posted on March 3, 2004 02:16:01 PM new
One comment I would like to make -
Some of you have asked why gays want the term "marriage".
Believe it or not most gay people look to the straight community for ideas/role models on relationships, raising children and marriage.
Why? Because that is how gay people were raised - by straight parents. They look to see what their parents did right so they can apply the same techniques in their relationships. So the only references gay people have when it comes to marriage is that of a marriage defined by the straight community mostly because it has been around for centuries. Why re-invent the wheel?
Some may disagree, but this is just my opinion.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge
posted on March 3, 2004 02:38:18 PM new
NearTheSea - You bring up a very good point....brides in China not being Christian [on the whole]. Japanese brides also have gone to the 'white dress' in their marriages, and they aren't Christians either.
And on the well the one tradition I don't like is the Brides parents paying for the Big Event.... I don't like that one, and they can throw that one out, and soon!!!! LOL....start saving your day is coming. But seriously, even that tradition is changing. I know with our friends children who have recently married BOTH parents are sharing the cost of the whole wedding and in a couple of cases the bride and groom are contributing too. They want a perfect day....and that's expensive so they're willing to chip in themselves too.
posted on March 3, 2004 03:24:28 PM new
Linda! I am really getting worried here! The youngest (22) is getting very serious here. Mike is VERY traditional, and feels we should pay! I like the idea of the couple paying, or both sets of parents paying! But he's very big on the tradition of the brides parents paying! And the way my daughter is .... well, lets just say, she only wants the best (roll eyes here!) I'm thinking big HUGE dip in savings, or a 2nd mortgage, and I REALLY don't want to do that!
Good thing my oldest is more into her career, and NOT even thinking of marriage, and told me, she probably won't until she is 30 or older! (Thank God! )
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on March 3, 2004 04:31:04 PM new
NTS - I know exactly how you're feeling. And with Mike wanting to hold to tradition, well you're just outnumbered. [I'm sorry ]
My one girlfriend has two daughters, two years apart in age. They both got married within a year of each other. And they did have to get into their 'retirement' funds to pay for the weddings. They even offered them a choice, a large sum of money to put down on a home, or the wedding they always dreamed about. They both chose the wedding. And boy, were they beautiful weddings. The parents cried for months afterwards. lol
So....be thankful you're only looking at one possible wedding. It could be worse like it was for my friends. lol
What makes it worse is they had a nice wedding, themselves when they married, at the exact same location their eldest daugter was married at in Monterey, CA. Fancy wedding for them too but it only cost $3,000.00 back 35 years before their daughters. And her wedding cost right around $25,000.
NTS - NTS??? get off the floor NTS.... Someone please give her smelling salts. LOL
Just know that I'll give you all the sympathy you need as the wedding day plans start to take form.
posted on March 3, 2004 06:17:09 PM new
Linda, Thanks for your opinion, but I sincerely disagree with you and your generalizations that you mentioned on page 1.
Also, if you didn't read my post earlier, I come from a single parent family. As does my partner. (whew, there I said it and now will probably catch heck for it.)
That said; let's not confuse marriage with responsibility. In this decade of “I’m not responsible”, people have been conditioned to blame others for their actions or inactions and put their own wants and desires ahead of their responsibilities and duties.
Your “Welfare Mom” argument is better suited to a dialog on responsibility than marriage.
It is ironic to me that in the same breath you attempt to scrutinize these particular heterosexual relationships as victims of the deterioration of “marriage” you condemn homosexual relationships that support everything marriage has traditionally stood for, minus the “man and woman” coupling.
Homosexuals who wish to marry are not attempting to cheapen or change marriage. They wish to embrace it. They want to live together in a committed relationship and share the celebration of their love with their friends and families. They want to be recognized as the legal spouse of the one they have committed to and be availed to all the protection and perils that go along with it.
In this great world there is a great deal of diversity from person to person. There are always people that most will feel are strange or that they will not agree with. This can range anywhere from who someone commits to in love to the type of car someone drives, and so many other things. It is dangerous to “lump” anyone into a group and use them as an example of a point.
I don't think teaching welfare moms how to have a good marriage is going to get them off welfare faster than say, teach them job skills.
In a perfect world I guess having a father figure would be nice, but imo not necessary. That's where I tend to disagree with the whole family values trend that has been espoused by the Pres. The fact is that family values have evolved over the years and will continue to evolve. Single parents have family values, gay parents have family values, minorities have family values.
I'm not against marriage either for that matter. If it's what a couple wants then so be it, gay or straight. The reason a lot of gays want marriage instead of civil unions is because of the rights we are denied by not being allowed to be married.
And Kraft - thanks for finding my posts interesting I know, I've been reading these threads for a bit now & notice that those of us who dare ask questions are accused of being Bible bashers. That's why I put my 'credentials' out there. I'm no theologian, but I do know a thing or two about churches and religions.
I also enjoy your point of view. You have an interesting perspective that I enjoy and a pretty good sense of humor to boot!
That's enough out of me tonight. I'm exhausted and am heading for bed soon. Pleasant dreams everyone.
posted on March 3, 2004 10:44:26 PM new
mlb618 - I'm not sure what part of which post you made on page one that you are referring to. But since you've mentioned being from a single parent family I'll go with that unless you state differently.
On the subject of generalizations. It is difficult in this forum we use to address all the individual problems that cause all the marriages to desolve. And I'm very used to most not agreeing with my opinions....I have thick skin.
I have no problem with anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions/views on life. But I will call things as I see them....and in a most general way...that's how I see them.
On the gay marriage issue if you've read the huge thread where we discussed this issue, you will find my positions on this subject. You will also find a study that I used to present my side of how gay marriages, allowed in other countries for approx. 10 years, have been detrimental to traditional marriages and why. If you're interested you can read it. It does show how this further lack of committment to marriage, has caused more of their citizens to become dependent on the 'state'. Those 'welfare moms' you referred to.
I agree it is a responsibility issue too, but it also becomes a 'state' problem when more women go on welfare rather than seek help to work out their marital problems. Or when our society is so accepting that so many out-of-wedlock children are born, and so many become 'state' dependent.
I guess having a father figure would be nice, but imo not necessary. I could not disagree more. A father offers many things to each child, be they male or female that a mother simple cannot/doesn't provide. Each parent brings much to the table when raising a child. A father-figure is great, but not the same. Little boys need a father to teach them things a mother wouldn't think of teaching them. A father is the first man in a young girls life who by his loving actions she reflects herself off of him. The women she will grow into someday has been shown in studies to be directly related to what type of a relationship she had with her dad, or if there was no father figure.
I can find no fault with a president who encourages marriage, encourages those who are married to gain the skills they need for problem solving, who encourages people to marry before they begin to start their family, who has given child tax credits to make it easier on families, who has taken away the 'marriage penalty tax' etc. To me it's clear he supports and values marriage and I do too.
posted on March 3, 2004 11:45:09 PM new
Linda, I don't think gay marriage had anything to do with the decrease in marriages in Scandinavia. The article you quoted mentioned Sweden as an example but this is the latest news on gay marriage there.
Sweden poised for gay marriage nod
From correspondents in Stockholm
March 3, 2004
THE Swedish parliament's laws committee is considering three motions that would pave the way for gay marriages, replacing a current law on same-sex civil unions that already gives gays the same rights as married couples, officials said today.
Gay couples in Sweden have since 1995 enjoyed the same rights as heterosexual couples. While the public commonly refers to gay unions as "marriages", they are in the eyes of the law officially called "partnerships".
The three motions currently under consideration all propose a change in the marriage law to make it "gender neutral", eliminating the last distinction between the two kinds of unions after gays were in February 2003 granted the right to adopt children, Marianne Mostroem, a spokeswoman for the parliament, said.
"The laws committee began its work today. A first review is to be submitted on March 9, and the debate in parliament is scheduled for April 28," she said.
posted on March 4, 2004 12:18:08 AM new
Kiara - I really don't mean to be rude, but I am very tired of addressing the same subject over and over and over. Anyone who reads that huge thread on this subject and clicks on the link I provided will see my personal views and read the arguments, the stats of how things have changed, not only in one country, and the arguments as to why.
posted on March 4, 2004 08:02:47 AM new
Linda, right before I posted that last night you were the one discussing it and you said You will also find a study that I used to present my side of how gay marriages, allowed in other countries for approx. 10 years, have been detrimental to traditional marriages and why.
I just followed up by saying that your study is faulty because it mentioned Sweden and blamed them and gay marriages aren't even allowed there yet.
Your article also says
.Scholars have long suggested that the relatively thin Christianization of the Nordic countries explains a lot about why the decline of marriage in Scandinavia is a decade ahead of the rest of the West.
The Nordic countries are the leaders in cohabitation and out-of-wedlock births. They are followed by a middle group that includes the Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain, and Germany. Until recently, France was a member of this middle group, but France's rising out-of-wedlock birthrate has moved it into the Nordic category. North American rates of cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birth put the United States and Canada into this middle group. Most resistant to cohabitation, family dissolution, and out-of-wedlock births are the southern European countries of Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece, and, until recently, Switzerland and Ireland. (Ireland's rising out-of-wedlock birthrate has just pushed it into the middle group.)
Although Sweden leads the world in family decline, the United States is runner-up. Swedes marry less, and bear more children out of wedlock, than any other industrialized nation. But Americans lead the world in single parenthood and divorce. If we bracket the crisis of single parenthood among African-Americans, the picture is somewhat different. Yet even among non-Hispanic whites, the American divorce rate is extremely high by world standards.
posted on March 4, 2004 09:29:20 AM new
My life wasn't affected before gays were getting married and it won't be affected by it afterwards.
We were discussing the tradition of marriage. I'm just pointing out that there are many reasons why marriage is on the decline and I think it's just a natural progression of society, that's all.
I still believe in traditional marriage with the certificate and the father, mother and children all living happily ever after. But if others choose to live their lives in a different way it doesn't bother me.
I agree with your comment that the artcile Linda has referred to with the link she provided.
And by looking closely at it we can answer the key empirical question underlying the gay marriage debate. Will same-sex marriage undermine the institution of marriage? It already has.
The above was from the article that Linda provided.
My view on the article was that they are saying gay marriages have led to the problems that they are currently experiencing. I have refuted that statement because we dont have gay marriages in the US and still have problems with a decline in the marriage rate, an increase in the divorce rate and more and more children living with unwed parents.
Linda do you agree that the article suggest gay marriages have caused all their problems. If not then please expalin your view on what the article is trying to suggest.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge
posted on March 4, 2004 11:39:30 AM new
logansdad, that article gave a multitude of quite understandable reasons why marriages were on the decline, especially since the 70's when the slide started.
In Sweden, as elsewhere, the sixties brought contraception, abortion, and growing individualism. Sex was separated from procreation, reducing the need for "shotgun weddings." These changes, along with the movement of women into the workforce, enabled and encouraged people to marry at later ages. With married couples putting off parenthood, early divorce had fewer consequences for children. That weakened the taboo against divorce. Since young couples were putting off children, the next step was to dispense with marriage and cohabit until children were desired. Americans have lived through this transformation. The Swedes have simply drawn the final conclusion: If we've come so far without marriage, why marry at all? Our love is what matters, not a piece of paper. Why should children change that?
Then to blame it mostly on "gay marriage" just doesn't make any sense at all. I read the article a couple of times and I don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion.
posted on March 4, 2004 11:52:04 AM new
What bothers me most, Linda, is that you have become a spokesperson for the right (not your doing, btw - ). Besides the usual comments from Twelve and Bear, where are all the other righties that disagree with this issue? Don't you have any input of your own, or do Linda's posts blanket your own thoughts, as usual? No wonder your skin is so thick, Linda - nobody else on the right has the guts or motivation to post their own views. Either that, or their views are so lame, they're afraid to see how stupid their thoughts look in print.
posted on March 4, 2004 12:25:46 PM new
Last night when I was thinking about the way Linda and Twelvepole agree so readily on almost every issue perhaps they are related. It crossed my mind that perhaps Twelvepole is Linda’s little brother or her son.
Thanks, Kraft. I think you’re cool also as are most others that post here, whether I agree with them or not. You start some of the most interesting topics and you have a super sense of humor. BTW, my crocuses started blooming last week.
posted on March 4, 2004 01:54:55 PM new
Kiara:
Then to blame it mostly on "gay marriage" just doesn't make any sense at all. I read the article a couple of times and I don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion.
I am glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. Linda had posted that link weeks ago in another thread and I wanted her opinion on what the article was getting at since the article seemed to blame gay marriages for the problem but I never did get her opinion.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge
posted on March 4, 2004 03:44:52 PM newIt crossed my mind that perhaps Twelvepole is Linda's little brother or her son.
Now that IS funny
But then what would EAG be...another son? Would bear be my brother? Would replay be a cousin? Would NTS be a much younger sister or my daughter? Would all the others I've agreed with on occassion on these threads be distant cousins?
And just FYI IF my eldest son, who is executive editor for a newspaper, posted here the lefties here would really have a fight on their hands. He's very articulate, unlike his mother, who does much better face to face than on this medium.
KD - It's 'cause you guys have run them all off. Really though....some aren't as fortunate as we are and don't have as much time to spend here ....sitting back, relaxing, sharing poems, and making friends.
posted on March 4, 2004 04:13:10 PM new
Obviously, Twelve's old enough to be everyone's great grandfather, so you guys must be fossils!
Linda, being time-restricted is no excuse for making you take on the whole right agenda. Although, it does make you a leader than a follower, and that's a good thing.
posted on March 4, 2004 04:41:29 PM new
Awwwwwww, Kraft, thanks! I think all of you are pretty cool too. Logansdad, I think you are pretty brave myself for coming out & saying who you are on this board. You've taken a lot of grief for it.
And Kiara, you too have great points of view & a great sense of humor.
Hey, since this thread started out with questioning the tradition of the wedding dress, I have a question for all of you. What about the costs these days of putting on a wedding? This is not meant as a slam against anyone, but I just don't understand how anyone can spend $25,000 on the wedding of their 'dreams'. Does that seem outrageous to anyone else?
Maybe it's my age showing (and no, I'm not that old, lol) but in this day and age where both of the people in a relationship have a job, why do they still go to their parents for money? I just don't understand parents getting a second mortgage to pay for an event that has a greater chance of ending in divorce than it has of staying together.
And when did weddings get so big and expensive? I've seen some of my relatives wedding pics from the 1920's and they were simply dressed and each had one person standing up with them.
Any thoughts?
Some days, even wearing my lucky rocketship underwear doesn't help. ~ Calvin & Hobbes
posted on March 4, 2004 04:42:59 PM new
You guys crack me up. LOL
----
KD - No one makes me do anything. I do it because I enjoy it.
And as I've teased in the past, I do it so some posters know there's another 1/2 of American out there that don't see all the issues the same way they do.
posted on March 4, 2004 04:57:23 PM new
Oh I was kidding about the 2nd mortgage on the house. We WILL end up paying for this one's, I just know it.... why? because she's a spoiled brat... LOL .... no because HE thinks this is the way it should be.
My father bought my sister a house! when she was first married, at the ripe old age of 19! besides paying for the wedding.
But that was looooooooong ago, in the 60's so maybe they did that more then? I don't know, he sure didn't buy ME a house!
be back later, gotta have a serious talk with him now!
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on March 4, 2004 05:33:05 PM new"KD - No one makes me do anything. I do it because I enjoy it."
I meant by proxy, Linda. Their lack of input leaves you out in the open (only my opinion)... oh, and YOU, LindaK, trying to drive people nuts with your comments? I never noticed.
MLB, isn't it ridiculous? The outfits, the cake, the flowers, the gifts, etc.,... not to mention the stupid diamond ring. It's a hoot what people buy into!
posted on March 4, 2004 05:59:02 PM new
You all just crack me up.
NTS, so glad to know you won't take out a 2nd mortgage. I know I've heard of parents doing that (no hard facts to prove it) but I just don't get it. And if my mom had the money to offer, wedding or house down payment, man, I'd be taking the down payment in a heartbeat! lol
It is ridiculous. I want to get married someday & I know it will cost money, but I want to keep it real reasonable. I just want my family & friends that I have great relationships with there to help me celebrate.
But seriously, even that tradition is changing. I know with our friends children who have recently married BOTH parents are sharing the cost of the whole wedding and in a couple of cases the bride and groom are contributing too. They want a perfect day....and that's expensive so they're willing to chip in themselves too.
)
I agree with that too - everyone here is pretty cool.
