posted on March 3, 2004 08:05:38 PM new
:: Do you find the issues with the gays and the Boy Scouts different? Is it okay with you that the liberals are forcing/bullying them to go against what the group has always stood for since it began because THEY don't like it/agree with it?::
Personally I do not see the fascination with either organization but it may shock you to believe that no, I don't think it is OK. The Boys Scouts views are public and quite well known in their exclusivity against gays. I personally find it closed minded and trivial but if they have a right to those views. Rather than butting heads I feel it would be more productive to start an organization with a more open minded base that holds more toleranece of social and religious differences. I alo feel that that a more tolerant atmosphere is better condusive to developing a balanced and successful individual.
::And in case you aren't aware, fenix, there are many people that have pulled their children out of public schools for exactly the same reasons. They're tired of having their children exposed to many subjects they disagree with. They're home schooling and putting them in private schools.::
Did you honestly believe I was unaware of an issue that has been around since I was in school? Yes, I do know that and my personal opinion is that it is irresponsible parenting. A parent has every right to WANT to protect their children from the percieved evils in the world but I don't believe they have the right to deny their children the information neccessary to make an informed decision. No matter how hard you try, you cannot isolate your child from the world at large forever. By denying kids interaction with people who believe differently from themselves and by denying them an opportunity to make informed decisions for themselves during the their younger years you are doing them a great disservice and potentially creating social cripples.
I'm not just working on theory here, this is someone that spent two years in the ultimate private school experience - a boarding school. Our student body was made up about evenly of those whose parents desperately wanted to to protect them from the evils of public school and those whose parents who desperately just wanted there kids somewhere other than home. By far the ones that had the most problems adjusting were kids that had been "protected" by their parents. They started out completely lost and bewildered dealing with kids of other races, nationalities, and beliefs and somewhere in the middle of the game usually lost themselves in the experimentation of formerly forbidden by or outright ignored by their parents.
It's one thing to go thru that experience when you are 17 and in an atmosphere where there is a safety net in the form of an infastructure that is aware of potential problems and has daily contact to be able to guide you thru the rough parts. It's another thing entirely to go thru that on a college campus or in the workplace.
I do not believe that responsible parenting includes an active conscious denial of information.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by Fenix03 on Mar 3, 2004 08:08 PM ]
posted on March 3, 2004 08:24:29 PM new
fenix - My sons are 33 and 35. When they were in public schools the teachers used to comment how protected those at their school were from 'real life' too.
I do not believe that responsible parenting includes an active conscious denial of information. You, obviousy have a right to your opinion. If every parent that was doing something someone didn't think was "responsible parenting" no would would still have their own children.
I don't agree that you have the right to force other parents to teach their children in any way other than the way they wish to. If you were a parent and I said your child was going to be exposed to something that was totally off the wall to your way of thinking...you might just understand a little better how they feel.
And you're making an assumption, I believe, to think that the only parents who want to teach their children the facts of life, all the many sexually related issues, are religious extremists. You don't actually know whether they're teaching their children or not. Because these parents don't like what Planned Parenthood represents....doesn't prove/mean they're not teaching their children about the issues.
posted on March 3, 2004 08:40:56 PM newGood parenting would baffle those on the left... pretty understandable...
What hogwash. As if good parenting only came along with a particular political philosophy...
twelve, you're always challenging those with a military opinion that is different from yours to prove their military experience, so here's one for you. How exactly is it you have even the remotest idea what being a good parent means? What is your parenthood experience?
___________________________________
posted on March 3, 2004 08:50:26 PM new
profe - I think if that question is addressed to twelve, then you should address it to all who've posted here. I know of at least three posters on this thread who aren't even parents and they've felt they had the right to give their opinions.
posted on March 3, 2004 09:01:55 PM newprofe - I think if that question is addressed to twelve, then you should address it to all who've posted here. I know of at least three posters on this thread who aren't even parents and they've felt they had the right to give their opinions.
I don't see any non parents expounding what "good parenting" is on this thread linda, with the exception of twelvepole. This thread isn't about good parenting, it's about a Girl Scout boycott. I'm addressing twelve with the same challenge he delights in giving others who dare to have an opinion about defense who haven't been in the service. There is a serious logical discrepancy there and I'd like to hear what he has to say about it.
My question stands...
By the way, I's jess pullin' yer leg bout the Boy Scout cookies...
___________________________________
posted on March 3, 2004 09:04:12 PM new
::I don't agree that you have the right to force other parents to teach their children in any way other than the way they wish to.::
I don't either, you have the right pull your child from the situation, you do not have the right to decide what information will be held from others. When I was in school parents had to sign a form consenting t their child taking part in the sex ed section of our science class.
::If you were a parent and I said your child was going to be exposed to something that was totally off the wall to your way of thinking...you might just understand a little better how they feel. ::
Not at all. I would find out what the subject was and take the opportunity to open an discussion and allow my child to make a decison on the topic based on opinions from both sides.
::And you're making an assumption, I believe, to think that the only parents who want to teach their children the facts of life, all the many sexually related issues, are religious extremists.::
That would be incorrect, I have not once mentioned religion into this issue. Some are religious extremeists, some are just over protective and some are simply dealing with their own sexual issues which could result from a number of differing experiences. No matter what the reason, and no matter whether parents have had discussions regarding sexual issues with their children I do not understand the fear of having your child exposed to different ideas. If you have instilled what you feel to be a proper moral compass in your child, why would you actively try to deny them a full scope of knoweledge? By denying your child access to differing views you are saying that you do not trust them to make the right decision for themselves.
How is a preteen/teen supposed to develop crucial traits like self respect and confidence when their own parents are sending the message that they cannot be trusted with making intelligent informed opinions on something as basic as sex?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 3, 2004 09:12:17 PM new
Kiara - Are you a parent? And if those people wish to say so themselves they will. But I've posted here a long time and I do know what people have stated in past threads. No matter what helen says.
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profe - This is what you asked of twelve. How exactly is it you have even the remotest idea what being a good parent means? What is your parenthood experience? I'm saying that if it's a good question for one, then it's fair for all to answer. Especially since we're discussing if parents have a right to teach their own children themselves or should be forced to have their children taught something that's against their own morals/beliefs.
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And I guess I had cookies on the brain. ....I'm just jealous you guys have all those cookies....even if bunni's are staring at her.
posted on March 3, 2004 09:22:26 PM new
I admit that I am not a parent and have no intention of being one and I have stated in this thread what I think examples of good as well as irresponsible parenting are.
But as someone who had 3 1/2 parents (not a lot of contact with the step-mother so she only gets half credit ) Who had vastly differing views on social, political and parenting issues and as someone who has been the confidant of a number of friends kids I don't think I am exactly unqualified to give my opinions.
I don't know Linda - Am I off base in my belief that all people, know matter what their age have the right to information which would allow them to make intelligent informed opinions regarding sexuality, sexual beliefs and reproductive issues?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 3, 2004 09:25:04 PM new
Linda, on these boards I can't remember ever discussing my marital status or whether I'm a parent and I prefer to leave it that way.
posted on March 3, 2004 09:31:13 PM new
I'm anonymous, for all you know I could be sitting here with my two pregnant teenage daughters, all of us stuffing our faces with Girl Scout cookies, and waiting for our next welfare check.
posted on March 3, 2004 09:44:50 PM newyou have the right pull your child from the situation, you do not have the right to decide what information will be held from others.
Oh really? I don't agree. So everyone that doesn't agree with any issue, shouldn't speak out about their opposing views. They should just leave? It's never worked that way, fenix.
We're speaking about a group that parents volunteer in these types of organizations. I did so for all the years my sons were in cub scouts. They do so because they judge it's in their best interests to have their children involved in a 'wholesome' program. They also have a right to say anything they wish, anywhere they wish. To state their objections and to work for change. Please notice that this 'discourse' did bring about a change.
When I was in school parents had to sign a form consenting t their child taking part in the sex ed section of our science class. But your article here did say that, did it?
::If you were a parent and I said your child was going to be exposed to something that was totally off the wall to your way of thinking...you might just understand a little better how they feel. ::
Not at all. I would find out what the subject was and take the opportunity to open an discussion and allow my child to make a decison on the topic based on opinions from both sides. I'm having a very difficult time believing that fenix....especially if children were allowed to [say] pray in school and you objected to it even if your child wasn't forced to do it. I doubt you'd feel you would just pull your child out, or explain why some people want to pray. I think you'd be having a 'hissy fit' just like these parents are over PPH.
I do not understand the fear of having your child exposed to different ideas.
It is not fear. It's wanting to teach your own children your values, etc. And not have them constantly tossed out like is happening so often today. They're being taught that they can have abortions and don't need their parents permission. That totally works against the family structure. And that's only one example. There are many.
If you have instilled what you feel to be a proper moral compass in your child, why would you actively try to deny them a full scope of knoweledge?
We're talking about 10 year olds. It's not denying them anything...it's your assumption things are being denied. Again you don't know that. And it's up to the parents as to when to speak with their children. And if you've been around any children lately you'd know they've already heard most of all this just talking to their piers. They themselves may question a parent about this or that.
By denying your child access to differing views you are saying that you do not trust them to make the right decision for themselves. Again who says you opinion on what's going on is correct? Wanting to instill ones own values in their own child, doesn't mean they aren't trusted to make decisions for themselves or that they aren't getting all the information. The parents want that responsibility....they don't want to 'give that parenting right' to anyone else.
How is a preteen/teen supposed to develop crucial traits like self respect and confidence when their own parents are sending the message that they cannot be trusted with making intelligent informed opinions on something as basic as sex Who says that their parents are sending them that message? Those who want their views/morals to be presented as the **only** right way of doing things? You're making an awful lot of assumptions on this subject fenix. An awful lot.
posted on March 3, 2004 09:56:15 PM new
Kiara - That's fair. Smart move on your part....not to have mentioned.....
And LOL at your next post. I can just picture you now.
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I don't know Linda - Am I off base in my belief that all people, know matter what their age have the right to information which would allow them to make intelligent informed opinions regarding sexuality, sexual beliefs and reproductive issues?
Who's to say if you're off base and you're certainly intitled to your opinion. I just asking you [collectively] to be open to the FACT that there are parents who don't want the most modern views on sexual issues taught by others. These sensitive issues aren't the same as teaching science or math to students. Most agree on those subjects and how their taught....well...wait a minute....I guess science is necessarily a good one either. But say math and english. Those subjects don't get into one's personal beliefs/religious faiths. To me they're different and personal to each family. It's not the governments job to decide how a parent raises their child. It's a family issue. [and no..I'm not speaking to when they're being abused.]
posted on March 3, 2004 10:45:30 PM new
Linda - you hit the trifecta of completely wrong opinions about me.
:: Oh really? I don't agree. So everyone that doesn't agree with any issue, shouldn't speak out about their opposing views. They should just leave? It's never worked that way, fenix. ::
I think that I have stated numerous times that all opinons should be heard but there is a difference between expressing your opinion and strong arm intimidation tactics to force your opinon on others
::When I was in school parents had to sign a form consenting t their child taking part in the sex ed section of our science class. But your article here did say that, did it? ::
Did you mean did NOT say that? No it did not say that parental consent was required. For about the fourth time, it explicitly said that the scouts did not attend the program where the pamphlet was distributed.
::I'm having a very difficult time believing that fenix....especially if children were allowed to [say] pray in school and you objected to it even if your child wasn't forced to do it.::
Apparently you believe me to be much more of a zealot than I am. I have a Baptist father, an Espisopalian mothern, a Lutheran step father and a Christian step mother. My parents decided that when I found the need for a religion in life I would seek out the one correct for me and follow it in whatever form best served my need and I have always respected and appreciated that decision. If I had a child I would not care what they decided to believe and if they came to me I would help them to research the various options. Religion and god are the most personal decisions one can make and no one should influence ones decision on what is right for you as an individual when it comes to that decision. If my child wanted to pray they would have every ounce of my support. And ifthey id not want to they would have the same level of my support to protect them from potential ridicule for that decision. I have never said that I begrudge anyone their religion. I disagree with organized school prayer because
1) Too many religions - and I don't care what anyone says, there is no such animal as "non-denominational"
2) I've always been baffled why a third party is given the decision as to when to schedule you conversations with your god.
if you want to give ten minutes at the beginning of each day for each student to silently do whatever they wish whether it be pray, sleep, or catch up on homework have at it. Of course I would actually prefer that my child were actually taught something duringnthat time, that why they are in school to begin wit isn't it?
::It is not fear. It's wanting to teach your own children your values, etc. And not have them constantly tossed out like is happening so often today. They're being taught that they can have abortions and don't need their parents permission. That totally works against the family structure. And that's only one example. There are many.::
And if you child shares your belief system they will judge this to be contrary with their personal beliefs and dismiss it. Kids brains are not like a video tape, they remember more than the just the most recent information fed to them.
::Wanting to instill ones own values in their own child, doesn't mean they aren't trusted to make decisions for themselves or that they aren't getting all the information. The parents want that responsibility....they don't want to 'give that parenting right' to anyone else.::
Wanting to instill your own values is not wrong, Dening them access to differing opinions is the same as saying "we don't believe you'll still agree with us if you hear another opinion so we are denying you exposure to it.
Let's apply this to a different variable. Your congressman is reviewing a bill coming up for a vote. Do you believe he can make the right decision only if he hears your opinion?
::Who says that their parents are sending them that message? ::
I do Linda- I believe that when you purposely deny someone factual information on both sides of a topic because you want them to hold the same opinion you hold you are telling that person that you do not trust them to make the correct decision for themselves.
:: You're making an awful lot of assumptions on this subject fenix. An awful lot.::
Actually Linda - I made observations regarding messages being sent. You have stated your incorrect beliefs that I....
1) Would have a different opinon on a membership to the scouts depnding on whether the issue was conservative or liberal
2) Assume that all home schoolers and anti-sex education supporter are religious zealots
3) Believe that those that disagree should just go away and have no reason to express their displeasure
4) Would deny my child the right to form their own religious beliefs.
Who is making all of the assumptions here?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by Fenix03 on Mar 3, 2004 10:46 PM ]
posted on March 3, 2004 11:03:30 PM new
::Who's to say if you're off base and you're certainly intitled to your opinion. I just asking you [collectively] to be open to the FACT that there are parents who don't want the most modern views on sexual issues taught by others.::
Of course there are . Now, if a child is curious and goes to those parents with questions regarding those "modern views", how many of them do you believe would be willing or capable of giving them answers that contain no negative bias? Do you really ever picture someone like Twelve being able to present a child with both sides of the homosexuality issue? It is a very rare person that could present an unbiased arguement on both sides of an issue which is why I believe that children need unfettered access to those with opposing opinions. Once you child has that information then you sit down with them and discuss their reaction to it, you feelings on it, etc.
::These sensitive issues aren't the same as teaching science or math to students. Most agree on those subjects and how their taught....well...wait a minute....I guess science is necessarily a good one either. But say math and english. Those subjects don't get into one's personal beliefs/religious faiths. To me they're different and personal to each family. It's not the governments job to decide how a parent raises their child. It's a family issue. [and no..I'm not speaking to when they're being abused.]::
OK, now I am confused, you don't believe that social and sexual issues should be discussed in school because it can be counterproductive to the individual moral and religious beliefs of the parents but you do believe that there should be organized prayer?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 3, 2004 11:08:53 PM newOK, now I am confused, you don't believe that social and sexual issues should be discussed in school because it can be counterproductive to the individual moral and religious beliefs of the parents but you do believe that there should be organized prayer?
Ah, but you see, as long as it is their moral or religious beliefs being touted, that's all right. Everyone should be exposed to & kowtow to their beliefs. But it's not a two-way street--their kids must never be exposed to any "different" attitudes or beliefs. Not all religious & parental rights are equal in some people's eyes.
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
on the gay and boy scout issue I ASKED if you saw them differently....no assumption was made there.
you did state they had a right to pull their child from the situation, if they didn't agree. I said they have every right to state their own views. One can confront issues hey aren't required to run from them.
yes, your article "did not" mention signing an approval form.
I don't think you're a zealot and I never called you one.
And if you child shares your belief system they will judge this to be contrary with their personal beliefs and dismiss it. This is one area where I think lack of ever raising a child, comes into play. A pregnant teen who's scared out of her mind, and who can obtain an abortion without her parents knowing about it might just take that route and the values her parents have worked to instill in her won't even come into play. There are just things children don't ever feel comfortable sharing with their parents....at least while they're going through different stages of their development.
Wanting to instill your own values is not wrong, Dening them access to differing opinions is the same as saying "we don't believe you'll still agree with us if you hear another opinion so we are denying you exposure to it. lol....again I don't agree. Children don't live in a vacuum, they know what abortions are. But they're being taught they don't need to discuss these sensitive issues with their parents. They can turn to PPH or get an abortion without their parents knowledge. While IF the parents knew they could offer their support. I've seen it first hand fenix.
I believe that when you purposely deny someone factual information on both sides of a topic because you want them to hold the same opinion you hold you are telling that person that you do not trust them to make the correct decision for themselves. I understand what you're saying and I've said you don't know that information IS being denied them. You're assuming if it's not taught in school/other group settings then they're not being taught.
You have stated your incorrect beliefs that I....
1) Would have a different opinon on a membership to the scouts depnding on whether the issue was conservative or liberal. NOPE....I ASKED you a question. Questions are how people clear up issues they're not sure of.
2) Assume that all home schoolers and anti-sex education supporter are religious zealots. Where did I say that?
3) Believe that those that disagree should just go away and have no reason to express their displeasure See my paragraph #2 - I quoted what you said.
4) Would deny my child the right to form their own religious beliefs. I never said that either.
Who is making all of the assumptions here? Well it sure isn't me. But you do have a way of putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.
Now, if a child is curious and goes to those parents with questions regarding those "modern views", how many of them do you believe would be willing or capable of giving them answers that contain no negative bias? See this is where we will never see eye-to-eye. Because I believe it's no one's business how many of them give answers that OTHERS think contain no neg. bias. That's the delightful part of each family. They each do it their own way.
Do you really ever picture someone like Twelve being able to present a child with both sides of the homosexuality issue? I think each child is fully capable of observing what goes on in our society....in their little part of the world. When any issue comes up IF a child questions a parent on it, they will give theie views. If their views are negative to certain behaviors they have that right....THEY are the parent. The child will see that others disagree all on their own. They're much brighter than you give them credit for being.
It is a very rare person that could present an unbiased arguement on both sides of an issue which is why I believe that children need unfettered access to those with opposing opinions. Trust me fenix, in our present day and age, they DO hear opposing opinions, at much earlier ages than most parents are ready for.
OK, now I am confused, you don't believe that social and sexual issues should be discussed in school because it can be counterproductive to the individual moral and religious beliefs of the parents but you do believe that there should be organized prayer? I believe children should be allowed to practice their religious freedom when ever and where ever they wish. No where in our Constitution does it state their right to practice their religious freedom stops at the school gates. I don't believe in forcing anyone to pray.
posted on March 3, 2004 11:45:13 PM newas long as it is their moral or religious beliefs being touted, that's all right. Everyone should be exposed to & kowtow to their beliefs. But it's not a two-way street--their kids must never be exposed to any "different" attitudes or beliefs. Not all religious & parental rights are equal in some people's eyes.
And you see this being done differently somehow...when the liberal way of thinking is said to be the ONLY right way?
Re-elect President Bush!!
posted on March 4, 2004 12:48:33 AM new
Well as at least one poster has decided to take the anon route, I too will not be answering any more about children except to say that I come from a large family and I think those that have children have done a great job... we all share the same beliefs
Tolerance of what is wrong thinking is not acceptable...
I wear the badge of anti-queer proudly kiara, nothing you can say will change that... want to call me a bigot for it... fine
I like how you chime in about a subject you yourself are not prepared to give an answer to... pretty typical of you though...
Think I will go and send off a nice check to the Boy Scouts...
posted on March 4, 2004 09:26:40 AM new
:: This is one area where I think lack of ever raising a child, comes into play. A pregnant teen who's scared out of her mind, and who can obtain an abortion without her parents knowing about it might just take that route and the values her parents have worked to instill in her won't even come into play. ::
I thought we were talking about ten year old being given access to information, not pregnant teens going in search of it. Now you are arguing parental consent laws which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
::Children don't live in a vacuum, they know what abortions are. But they're being taught they don't need to discuss these sensitive issues with their parents.::
PPH does so much more than just abortion, their main focus is on preventing not ending pregnancy and it's not as if they go around telling kids not to tell their parents, they encourage them to but the fact is that there are some family situations where it is not feasiblt. If however the parent had years earlier started dialogs regarding different views it probably would be much easier for their teen to come to them
::Trust me fenix, in our present day and age, they DO hear opposing opinions, at much earlier ages than most parents are ready for. ::
Then wouldn't it make more sense to acively participate in that process and rather than relying on johnny down the street have those opposing positions be factual and accurate rather than pulling them from any ituation that may provide them with such info?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 4, 2004 09:46:09 AM new
I know quite a lot about parenting and I truly believe it's best to let a child know all the facts and show them the best choices. It also helps to live your own life in a way that sets a good example for the child. While they are under your roof, set the rules at a young age and have them abide by them.
Once they leave home, set them free and hope that their knowledge will guide them to do what's best. Also remember that they have their own minds and will form their own opinions as they grow and respect them for that, even if their views turn out to be different from your own.
I mostly agree with what Fenix says and she would probably make a good parent.
posted on March 4, 2004 10:17:59 AM new
fenix - Until and unless you personally have worked at an abortion clinic, I don't believe you have a clue as to what goes on there. This 'so much more' is a very false perception some have. In about 99% of the cases they're there to get an abortion.
These young girls aren't seeking protection info. they already know all about it. When you try to talk to them about it they make it clear they're not interested in hearing it all over again.
Those of you who don't believe a parent has a right to raise their children any way they wish to, or to raise them with their own morals/values are simply out of luck. It's not the governments place nor anyone else's place to tell parents what they have to do with their own children.
And when those parents think their children are in groups that are affiliated with groups like PPH, that are against the values they want to raise their OWN children with, they will work to make changes. And they are.
posted on March 4, 2004 10:45:10 AM new
I never said the Boy Scouts sold cookies. The Boy Scouts do have fund raisers at times - popcorn I believe. But whatever they are selling I will continue to refuse to buy from them because of their discriminatory practices.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge
posted on March 4, 2004 11:06:18 AM new
Some parents use groups such as the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts as babysitters and another source of education for their children. That is fine by the parents as long as what the groups are teaching their kids are constant with the beliefs of the parents. The minute the kids are taught something that contradicts what the parents believe in, then the groups are corrupting their children.
Parents can't have it both ways. They should be the one's responsible for their children's upbringing.
Marriage is a Human Right not a Heterosexual Privledge
posted on March 4, 2004 07:09:03 PM new
LindaK, you said:
These sensitive issues aren't the same as teaching science or math to students
Sex education is science, specifically, biology, anatomy, and physiology. A person well informed in such issues can take better care of their own and their families' health, leading to lower insurance costs, and a more productive life. Information IS power.
If parents want their kids kept ignorant, they can send their kids to their local feudal school with their own money, and those wonderful vouchers. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on March 4, 2004 07:22:28 PM new
The thing is some people say they value human life, when it's oh so obvious they really don't. They don't want us bombing all those poor innocents and killing them. They don't want us enforcing the death penalty. But hey if a woman wants to abort a child, who could live on it's own, for no reason other than she 'can' those same people are okay with that.
Others don't want their children to abort their grandchildren and don't need ultra liberals telling them how to raise their own children. And they're the one's you all criticise. what a laugh.
------------
helen - posted on March 4, 2004 12:15:41 PM
It's great to see so many posters butting heads with the butthead so skillfully.
It should make everyone question the slogan, "Re-elect President Misleader".
Helen
posted on March 4, 2004 07:43:54 PM new
[quote]Whenever the hot-button issues of stem-cell research and abortion are raised, as in the current disputes about embryo cloning in South Korea and the construction of a local Planned Parenthood clinic, there is a widespread assumption that every fertilized egg is already a precious human being and will develop almost automatically into a healthy baby. The facts discovered by scientists in the past half-century are quite different, and they carry some disquieting implications.
Imagine that we could identify 1,000 American women with access to adequate health care who had an egg fertilized in the past 24 hours. If we check nine months later (assuming no multiple births), how many reasonably normal babies will there be? The rate of birth defects is about two to three per 100 and stillbirths are rarer, so we might think, "At least 950." But a more accurate answer is, "Probably less than 500, and maybe no more than 200."
Many fertilized eggs are genetically malformed, and others, for reasons unknown, do not attach properly to the uterine wall. Published statistics differ, but estimated failure rates range from 50 percent to an astonishing 80 percent. For example, Harold Morowitz and James Trefil, in their book, The Facts of Life: Science and the Abortion Controversy (Oxford, 1992), conclude that "slightly fewer than a third of all conceptions . . . lead to a fetus that has a chance of developing."
Those who believe that a fertilized egg instantly acquires an infused soul and an intrinsic right to life should find those numbers alarming. They imply that nature (or God himself, if God is in charge of nature) is causing the deaths of more fetuses every day than all abortion doctors combined.[/quote]
I value the human life that is presently existing, not potential. If your Bush valued the potential, every pregnant woman in this country would have access to GOOD prenatal care, and that is most definitely not the case. The US leads the industialized nations in infant mortality. The US is one of the highest ranking countires in neonatal death among the industialized nations.
Put your money where your mouth is and support universal health care.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
