posted on June 14, 2000 03:38:45 AM new
Well, here is another perspective of sorts.
I spent something close to $1500 on eBay auctions last month. A rare event, but true. I was looking for a few specific items that have a tendency to be a wee bit pricey. The first thing I looked at, of course, was the feedback rating. I never bid on an item unless the seller has a good, established rating. The second thing I looked for was the option to use PayPal. I paid for every one of those auctions through PayPal. If an auction did not allow PayPal payments, I simply skipped on to another auction.
So, how many $$$ in profits are those who refuse to use this free service missing out on?
posted on June 14, 2000 07:09:42 AM new
Whenever businesses develop a business policy such as return policies and they enforce the policy with a customer sometimes the customer gets upset. Oftentimes the customer states that they will not shop here anymore. (Everytime a customer said that, I would see them back in about a month. This was at a retail store I used to work at.)
It is the individual's value system. Personally, as a Christian, my master is not money. If I do not want to use pp (which I do BTW) I won't. It is my "CHOICE." Sure I want to make a profit but at what price? This is a part-time hobby for me. The little extra dough and *I do mean little extra* is nice, but my value system is that I am not about to jump into something blindly as in the business account, get locked into something that I am a slave and be part of an organization that is not in agreement of my values. Not specifically pp, just generally speaking.
I believe everyone, no matter what side of the fence one is, needs to be -must be- respected. For awhile there were numorous posts making statements of "PayPal Bashers." To me that abusive language is unexceptable and I was surprised AW allowed it. IMHO it may have intimidated voices that would have contributed diverse opinions to this discussion.
No one is right, no one is wrong. We all have our difference of opinions. No one is better than the other.
If a business/seller doesn't want to use pp, than fine it is their *CHOICE.* They can run their business the way they want to. When or if you have a business, you may run it the way you want to.
I run my business the way I want to, keeping in mind customer service, but if I want to lose money by not selling to international buyers (BTW I sell internationally) or not to except personal checks (I do accept them) or if I want to ship only Priority Mail (I always provide diff options) and so on and so on that is my *business.* You can't please everyone. If I want to lose your bidding because of the things I don't offer or do offer, than it is my *business,* not yours. Maybe an anti-pp bidder might specifically buy from an seller who isn't using PP, too?¿? Who knows.
I might turn someone away because I sell gay and lesbian items. That is my business. Not yours. You may sell or buy something, do or don't do that might cause me to go to your competitor. Is it any of my business? I just move on to the next person.
In closing what happened to eBay being the world's largest flea market? There has been a couple of descriptions on what eBay is (comparing it to Macy's), but isn't it a flea market? Anyone?
I agree with you to a point. eBay does sell space. They sell it to me. I list auctions. I accept PayPal AND Billpoint. If I have a question or comment about either I should be able to post it on their FREE boards. (They don't charge to post there, and for God's sake don't give them any ideas) It's not like the discussion was about auctions on another auction site.
I don't shop Macy's. But my local K-Mart has a community board, where people post all kinds of ads, even commercial ads for sometimes competing products. I guess the reason K-Mart allows it is because if your are going to be reading that ad at least you are in their store.
My bottom line is, I am eBays customer discussing an eBay transaction, what is wrong with that? If eBay bought a shipping company, would it be forbidden to discuss other methods of shipping on eBays boards?
posted on June 14, 2000 08:12:17 AM new"We all have our difference of opinions. No one is better than the other."
No, you are absolutely wrong. My opinion is better than yours. Reading these boards, I can honestly say that my opinions on most subjects are better than 95% of the absurd messages I read here day after day.
posted on June 14, 2000 10:08:43 AM new
coonr
I agree with you 100% about e-bay users being able to post on the boards. I also agree that paypal should be allowed to answer those questions.Free.I doubt that e-bay would have had a problem with them helping a user solve a problem. It is the promotional part of what they are doing that is at the heart of this.
P.S. I noticed that the two people that kept beating the billpoint drum here, have been booted off, while all those that love paypal, this sites partner service, seem to have run of the boards. I don't know all the details, but on the surface it looks to be about the same thing e-bay has done. Personally, we don't care much about, or use either one. There could be a hundred of these companies, or none. It makes no difference to us. We do our own thing, in our own way. We are dinosaurs. No on line banking. No electronic checks. No escrow. No Lets Be Buds type credit card outfits. If people choose not to buy from us because of this, we respect that, and just sell to someone else.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:59:53 PM new
I want to respond to the accusation that PayPal somehow lied about its policy. This is untrue and unfair.
The login reminder page restates a policy that has been in place for months. The facts:
1. Below, in full, is the email that we sent to users in July. The relevant portion clearly states that "businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
2. A clear "Rules" box on our "Personal vs. Premier/Business Account" page (which highlights the differences between account types) states the requirement that businesses must sign up for a business account. This box has been on our site since June.
3. Our terms of use have also stated for weeks that if you are using PayPal to conduct "e-commerce on a regular basis," you need to sign up for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business account.
We have always said that PayPal is free for personal use. That remains true today. We have also always said that business use requires a Premier or Business account.
I realize that there are a number of occasional sellers who want clarification on what constitutes business use. Obviously, there is a big difference between the occasional seller who sells one beanie babie a month, and a seller who sells dozens of items per month. Today's reminder was only directed at sellers who conduct e-commerce on a regular basis.
It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all.
From: PayPal News [[email protected]]
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2000
Subject: Important news about your PayPal account
Dear [FIRSTNAME],
Last month we wrote to tell you about the launch of
PayPal’s new Premier and Business Accounts. These
accounts included premium features such as 24/7 customer
service support and an automatic daily sweep of funds into
your bank account. And we also promised you that many
more premium tools were still to come. Now, we at X.com are
pleased to deliver PAYPAL'S LATEST SET OF FEATURES for
Premier and Business users:
· Web Accept: accept payments directly on your website
· Auction Tools: new ways to manage your online auctions
with ease
· Batch Pay: send affiliate payments to thousands of
people at once
· Downloadable Transaction Log
· Unlimited Credit Card Payments
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
ACCEPT MONEY ON YOUR HOMEPAGE
Our new Web Accept tool lets you accept payments directly
on your website. By posting Web Accept buttons on your
web pages, BUYERS CAN PAY YOU FOR PURCHASES WITH PAYPAL
INSTANTLY -- without leaving your site. Accepting
payments online has never been easier! (Pricing for this
feature is only a modest 1.9% on payments received, with
no flat fee.) Learn more about Web Accept by going to
our website:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/web/index-outside
Also, our Business Account users now will have NO LIMIT ON
CREDIT CARD FUNDS RECEIVED. Buyers who have reached their
PayPal $2,000 credit card spending limit can still charge
their card when sending a payment to Premier and
Business users.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUCTION MANAGEMENT TOOLS
Collect auction payments quickly and easily with INSTANT
PURCHASE FOR AUCTIONS. This feature lets buyers pay you
simply by clicking on a logo in your auction listing; this
generates a pop-up form where buyers can enter their PayPal
username and password to pay you without even having to
login to our website. Also new, our AUTOMATED PAYMENT
REQUEST creates online invoices that you can distribute to
your winning bidders. It's fast -- you can send out 100
invoices in just 10 minutes! Visit our website to learn
more about our new auction tools for Premier and Business
Account users: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/auc/auction-business-tools-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SEND PAYMENTS THROUGH BATCH PAY
Now pay hundreds -- even thousands -- of people all at
once with X.com’s new Batch Pay tool. If you run an
AFFILIATE PROGRAM, A COUPON/REBATE PROMOTION, OR A
"PAY-TO-SURF" COMPANY, you no longer have to depend on
expensive and slow check runs to pay your customers --
Batch Pay can do it for you. (Batch payment transactions
cost the lesser of 2% or $0.25 per payment, far below
the cost of printing and mailing a check.) For more
information on X.com's Batch Pay, go to:
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/batch-outside.
And for those of you who participate in a "pay-to-surf"
or affiliate program, be sure to tell your administrator
you'd like to BE PAID WITH PAYPAL!
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
PREMIUM FUNCTIONALITY
In addition to all the features available on PayPal
personal accounts, Premier and Business users can take
advantage of these other special features and services:
· A DOWNLOADABLE TRANSACTION HISTORY available in
Quicken, QuickBooks, and comma-delimited text formats.
· Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. (This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.)
· A 24-hour-a-day, 7-days-a-week exclusive customer service
hotline.
· Frequent special promotions, such as last month’s "Free
Listing Week."
· Automatic eligibility for X.com's AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
· Many Business Account users will be eligible to be
featured in our upcoming SHOPPING TAB, where over 2.5
million PayPal users will be able to make instant, online
purchases directly from you.
For more information on all the features vailable to Business
and Premier users, please visit our site:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s fast and simple to upgrade your personal account in
order to take advantage of these premium features. Please keep
in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms
of use to create a Business Account. To upgrade, just login to
your PayPal account and click on the "Upgrade Now" button. The
upgrade process only takes a couple of minutes, and you’ll be
able to use our new payment tools immediately.
We appreciate your choice to use X.com’s PayPal service to send
and receive money, and thanks for helping to make PayPal the #1
payment service on the Web!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:04:56 PM new
Hi. Call me what you like, I'm glad he was kicked off eBay. I wrote PayPal Damon last week for help with a PayPal problem and he was no help. Answers as canned as any from Safeharbor. Got to get back to removing the paypal logos from my auctions, thank goodness theres only 26 of them, guess I'll have to take it on the ones that are already bid on. Peace!
fonze
Akk! I have 61 auctions, I'll be at this for hours.
[ edited by fonze on Sep 13, 2000 05:26 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 11:10:22 AM new
The first major sign of disintegration of the laissez faire system we've all enjoyed has reared its Korporate head. First comes the hungry Takeover Gang. Next comes the candy-coated PR spin to combine accusations, self-aggrandizement, self-victim portrayal, denial and total disregard of the chief source of honest complaint. Then comes the my way-or-no way threat. Next comes the abdication of the opposition. Then the final phase, government intervention and anti-monopoly lawsuits, and we're all back in harness.
posted on September 14, 2000 11:53:31 AM new
As posted on the Pay Pal site under the Autcion Tools tab: (Date September 14, 2000)
Pay Pal makes your auction payments fast, free and secure. Buyers can now make instant payments and sellers can now accept payments from anyone with a credit card.
FAST, FREE AND SECURE
Unless I have lost the ability to speak and understand in my native tongue overnight, and unless I am not seeing the words as they are appearing and only as I might WISH they appear, the above phrase means, to me, that the service rendered by Pay Pal is provided with no cost to buyer or seller. Is there something I am missing? If so, would someone clear it up? Did someone change the meaning of FREE? If, what I've been reading is true, then Pay Pal is guilty not only of bait and switch, but of false advertisement as well. And we are supposed to feel SAFE AND SECURE with Pay Pal? By whose standards? If the skipping and skirting around the REAL issues by the assigned PR person remains in its same-cut-paste form, not only are we NOT going to get answers to our honest questions, but we are left open to further deceit and continuing disregard for our questions. If Pay Pal is under the complete control or X.Com now is not allowed to express opinions of its own, maybe the merge should be rethought and re-reviewed by a power higher than either company. Both should also check the policy on garage-saling before they speak to us with their forked tongues which they obviously think we are too simple to understand the cloak-and-dagger approach to our questions and concerns.
posted on September 14, 2000 12:24:14 PM new
"I call on eBay to be honest about their intentions. If Billpoint did not exist, this would never have happened. "
Oh kettle, thou art black!
The Paypal "team" is upset because ebay has tossed them off the board under false pretenses? Yet, you admit to violating at least one of ebays rules - not providing correct user information. Surprise! Ebay has made it very plain that they will terminate anyone who does not follow their rules - like them or not.
Secondly, what you call "interact "(ion), Ebay might very well be correct in calling
"advertising" .
I am not one to defend ebay, or their frequently whimsical decisions, but I think it is very amusing that PayPal of all parties
should cry deception.
There is a favorite piece of advice that is frequently handed out on this site by all of ebays cheerleading supporters:
IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT, GO ELSEWHERE
This is usually followed by some trite comment that "a business has a right to operate the way it wants"
Since Paypal obviously wouldn't argue with the second comment, don't you think it is just precious that they so loudly protest the first?
posted on September 14, 2000 12:34:41 PM newlindajett1: No, no -- you're missing the point COMPLETELY! PayPal IS free for sellers, unconditionally and forever. As long as they don't actually SELL anything, that is.
You see, all along PayPal has said that they are, and will remain, free for "personal use" [well, actually they've only said that since June when they created the personal/business distinction for the first time, but let's not get bogged down in useless facts, OK?]. So sellers can use PayPal ABSOLUTELY FREE as long as they are not engaging in any sort of business. Of course, the moment a seller actually sells ANYTHING he or she is, by PayPal's definition, engaging in business and therefore REQUIRED to sign up for a business account, but that's BESIDES the point! The POINT is that PayPal is, has been, and will always be ABSOLUTELY FREE for sellers who have a personal account. Just as long as they don't sell anything.
Oh, and remember -- just because sellers who sell anything are now "required" to sign up for a business account, they will not be "forced" to do so. The new terms which require sellers who sell to sign up for a business account, however, will be "enforced" in the near future. But "enforcing" the rules is not the same as "forcing" anybody to comply with them. Unless, of course, you have access to a dictionary....
I hope this clears everything up for you!
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 01:30:42 PM new
Barry,
If you know, would you be kind enough to direct me to the PayPal document that clearly defines PayPal's terms of use for a Personal account and a Business account.
I have been looking for this document for the past 2 days with no success. Today the CEO of PayPal referenced these terms in a news article. Does it exist only in his mind?
As far as I can tell when PayPal announced Business accounts there was no redefinition of terms of use for either account type. I didn't have anything sent to me other than an ambiguous, convoluted, and misleading email that said "business sellers are required to upgrade" without a clue of who or what PP defines as a business. In the absence of these new terms auction sellers made inquires and were told that upgrading was optional. With this reply auction sellers, in good faith, continued to use Personal accounts to receive payments.
Then out of the blue using some unknown criteria Paypal flashed a force choice screen on some sellers requiring them to either upgrade on the spot or affirmativly assert they were not selling anything to gain access to their accounts.
The reason given by PayPal is that "businesses" were being less than "honest" by not voluntarily upgrading to be in compliance with these elusive terms of use. Do you know where I can read these terms of use, if indeed it does exist? Thanks.
posted on September 14, 2000 01:37:28 PM new
And to think I spent all this energy and time wasting to get "VERIFIED" only to find out that no one can pay me without there being a CHARGE?
Guess that's also why I'm not receiving emails from PayPal telling me that they've inserted their logo in all my new auctions?
posted on September 14, 2000 01:42:51 PM newpineyhurst: Errrr... you are aware that I was being completely and utterly sarcastic in my last post, right? Just checking....
As for your question, as far as I know that only place that "clearly" defines what PayPal considers to be a "business" [as opposed to an individual] is the notice that SOME suers saw when they tried to log into their account yesterday.
If you go to the PayPal site and click on the "Business Accounts" link, you'll be taken to a page which deals with personal v. business accounts:
Unlike the infamous notice [and despite PayPalDamon's constant lie that the notice simply repeated what the terms have been all along], it does NOT actually define what a "business" is. It simply states "In order to reserve Personal Accounts for individual use only, we require all businesses to sign up for a Business Account. Individuals may sign up for either a Personal or Premier Account."
That's it, as far as I can tell...
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 02:01:14 PM new
Barry,
Thank you very much. I did get the irony of your post but I thought there might be some basis of fact somewhere that I may have missed.
I looked and I agree with your take on this situation.
Actually it is even more complicted if you factor in the "Always free for sellers and buyers" and other deceptive inducements.
The question now becomes how can Paypal try to enforce essentailly unpublished terms of use.
Paypal is entitled to define terms of use for a Personal account and a Business account. Paypal is not, however, entitled to engage in deceptive business practices. (Otherwise known as lieing.)
Thanks. I think I have a better idea of how to word my complaints.
posted on September 14, 2000 02:06:02 PM new
Hi, I've seen a couple of recent posts mention that paypal is a free service but is it still a free service for sellers? The last time I logged into paypal I was taken to an upgrade screen which explained paypal's costs for credit card processing, etc. Said full- and part-time auction sellers are considered premier and upgrade would be necessary if I was a seller. Well, I am, so I upgraded. But I thought about it...once I pay my ebay fees there really isn't enough pie left to give paypal a slice, too and while I appreciate the free service while it lasted, I decided to stop using paypal and go back to just checks/money orders. Did I misunderstand the upgrade screen? Is paypal still a free service for sellers? Thanks for your response. obla
posted on September 14, 2000 02:14:20 PM new
Obla: I couldn't begin to try to explain in a way that makes sense the events of the past 2 days with PayPal. I don't understand it myself. All I can suggest is that you get comfy and read the Paypal threads and reach your own conclusions.
