posted on March 23, 2004 08:28:26 AM new
You probably ought to wait a week or two before you make that statement Twelve.
Personally I think their effort has more to do with antagonizing than with problem solving and will do little to further the cause of peace in the middle east but then Sharon has shown repeatedly that he has little real interest in peace. That or he is the most incredibly incompetant peacemaker seen in a very long time.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
JERUSALEM - Israel will strike at more Hamas leaders, the Israeli defense minister said Tuesday, a day after the founder of the Islamic militant group, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, was assassinated in a missile attack.
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and his security chiefs decided to try to kill the entire Hamas leadership, without waiting for another terror attack, security sources said Tuesday.
The killing of Yassin threatens to escalate Israel-Palestinian fighting. Fearing revenge, Israel beefed up security throughout the country and at missions abroad.
Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians thronged the streets of Gaza City for Yassin's funeral procession Monday, and Hamas threatened punishing revenge attacks against Israel. It also hinted that the United States could become a target for backing Israel.
...much snipped...
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on March 23, 2004 08:46:17 AM new
Fenix is right. Now expect retaliation to begin...This action just served to escalate a never ending cycle of terrorism.
posted on March 23, 2004 09:03:24 AM new
This puts Americans in further danger in Iraq.
From David R. Sands Israel's killing of Yassin puts U.S. in line of fire.
At a time when American soldiers and civilians throughout Iraq are already daily being targeted by Sunni Muslim guerrillas, for Ariel Sharon to order the murder of Yassin and seven others while they were leaving a mosque is an act of treason against his American ally. It doubles the danger for every American man and woman in Iraq.
Sands also says, ' Several members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council expressed alarm over the killing. "The terrorist networks will use it as justification for more attacks," said Adnan al-Assadi, a member of the fundamentalist Shi'ite Dawa Party who serves on the council. "This could happen in Iraq because the Israelis are well protected in Israel and the Americans are more vulnerable here in Iraq."
So not only has Sharon done nothing for us or the Iraq effort, but ever since September 11 he has behaved with brutal insensitivity toward American interests. The weekend after that horrifying event, Sharon was attacking Palestinian targets, further inflaming anti-American feeling. A decent man would have put off such actions out of respect for the 3000 US dead. Indeed, a decent man would have sought peace and reinvigorated the Oslo process to help the US out. Sharon wouldn't recognize decency if he were served a steaming bowl of it next to the two lambs a day he must devour to stay at that obscene weight.
The most dangerous regime to United States interests in the Middle East is that of Ariel Sharon, not because he fights terrorists, but because he is stealing the land of another people and is brutalizing them in the process--and those are people with whom the rest of the Middle East and the Muslim world sympathizes. A US counter-insurgency fight against Muslim radical extremists requires winning hearts and minds, which is impossible as long as Sharon behaves the way he did Monday, since everyone in the region knows that the US coddles the Israeli Right. Israel once had a proper prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, who knew how to make peace and how to be a good partner for America. Sharon is not good enough to shine his shoes.
posted on March 23, 2004 10:07:52 AM new
Others see attacking Hamas leaders is working too.
In the early months of the intifada, this macho pretense was sustained by the Israeli government's tacit decision not to target terrorist ringleaders, for fear such attacks would inspire massive retaliation. Yassin and his closest associates considered themselves immune from Israeli reprisals and operated in the open.
What followed was the bloodiest terrorist onslaught in Israeli history, climaxing in a massacre at Netanya in March 2002. After that, Israel invaded the West Bank and began to target terrorist leaders more aggressively.
The results, in terms of lives saved, were dramatic. In 2003, the number of Israeli terrorist fatalities declined by more than 50% from the previous year, to 213 from 451. The overall number of attacks also declined, to 3,823 in 2003 from 5,301 in 2002, a drop of 30%. In the spring of 2003, Israel stepped up its campaign of targeted assassinations, including a failed attempt on Yassin's deputy, Abdel Aziz Rantisi. Wise heads said Israel had done nothing except incite the Palestinians to greater violence. Instead, Hamas and other Islamic terrorist groups agreed unilaterally to a cease-fire.
In this context, it bears notice that between 2002 and 2003 the number of Palestinian fatalities also declined significantly, from 1,000 to about 700. The reason here is obvious: As the leaders of Palestinian terror groups were picked off and their operations were disrupted, they were unable to carry out the kind of frequent, large-scale attacks that had provoked Israel's large-scale reprisals.
Terrorism is a top-down business, not vice versa. Targeted assassinations not only got rid of the most guilty but diminished the risk of open combat between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian foot soldiers.
posted on March 23, 2004 11:12:38 AM new
I agree with you too, Fenix. (How you doing, btw? ) Sharon is no peace keeper. His goal has always been to wipe out the Palestinians. That's why him and Bush are pals.
When will their "Great Wall" be finished? That should help keep the bad people out of their homeland.
posted on March 23, 2004 11:27:19 AM new
How do you 'make peace' with those who don't want to work out agreements but rather only call for the total destruction of your people? It's never going to happen.
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A Look at the Leaders of Hamas
The Associated Press
Published: Mar 23, 2004
The top leaders of the militant group Hamas following the assassination of its founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin.
-Abdel Aziz Rantisi: The 54-year-old pediatrician, who was chosen Tuesday as Hamas' top leader in the Gaza Strip, is considered a hard-liner. He opposes any truce with Israel and rejects compromise with Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority. Rantisi spent seven years in Israeli prisons and was expelled to Lebanon for one year in 1992. He was jailed by the Palestinian Authority for 21 months in the late 1990s. Rantisi escaped an Israeli assassination attempt last June.
-Mahmoud Zahar: A Hamas spokesman, the 53-year-old Zahar also is considered a hard-liner. Zahar was Yassin's personal physician. He served as Hamas' liaison with the PLO in the mid-1990s, but now opposes compromise with the Palestinian Authority. Zahar has been imprisoned by Israel and has been jailed repeatedly by the Palestinian Authority.
-Ismail Hanieh: A top aide to Yassin, he also was expelled to Lebanon in 1992. Like Rantisi and Zahar, he is a member of Hamas' decision-making political bureau. Hanieh is considered more pragmatic, although and other Hamas leaders all advocate the destruction of Israel. Hanieh is Hamas' go-between with the Palestinian Authority.
-Khaled Mashaal: Mashaal, a physics teacher born in the West Bank, oversees Hamas' political bureau from Damascus, Syria. Mashaal, in his late 40s, helped negotiate a truce last summer that temporarily halted Palestinians attacks on Israel. Israel has accused Mashaal of masterminding suicide bombings. In 1997, agents from Israel's Mossad injected him with poison darts in Jordan. He survived after Jordan's King Hussein coerced Israel into sending the antidote. In 1999, Mashaal was expelled from Jordan and moved to Syria.
-Moussa Abu Marzook: Abu Marzook, in his early 50s, Mashaal's deputy in the political bureau. The U.S.-educated Abu Marzook, who holds a Ph.D. in industrial engineering, lived in the United States for 15 years. In 1995, he was detained by U.S. authorities on suspicion of involvement in terrorism. He was expelled to Jordan, and later sent by Jordan to Syria. Like Mashal, Abu Marzook is unlikely to be targeted because of his location.
AP-ES-03-23-04 1341EST
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And KD, that wall has saved many Israeli lives.
Re-elect President Bush!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 23, 2004 11:35 AM ]
posted on March 23, 2004 11:35:01 AM new
What you think and say are self-fulfilling, Linda. If Sharon is convinced there will be no peace and the Israeli's are convinced of no peace, there will be no peace.
Arafat had the backing of Saddam when he pulled out of negotiations. Now there's no excuse to not get back into negotiations. But if peace isn't the goal, no amount of talk will help.
posted on March 23, 2004 11:42:51 AM new
KD - What you and others don't appear to be willing to accept is that Israel has tried for all these years to have peace. There's never going to be peace when your enemies call for your complete destruction.
Have you ever read where Israel has called for the complete destruction of their enemies? I sure haven't. Open your eyes girl.
Look at the number of bombings/murders that have *decreased* since they've targeted the terrorist leaders. How you guys can see what *hasn't worked* [peace talks] and keep calling for more of it, while at the same time closing your eyes to what has resulted in the lessening of murders, is just beyond my understanding.
posted on March 23, 2004 12:12:01 PM new
Linda, I'm not forgetting that the Palestinians are human beings. There will be rebels in any group of people but the whole shouldn't be blamed. Peace talks work through momentum. They are aimed at being the ONLY way to work things out with any upcoming leaders. Once they break down and war starts, that itself starts the precedence (of war) and that gains momentum. That's why they have to avoid war at all costs. These are dangerous times now because of the U.S. going to war. It's been an OK stamp for all that think of the negotiations route as an alternative.
If the U.S. wasn't armed to the hilt, I wonder if other countries would think of you as, as much of a threat as the U.S. see others? As the world's most powerful country, it's your responsibility to every other country to show leadership and not imperialism, or you'll get you a$$ bit off when you least expect it. Same goes for Israel. Sharon needs the boot, imo. I knew things would escalate the minute Bush invaded Iraq. It's the kind of momentum we don't need, Linda.
posted on March 23, 2004 12:42:49 PM new
Krafty - hey - doing good... keeping busy... insomnia and ADD have comspired to have me working on three new websites while I try to figure out how to impliment one more project that has been camping out in the back of my head.
Linda - let's not fall too hard for the poor poor put upon me act that Sharon and Isreal have been working for years. Lets remember that damn near every time there is a period of peace a few Isreali tanks decide to take a stroll over a settlement or someone discovers the location of a "wanted fugitive" and so blow up the block that he lives on along with all of his neighbors.
Palestine is far from innocent but Sharon is nothing more than a terrorist with a title and a powerful guilt card.
You really want to make a step towards peace? Get Sharon the hell out office. Will this end all conflicts? No, but then Isreal decided to plunk themselves down in the middle of their enemies when the world would have given them any piece of real estate thei asked for. The Arab Isreali conflict is as old as time and no one is going to resolve it. These are never going to be happy neighbors it's just not going to happen. The best you can hope for is choosing to ignore each other and it's king of hard to do when one nations leader declares an open intention of destruction and assasination.
Reamond - An Isreali leader orders multiple assasination of targeted leaders and you think the change needs to take place in Islamic values? How does that work?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 23, 2004 01:06:37 PM new
KD - Imo you are blind to what's been shown to work.
The results, in terms of lives saved, were dramatic. In 2003, the number of Israeli terrorist fatalities declined by more than 50% from the previous year, to 213 from 451. The overall number of attacks also declined, to 3,823 in 2003 from 5,301 in 2002, a drop of 30%. In the spring of 2003, Israel stepped up its campaign of targeted assassinations, including a failed attempt on Yassin's deputy, Abdel Aziz Rantisi. Wise heads said Israel had done nothing except incite the Palestinians to greater violence. Instead, Hamas and other Islamic terrorist groups agreed unilaterally to a cease-fire.
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Reamond - You want me to feel sympathy for a disabled killer? He's been in his wheelchair since he was a young boy. Sure didn't stop him from being the leader who has ordered all these attacks.
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fenix - I see it, EACH AND EVERYTIME, as being just the opposite of what you claim. Each time it looks like the peace talks might just have a change, Hamas kills somemore people. They don't want peace....they want the destruction of Israel. Their OWN words say so.
Deny it all you want....when their leaders stop saying that's what they want, when their leaders stop the killing....then maybe I'll believe your position on this issue.
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For some reason those who don't support Israel can't *hear* what the hamas leaders themselves say. Just like they didn't appear to believe that the terrorists mean what they say when they speak about destroying the US. It's like you're blind or maybe so scared you think they really don't mean what they're saying, themselves.
posted on March 23, 2004 01:24:20 PM new
twelve - Some here have called for just that.
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These people raise their children from birth to want to kill Israeli's....and others.
We're on their list too but look how many appear to support their cause.
posted on March 23, 2004 01:41:55 PM new
ABSOLUTELY agree Twelve. Can you imagine how the Israeli's would have handled a attack like 9/11 had it occured on their soil.
'We have dispatched Dr. David Kay...to search for the bio-warfare agents we believe hidden in Senator Kerry's forehead. If Senator Kerry has used botox as part of a wrinkle enrichment program, he is in violation of UN Resolution 752. Upon receiving Dr. Kay's report, the weapons of mass destruction that Senator Kerry so adamantly insists do not exist...may well be above his very nose.'" --Dick Cheney when asked whether John Kerry has had Botox treaments
posted on March 23, 2004 01:46:17 PM new
I called for it Linda, because it is just no pleasig the Palestinians. They will not live in peace with the Israelis...
If we look at how we now live in peace with the Indians... that should be a good example for them...
posted on March 23, 2004 02:00:03 PM new
sorry twelve - I really wasn't singling you out. There have been others that have called for the same thing here on these hamas vs Israel threads.
They're just not saying so now.
I hold the position that Sharon's on the right track now. I think his actions of targeting the leaders IS working. I'd rather he approach it from that position and see how that goes.
If this targeting of the hamas leaders causes a war between the Palestinians and Israel, I'd support the Israel side whole-heartedly.
And now that the Palestinians are also blaming the US....should they do one terrorist attack against the US or Israel I'd fully support bombing them.
posted on March 23, 2004 06:01:54 PM newReamond - An Isreali leader orders multiple assasination of targeted leaders and you think the change needs to take place in Islamic values? How does that work?
The assasinations are not without reason. The latest is the leader of Hamas and is responsible for hundreds of murders of innocent people.
If you think for one minute that Sharon leaving office will change anything, you're sadly mistaken.
posted on March 23, 2004 06:29:55 PM new
Sharon is answerable to his people. Negotiations mean what they have always meant in the past: dead Israelis.
You listen to one wacky "united worlder" after another with this "negotiate" and peace through the UN crap, and you just have to roll your eyes. They have the mindset of the last time the restaurant gave them a bad meal and they "worked it out". This is more than somewhat naive when the other person's position is that you are not allowed to exist. They seem absolutely amazed that there are bad people who "negotiate" only to poison your water tumbler.
You also have to wonder about left wing harpies who are beside themselves about the Israeli security wall, which has been shown to be totally effective.
Far from being a problem for the US, the situation is more like hammer and anvil. US intelligence and operations now have a base in the region.
The problem will be solved the day the Israelis take over the area, exterminate every terrorist on their list and then negotiate with those who practice "true" Islam.
As technologies get more advanced, the day is coming when one of these eleventh century cavaliers spreds some plutonium around St Peter's Sq. or something like it. Then the lefties here will be screaming for whoever is President to exterminate every last Arab before their grandkid's grammar school is next.
You have to have the resolve of a person who will strap a bomb on a ten year, and turn to those entrusted with your safety and tell them to do whatever it takes. And you must trust your own strength. Who do you call upon for support? The Germans, who like the Arabs dreamed of genocide, but unlike them had the power. Maybe the French, who for better treatment from their German masters giddily marched hundreds of thousands of French jews off to extermination camps. Maybe we could have Soweto, Swaziland, Luxembourg, et al, pass a resolution telling the Arabs not to blow up skyscrapers.
Maybe the lefties are right, maybe we should negotiate like the call they put out in 1945, for us to "talk" to the Japanese. Oh, but wait, didn't the Japanese military try to prevent Hirohito from calling on the people to end the war, so they could all die according to the bushido code AFTER Hiroshima AND AFTER Nagasaki. Gee, if only we just TALKED to them.
And if only we would just TALK to Hamas. They couldn't be as bad as the Japanese, could they???? Why that would mean that instead of pragmatism, there exist in people just pure evil, and no lefty could swallow that.
posted on March 24, 2004 01:16:57 AM new
Oh yes!
The North, South, East, West, Right, and Left Bank should all belong to Israel;
For God has told them so!
They’re on a mission from God.
The Kach Party is alive and well.
Other Semites Need Not Apply.
That's the way to do it!
posted on March 24, 2004 05:23:04 AM new
Look, the Palestinian leadership had more peaceful Israeli leaders to work with.
They crapped on Barak.
The situation is ugly no matter which way you cut it.
But the fact is that Israel is targeting the people that make the decisions to send poor people who are for the most part being used as pawns and being paid to strap bombs to themselves.
That's sick. I have yet to hear of any of these leaders sending their own babies to do such a thing.
Israel I think, is simply bringing the fight to those who are instigating it and benefit from it continuing.
I bet even Palestinians can appreciate this. At least the ones that want to move forward.
I think if you asked the average person in that area what they'd want, they'd tell you they want peace.
They don't want to throw rocks, they don't want to have to serve duty as soldiers, they don't want to think twice before getting on a bus, and they want to work and build their lives.
And because the world is full of #*!@ and we all are basically hypocrits people will continue to suffer in that part of the world.
War is hell. They are at war. It's not a traditional war, but it is a power struggle.
I'm sure if the Palestinian people truly want to move forward they will. I do think that they have a problem though because I think the people leading them now frighten them much more than Israel does.
) Sharon is no peace keeper. His goal has always been to wipe out the Palestinians. That's why him and Bush are pals.
