have this murderer running amok 'til 2008?
Pat - I fully support this president's actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I will support any president who feels there is reason to do as we have done. I support clinton's bombing of Iraq and partisanship has nothing to do with it. Both my parents served in the US military and my eldest son, a Marine, is currently serving. And yes, all soldier deaths sadden me, but these men and women are willing to fight for their country and understood when they joined what they might be called to do. They are prepared and ready.
All life loss is sad, but the numbers of deaths are very low....and are usually focused on by those who oppose war. To those of us who feel war is sometimes necessary, these deaths are accepted as the price we pay for freedom.
posted on January 23, 2004 05:14:29 PM new
That would be a lovely sentiment if these deaths were really helping us to be free.Read my lips..Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, Iraq had no WMD.
I do think that most agree that there are times, like WW2, where war is necessary. Many would also agree that this war is not among those.
bush lied.He sent our troops there on false pretenses. All religions are equally right
posted on January 23, 2004 05:18:14 PM new
Hi Robin - Agreement on WWII....no way. There wasn't anymore agreement than there is now.
And as you and I both know the fact that womd has yet to be found, that hasn't changed the majority of the minds of those who still support this president. They can see clinton believed the same thing. So the 'he lied' doesn't cut it nor make much of a difference in his support.
posted on January 23, 2004 05:55:42 PM new
"All life loss is sad, but the numbers of deaths are very low....and are usually focused on by those who oppose war. To those of us who feel war is sometimes necessary, these deaths are accepted as the price we pay for freedom."
Linda -- and I truly mean this -- I hope your own son's empty boots never adorn a public square...
posted on January 23, 2004 08:50:51 PM newfocused on by those who oppose war.
numbers of deaths are very low
How COLD!
Focused on? Do the ones who are so ready to solve all problems with war ever just stop and focus on this:
Just stop and think for one minute that each pair of those boots had a live breathing person in them. Someone who had friends, perhaps a sister or a father who is now heart-broken. Someone who had a life ahead of him or her. Someone who didn't want to die.
posted on January 24, 2004 05:20:56 AM newbut the numbers of deaths are very low
LindaK, I have to say, that sentence makes me shudder. To say not enough have died begs the question how many is too many? 1,000? 10,000? If war is politics by other means, what objective are men and women dying and being maimed for? Where's the WOMD? Where's the democracy?
These men and women are dying for lies.
100 dead in Afghanistan, and for what?
Osama's still out there. Conditions in Afghanistan, except for Kabul, are pretty much the same as under the Taliban. Except for the poppy growing. On the increase.
"If a woman reports being beaten or raped, and by some miracle her complaint reaches court, the overwhelming attitude is: "what did she do to provoke this action?" She is held responsible while the perpetrator is considered merely reactive. Shari'a law is invoked to support this belief. Women who do report abuses are often put in prison, and held indefinitely against their will, purportedly as a protection for themselves. The real reason they are held, speculate some, is to serve as examples for other women: "if you report a man for his abusive behavior, you will go to jail".
The litany of laws passed this year governing women's conduct reads like a page out of the Taliban handbook. They include the banning of co-education classes, restrictions on women's ability to travel, the banning of women singing in public. The biggest blow yet to women's rights was dealt in November, when a 1970's law prohibiting married women from attending high school classes was upheld. This is a major step backwards for women and girls, as many under-age girls are forced into marriage and now have no hope of improving their lives. The Ministry of Women's Affairs has done nothing to protest the law.
In areas outside Kabul, conditions are much worse. Girls' schools have been set on fire. In Herat, under Governor Ishmael Khan, women cannot travel with men who are not related to them, and if women are seen with 'un-related' men, police may send them to hospital for "chastity tests". In addition, male teachers are banned from teaching women, a move endorsed by Chief Justice Shinwari.
What is particularly ominous about Afghanistan's situation is that the oppression of women is once again being given legal and religious sanction: State apparatus is being actively used to de-recognize their human rights. It is vital that Americans speak up now against this. Malalai Joya's courageous stand must be supported and her charges investigated. The U.S should stop its current support of fundamentalists and demand that women's rights be explicitly protected in Afghanistan's new constitution. "
posted on January 24, 2004 09:47:50 AM new
We live in a strange society or culture. Those who are "fighting for our freedom" can die and return home with no honor or recognition by the media. They seldom devote a minute of airtime to show the faces, the ages and a little bit about their lives. Yet they will devote hours of repeated coverage to someone like Michael Jackson, a tormented pop star.
posted on January 26, 2004 01:50:53 AM new
Linda, don't feel bad about what you said. Many a man expresses the same sentiment you do about war. It IS a cold hard fact when war is a necessity. The problem with this war was it wasn't a necessity and our country is just going to get deeper and deeper in the mud over there. Any benefits to be made by the soldiers -- even the living ones now 'stuck there' existing every single day with their mind, body and spirit in trauma -- will ultimately be recognized by very few Americans (and Iraqi's) when all is said and done.
If that isnt SOME UTOPIAN vision we are pissing our money and disposable lives into, I dont what is.
posted on January 26, 2004 12:11:18 PM new
"I will support any president who feels there is reason to do as we have done."
A blank check. Any president can do anything and you'll go along. How honest. How obediant.
How much support? Would you dirty your own hands? Or only approve?
If there is a reckening - a payment in kind for those with blood on their hands I hope they appreciate your going on the record to share the blame.
So many try to disown such statements when their masters are no longer in power and able to protect their war dogs. They try to say they embraced such monsters out of fear. But we know that's not true don't we?
posted on January 26, 2004 08:54:15 PM newTHE ASSOCIATED PRESS January 25, 2004
Baghdad, Iraq - Anti-U.S. guerrillas killed five American soldiers and at least four Iraqis yesterday in several bomb attacks in the violent Sunni Arab center of the country.
The day's violence brought the U.S. military death toll in Iraq to 512.
posted on January 26, 2004 09:23:13 PM new"All life loss is sad, but the numbers of deaths are very low....and are usually focused on by those who oppose war. To those of us who feel war is sometimes necessary, these deaths are accepted as the price we pay for freedom."
As long as the war is "over there" and not on our "soil" anything will be supported by such people.
But post a picture of a little boy with arms blown off and their attitude changes. The vitriol becomes so thick you can't stir it with an oar. Then, they say, How dare you bring to light what's really happening and place such vivid photographs before our "exceedingly sensitive" eyes.
posted on January 27, 2004 01:53:54 PM newRoadside Bombings Kill 6 U.S. Soldiers
By Hamza Hendawi Associated Press Writer
Published: Jan 27, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A bomb that exploded south of Baghdad killed three U.S. soldiers and wounded three others Tuesday night, hours after a separate bombing west of the capital killed three U.S. paratroopers and wounded one, the military said. In addition, two employees of Cable News Network died in a shooting south of Baghdad.
Tuesday's killings brought to 519 the number of Americans who have died since the Iraq war began.
posted on January 27, 2004 02:24:03 PM new
neroter12
posted on January 26, 2004 01:50:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linda, don't feel bad about what you said.
Neroter12 - I don't feel bad about what I said, it's how I've always felt and is truthful about any war. There has never been a war/conflict without loss of life, and there never will be. Our world is a long ways away from where we can 'talk' things out with fanatics.
There will always be those who feel war is never necessary, some who believe war is only necessary/acceptable if their party is making the decision and will scream bloody murder when the other party makes the decision, which is the case with most posters here.
War has been a reality of our country since it's beginnings. That is very unlikely to change. Most of the rants here are stickily political and if a democratic president were making/had made the same decisions....the argument would be going the other way.
---------------
Pat - To address my son and his possible empty boots. Don't think for one minute that every parent who has a child serving in the military doesn't think about losing their child. But military families are proud of their family members that serve and feel a sense of great admiration for those willing to place their lives on the line when called. And rather than this constant focus on 'body bags' the anti-war people make their main focus....listen to the parents who have lost their children while serving their country. You won't hear this same kind of crap. It is because of those who have served in our military, that *all* Americans enjoy the continuation of their personal freedoms. They are truly the brave ones. We respect and admire our military and hold those who have served now and before in high esteem...always aware of what we owe them. Something too many here will never understand and that's even sadder.
Re-elect President Bush!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 27, 2004 02:24 PM ]
posted on January 27, 2004 03:42:47 PM new
Linda, the issue for me, in this particular war, is that I was not/am not convinced that our freedom was being threatened, therefore, I'm sorry we've committed the brave men and women of our military to fighting it.
Certainly you understand that one can support and commend our soldiers without necessarily being in favor of the battle they've been ordered to wage. Or is that too subtle a distinction for you?
posted on January 28, 2004 06:47:56 AM new
CNN reports that guerrillas detonated a truck bomb in front of the Shahin Hotel in the ritzy Karada district of Baghdad just before midnight Tuesday. Much of the hotel was occupied by Iraq's interim minister for labor, Sami Azara al-Majun, and his staff. He and other officials were safe, but between one and 3 bystanders were killed.
Tuesday had earlier witnessed 5 attacks that killed 6 US soldiers and 2 CNN employees, along with 4 Iraqi policemen and a civilian.
Guerillas detonated a roadside bomb near Iskandariyah at 8 pm Iraqi time, killing 3 soldiers from the Combined Joint Task Force 7. Another three were wounded.
At 1 pm in Khaldiyah, guerrillas set off a roadside bomb and killed another three US soldiers along with an Iraqi civilian. The explosion wounded 3 US troops and 4 Iraqis.
A CNN crew was ambushed near Baghdad on Tuesday, with the driver of their vehicle and their translator being killed. A cameraman in another vehicle was slightly wounded.
Guerrillas in the holy Shiite city of Karbala drove up to the Polish military HQ and opened fire, killing one Iraqi policeman and wounding two others.
Guerrillas in Ramadi, in the Sunni heartland, killed 3 Iraqi policemen Tuesday outside their police station.
US troops operating in the Sunni Arab region arrested several suspected members of the Jaysh Muhammad, a guerrilla cell operating there (sounds like Sunni fundamentalists).
Members claiming to be from a Muslim party occupied a Red Crescent office in a ritzy Baghdad neighborhood Tuesday, injuring one of the Red Crescent staffers. Iraqi police came to the scene.
http://www.juancole.com/
[ edited by Helenjw on Jan 28, 2004 07:21 AM ]
posted on January 28, 2004 08:47:02 AM new
And this is why you won't see any bodies coming back from Iraq:
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/7329383.htm
It's something that Bush Sr. started.
Some days, even wearing my lucky rocketship underwear doesn't help. ~ Calvin & Hobbes
What a twisted and convoluted comparison. You are saying that since people die every day in traffic accidents that war deaths are not significant?
Edited to add, This war has done nothing to increase world security. The taliban is back in action in Afghanistan and every day from the boondoggle which is known as the Iraq war, American soldiers are shipped home dead in transfer tubes. Don't join the Bush administration in an effort to hide or minimize the tragedy of the dead and wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan.
posted on January 29, 2004 07:04:10 PM newAfghan Explosion Kills Seven U.S. Soldiers in One of Deadliest Blasts Since War Started
By Stephen Graham Associated Press Writer
Published: Jan 29, 2004
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - An explosion at a weapons cache in Afghanistan killed seven U.S. soldiers and wounded three Thursday, in one of the deadliest incidents since U.S. forces deployed in the Asian nation. The U.S. Central Command also said an American soldier was missing.
posted on January 31, 2004 10:03:30 AM newCar Bomb at Mosul Police Station Kills Nine; 3 Americans Killed by Roadside Bomb
By Scheherezade Faramarzi Associated Press Writer
Published: Jan 31, 2004
MOSUL, Iraq (AP) - A car bomb targeting a police station in Iraq's third largest city killed nine people and injured 45 others Saturday, while three American soldiers died when a roadside bomb ripped through their convoy near the oil-rich city of Kirkuk.
No longer able to credibly maintain that weapons of mass destruction may yet be found in Iraq,
the Bush administration has moved to insulate the President from any political fallout
from the collapse of his case for war.
posted on February 3, 2004 08:09:28 PM new
Yes, it's painful to put names and faces to the numbers, isn't it?
That article you linked to mentions our weird approach to establishing democracy in Iraq. If Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani participates in a democratic election there, he'll win, and his brand of fundamentalist Islam will make Saddam's reign look like a bed of roses...
posted on February 3, 2004 10:44:26 PM new
plsmith, thanks for the CNN link. Yes, it's difficult to look at but something that everyone should take time to ponder.
For all who casually repeat here time and again that the casualties are low, death is to be expected, sh!t happens, etc. please take some time and scroll the faces...... see the person behind the face.
Just think on it for a time and maybe those same words and statements won't fly so fast next time. Or maybe they will.
posted on February 4, 2004 04:25:08 AM new
Hi guys, thought I'd share this with you. I was thrilled to receive this from one of the soldiers in Iraq whom I had send a Christmas Care Package to.
I hope you can read it, but if you can't it reads:
"Tessa, wow what a great surprise! You are the reason people like me suffer hardships. You are a true American and thats worth fighting for!!. We are winning this war no matter what CNN says."
God bless him and all of them, you know? Its like they are trying to keep their chin up.
ps: TwelvePole, I suppose you would categorize me as a liberal, but here out of the mouth of one who is there he says "I am a true American"...so blaaacchh.....
(lol)
[ edited by neroter12 on Feb 4, 2004 04:25 AM ]
posted on February 10, 2004 09:06:56 PM new
Neroter (Tessa) , my original opportunity to comment upon your delightful post above eluded me when you made it. Let me say now that I'm pleased -- as one American to another -- that you've reached out to our troops in Iraq.
And now, on to the Grim Recap, which will not go away no matter how many Bush-waving, flag-stomping "patriots" flood this board with their mindless drivel...
As of Tuesday, Feb. 10, 532 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq, according to the Department of Defense. Of those, 372 died as a result of hostile action and 160 died of non-hostile causes, the department said.
Well what the fluck is killing ONE THIRD of our soldiers if it's not "hostile action" ? Do any of you know?? Do any of you care???
posted on February 11, 2004 05:00:34 AM new
Pat, you know, as I read that statement: 532 soliders died tears welled up in my eyes. These people are mothers and fathers and son's and daughters of somebody.
I just cant believe we are leaving them there to get slaughtered for some lofty ideal of our world dominance.
ed for spelling
[ edited by neroter12 on Feb 11, 2004 05:01 AM ]
posted on February 11, 2004 07:31:40 AM new"I just cant believe we are leaving them there to get slaughtered for some lofty ideal of our world dominance."
And they would like the American people to believe that it's a morality issue. Their only goal is enriching rich people and the protection and expansion of Israel. There is NO morality in it Until the election, they will chill but if reelected preemptive war will continue.
By justifying a war based on "capacity" to develop weapons of mass destruction, any country in the world can be invaded.
The Bush administration has damaged the reputation of our country throughout the world, while waging an immoral, unjust and economically devastating war.
