posted on March 25, 2004 09:12:47 AM new
"Surely any reasonable mind will let Palestinians keep their own land"
You see stupid statements like this periodically and you wonder what is meant by "their own land"?
We all know there was no such thing as "Palestine" until the UN partitioned the desert into the state of Israel and "Palestine" in 1948. The Israelis took their little piece of desert and the Arabs decided to go the military route and lost.
Since that time, it is arguable that the Arabs have done more to prevent the establishment of Palestine than has Israel.
Maybe someone can give us a definition of "their land"?
posted on March 25, 2004 03:28:34 PM new
U.S. Vetoes U.N. Council's Yassin Measure
By CHRIS HAWLEY
Associated Press Writer
UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- The United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution Thursday condemning Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin.
The veto came after Algeria, the resolution's sponsor, rejected a U.S. demand that the measure also condemn violence by Hamas and other militant groups by name.
The resolution "is silent about the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas," U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said before the vote. He called the measure "unbalanced, one-sided."
"Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region ... but events must be considered in their context," Negroponte said.
Critics said the veto condoned Israel's policy of assassinating militant leaders.
The vote, which followed days of debate, was 11 countries in favor, three countries abstaining, and only the United States against.
Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, was killed in a missile strike Monday morning in the Gaza Strip. Israel has warned that all other leaders of the group could be targeted.
Hamas has claimed responsibility for dozens of bombings and shootings of Israelis during 3 1/2 years of violence. Israel says it is targeting the group's leaders to stop such attacks, but critics say killing suspects without arresting or trying them violates international law.
On Wednesday, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva voted 31-2 to condemn Israel for Yassin's death, but the body has no power to punish countries. A resolution by the Security Council would have carried more international weight.
The 11 Security Council members who voted for the measure were: China, Russia, France, The Philippines, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin and Brazil.
Britain, Germany and Romania abstained.
The vetoed resolution condemned Yassin's death and called for a "complete cessation of extrajudicial executions." It also condemned "all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction."
However, it did not mention any militant groups by name - a traditional U.S. demand.
Only five members of the Security Council - the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France - can veto the body's resolutions. Thursday's veto is the United States' 79th and the latest in a long string of vetoes regarding Israel.
The Soviet Union and Russia have cast the most Security Council vetoes over the years, 121. Britain has cast 32, France 18 and China, 5.
As usual the UN fails to do their job in full, lets just blame Isreal but let the real terrorists off the hook...
posted on March 25, 2004 04:18:31 PM new
We should "reach out" to the 11 countries sponsoring the resolution in the hopes that we can create a "dialog" about protecting ourselves from terrorism.
Oh yes!
I guess I must agree with 12pole ” Israel knows how to do it right…” (extreme right that is).
Lets all say it together ‘The Palestinians just need to sit down and talk.’
If you’re on the fascist/racist/anti-certain-Semite_neo-right, with a view to a Project for a New American Century, then don’t bother reading the links; they’re only historical fact.
posted on March 26, 2004 06:11:29 AM new
12pole: You claim to be concerned about terrorists; don’t you know / want to know who they are?
Don’t read the links…ignoramus.
ps. You're the type that complains about Americans that can't speak English. Then learn to speak English: It's 'would have named' or 'would've named' & NOT "would of named". trailer trash!
posted on March 26, 2004 02:44:03 PM new
"No I won't read the links because you've shown many many times here that you are anti-jewish..."
That's the problems with racists like you Bounty. I'd debate or discuss this subject with just about anyone regardless of their political position.
But to discuss it with a confirmed racist is pointless.
You Bounty are pointless. You are ruled by your hate and will suffer no other solution other than that which satisfies your hate.
Anyone that discusses this subject or debates it that thinks there's one "side" or party at fault is 100% ignorant.
So post your crap, and your links. America and most of the world is still free thanks to people like you thankfully having little say in how things are generally run.
But you get zero credibility or respect. It's good to expose nasty little racists like you.
posted on March 27, 2004 12:46:32 PM new
A little bit of positive news taken from the Oakland Tribune today.
Palestinians urge nonviolence
Intellectuals ask that there be no retaliation for Yassin's death
By Mohammed Daraghmeh, Associated Press
RAMALLAH, West Bank --
Sixty prominent Palestinians urged their people Thursday not to retaliate for Israel's killing of the Hamas founder, but instead to transform the 31/2-year-old violent uprising into a peaceful protest for statehood.
A call for restraint came from a second direction Thursday -- relatives of a Palestinian youth caught with a suicide bomber's vest at an Israeli roadblock demanded that militants stop recruiting children.
In the most serious incident since the assassination of Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin on Monday, Israeli forces killed three Palestinians who opened fire on a civilian car and an Israeli outpost at a Jewish settlement in Gaza late Thursday, the military said.
After the shootings, Israeli tanks and bulldozers entered the area late Thursday.
At the United Nations, the United States vetoed a Security Council resolution that would have condemned Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin, because it made no mention of "terrorist atrocities" committed by Hamas.
Despite the appeals for restraint, the Hamas military wing on Thursday issued a rare videotaped statement, threatening retaliation against Israelis in graphic terms, after marking Israeli Prime Minster Ariel Sharon as a target.
The statement pledged "a strong, earthshaking response to make the sons of monkeys and pigs taste a painful death."
In the videotape, given to the Dubai-based Al-Arabiya TV channel, a masked man declared, "We say to the pig Sharon that we will pound your fortresses and make you curse yourself 1,000 times for merely thinking of assassinating our leaders and symbols."
But some Palestinians are questioning whether violent resistance has done them more harm then good. Their economy has been decimated. Israeli checkpoints, closures and other restrictions, which Israel says are necessary to stop attackers, have made their lives miserable.
On Thursday, a group of respected Palestinians put a half-page advertisement in the PLO's Al-Ayyam newspaper calling on Palestinians to lay down their arms and turn to peaceful means of protest toward ending Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The intellectuals who signed the ad -- including peace advocate Sari Nusseibeh, lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi and Abbas Zaki, a leading member of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement -- said revenge attacks over Yassin's assassination would lead to strong Israeli retaliation and further hurt the Palestinian cause.
The group called on the public to rise again in a peaceful, wise Intefadeh (uprising). Some Palestinians doubted the ad would be greeted with a similar call for restraint by Israelis, noting Israel has announced plans to kill all Hamas leaders.
"We had many previous experiences with the Israelis," said Ahmed Radi, 32. "There was a truce with Israel, but Israel has not stopped its aggression."
Israeli troops have engaged Palestinian militants in isolated gunfights since Yassin's killing, but there has been no major escalation in violence.
posted on March 27, 2004 02:11:55 PM new
12pole “Genocide of the Palestinians is the answer... whether people want to believe that or not.”
LindaK “Israel has tried for all these years to have peace.”
Clearly Linda is in denial of Israel’s violent and cruel C20th history.
re: The comment by ebayauctionguy “kill every stinking terrorist”. Is that meant to ‘embrace’ Zionists?
Here is an example of what freedom seeking Palestinians are up against.
Desquirrel “Negotiations mean what they have always meant in the past: dead Israelis.”
And after having pointed out these comments, through canvid13’s one eyed view, because I criticise Israel; I’m the racist.
The case for Israel, with slurs against opposition of, ‘racist’, ‘nazi’, ‘antisemite’ have really worn very thin.
And all the while some here are speaking as though they are scholars of Islam, telling us why that religion is the basis of the problems while ignoring the existence of Jewish or Christian extremists and propagandists.
posted on March 27, 2004 02:22:13 PM new
austbounty - LindaK "Israel has tried for all these years to have peace."
Clearly Linda is in denial of Israel's violent and cruel C20th history.
It must not be so 'clear' after all and your assumption is incorrect. It's just that I don't find taking the fight backwards is going to help accomplish anything. They need to look forward, not backward imo, to find peace in their futures. Or this war will continue to proceed along the path it's been on all these years.
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austbounty - I have a question for you. Something I've wondered about for a long time. Obviously you're free not to answer. But you posts are always so supportive on *anything* people in the ME do....while accusing my country of all sorts of things.
The question is this...I thought one of your posts mentioned that your own children attended either a Catholic or Christian school. Is that incorrect?
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.
On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 68 percent of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!
The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, five Arab countries launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!
From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it?
posted on March 27, 2004 04:30:06 PM new
criminy, I must have been taught all wrong in a parochial CATHOLIC school for 12 loooong years, cuz they taught us that Catholics are Christians.
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on March 27, 2004 04:52:58 PM new
linda, from the passion thread, you say,
"Other's have argued the same thing since time began. That's why I won't 'debate' my faith with anyone. And that's why I accept those who practice other faiths....because I see common ground in all religions and I sure don't have any special 'insight' that I'm the only one who has the 'right' answer. I have chosen my own path, just as many others have."
Why then, are you prying into the affairs of others?
posted on March 27, 2004 04:57:45 PM new
Linda_K “Anyway....if you're so supportive of Islam why do you choose to put your children in a Catholic school rather than a Islamic school?”
I chose to put my kids in such a school because at the time:
I had little faith in the public school nearest me because of Gov. Funding etc.
I didn’t like the ‘look’ of some of the parents who took their kids to that public school. Too many looked like socio-economic failures.
The secular private schools I looked into were more expensive than we could afford. Being that we aren’t a great socio-economic ‘success’.
Catholic schools are assisted by the Church and so I felt it was a resource I could ‘exploit’.
I did not consider a non Christian, or specifically an Islamic School, because I know less of Islam than Christianity.
And anyhow, to have taken children to an Islamic School in USA Au. or UK would probably subject children to persecution in society because of the prejudices which exist ani-certain-Semites in our countries.
And the reason I give support for Islam is not because I follow the faith, but rather to counter the rancid racism which is spewed forth against them…To give some balance.
One doesn’t have to belong to a group to speak up for a group.
Who else spoke forth against 12poles’ comment ““Genocide of the Palestinians is the answer... whether people want to believe that or not.”
In contrast to the reaction to 12’s comment, I feel like all I have to do is mention JEW and some of you guys are like a rabid lynch mob.
So Linda, having read most of my posts, and being that I have never or would ever support or call for the genocide of any race (overtly or covertly), and in light Iofcomments made by people like 12’ and at risk of ostracising yourself from 12;
Who’s the Nazi??????????
Who’s the Nazi appeaser???????
ps.
For those that may be easily confused.
Linda’s question to me was “your own children attendedeither a Catholic or Christian school. Is that incorrect?
To which I responded with ‘No’, as they do go to a Catholic School.
posted on March 27, 2004 05:12:57 PM new
NearTheSea - The reason I used both terms is because in my younger days [that was a million years ago ] a distinction was made. As I grew older the Catholics were more willing to also be called Christian.
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Thank you for your candid reply austbounty. I asked because it appeared to me that you often support the Muslim faith. And yet I thought I'd remembered you saying that your children were in a Catholic school. So since the two didn't make sense to me, I asked to clarify. It's too easy to make assumptions on these threads, imo.
I can identify with your answer because I do the same thing on some subjects....argue them because no one else is/does. And also because, at times, it's easier for me to see two sides of an issue.
posted on March 27, 2004 05:51:34 PM new
Would anybody care to cast stones at12poles’ comment
“Genocide of the Palestinians is the answer... whether people want to believe that or not.”.
It seems that racist comments against Certain-Semites are quite acceptable to most here.
edited to say; The use of the term 'racist' being a gross understatement.
[ edited by austbounty on Mar 27, 2004 06:09 PM ]
posted on March 27, 2004 06:12:34 PM new
My position is very close to the link twelvepole gave us. That's pretty much how I see what's gone down so far.
As far as casting stones....I think we're each responsible for our own words and our own reactions to the posts others make.
“Throughout 1933 and 1934, thousands of Communists, Social Democrats and Jews were arrested in various parts of Germany. There was no secret about these arrests. The German people made no effort to stop Hitler's terrorism. They allowed themselves to be brainwashed by his relentless propaganda and regarded their Fuhrer as making heroic efforts to re-establish order and decency. “
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm
posted on March 27, 2004 06:17:49 PM newThe reason I used both terms is because in my younger days [that was a million years ago ] a distinction was made. As I grew older the Catholics were more willing to also be called Christian.
It twas a million years ago for me too, this last week I had another bday, and my children act like I'm one foot in the grave! LOL!!
But you know your right. Catholics long ago, well, when I was in the Church, you were not just Christian, you were Catholic ..... so I know what your saying
Honestly, my memory is fading with age but I think the word Christian came out more after Vatican II. Thats when the nuns became all 'folksy' with their guitars and stuff Man those were the days!! Still wore uniforms though! All girls Catholic high school ........ but looking back, I think it was good, and a good education for the times.
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on March 28, 2004 01:43:31 PM new
I noticed that you have not commented on the article I posted Austbounty... too much truth about that rabble you are supporting?
I am trying to remember when an Israeli attacked an American...
Oh yeah In 1967... when we were spying on them during the 6 day war...
Tragic mistake, one accepted by both sides...
Why didn't the Arap Palestinians ask Jordan for their country? Why Austbounty?
.
