posted on March 28, 2004 07:22:05 PM new
For the record Bounty I think all peoples in that region should have the right to live in safety and peace.
I think everyone in that region should be able to raise their families and prosper and to do so without it being at gunpoint, or the bomb belt of any other group.
posted on March 29, 2004 01:58:59 AM new
I do agree with you; that would be nice, like heaven on earth.
I will also agree with you canvid13, in that, pointing out someone else’s extreme racism does not make one ‘not a racist’.
If 12 had put forth a suggestion that genocide of Israelites, or any race was the solution, I would still attack him, but you didn’t: Why?
The following paragraph was first written by one Martin Niemöller. I’ve altered it a little for effect.
First 12 came for the reds, but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a red.
Then 12 came for the Illegal immigrants, but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t an illegal immigrant.
Then 12 came for the Gays, but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Gay.
Then 12 came for the Palestinians, but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Palestinian.
Then 12 came for me, but there was nobody left to speak for me.
Personally, I like to argue for the ‘underdog’ in most situations, and I feel that the Palestinians have a weak voice.
I like to think that if I were around in Germany in the 30’s, I am the type that would have spoken for the Jews and others.
I don’t profess to know much about the situation over there and I feel unwilling at this stage to take months of comprehensive study if not at least several weeks (I’m sure), to check into to validity of the claims put forth in the links which 12 and I have made.
I have at least acknowledged somewhere on this site in recent months that the Christian Bible has lead to resentment towards Jews, because of the way Christ’s crucifixion has been represented. I do in a way view this as ‘propaganda’.
But I also have no sympathy for any Jewish argument that the ‘Jewish Biblical Land’ belongs to then because it has been promised, and it seems to me (perhaps mistakenly) that this is what drives most ‘settlers’.
I do see and acknowledge that Palestinians have committed acts of atrocity, but I also see and acknowledge that so have the Jews. I see tick for tack, with Palestinians being the present losers. I do not see the state of Israel as innocent victim, as has been primarily represented, but changing, by the popular media.
I am not willing to accept, at this stage, claims that attacks against Israel, or even USA, Australia, or Spain have been unprovoked.
I don’t have the answer, but throwing BS at each other won’t help for a just and fair resolution.
posted on March 29, 2004 05:37:59 AM new
I haven't commented on this thread because if I told you all what I really think, I'd be crucified. I have enough going on right now. But, I have to respond to 12's comment. . .because you've shown many many times here that you are anti-jewish...
I DON'T support Sharon, I DON'T support Israel, but I am NOT anti-Jewish. Just because someone thinks that Sharon is being an ass, doesn't mean he or she is anti-Jewish. I don't believe for one moment that Sharon wants peace. I think he wants what the UN separated - the Gaza strip. Wars have been started over land for centuries. As far as I know, no country, no person and no religion owns the "land". There will never be peace in the Middle East. They've been fighting since time began and what makes Sharon or Bush or anyone else think it will ever be otherwise. Our involvement in supporting Israel is what has brought terror upon the people of this country. Let them fight it out, if that's what they want to do. But, the US needs to stay the hell out of it. Don't we have enough problems of our own? And now the new Hamas leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, is lumping every single American together. We're all bad because of what our government does or doesn't do.
I don't support the Palestinians either. Sending children to do terrorist acts is deplorable and should be condemned.
Personally, I more than a little sick of the whole situation which has been going on for as long as I can remember. (we'll leave you to guess how long that is)
posted on March 29, 2004 06:54:14 AM new
"I would still attack him, but you didn’t: Why? "
There is a difference between a racist and a fool.
I stopped reading foolish people's posts a long time ago.
I don't give them the attention they crave, and there are people that will say outrageous things just to get attention.
Same for demagogues.
That being said I also will clarify my own position.
I do not support Mr. Sharon myself. However as other's have said, and just about every human being on the planet would agree, sending children with bombs strapped to them is utterly insane.
The fact that these so called leaders do not send their own children to do such, shows the utter hypocrisy and lack of human respect they have.
If you or anyone wants to support that it's your choice; but it's also mine to condemn you for such evil.
Because when you support these people you are condemning other innocent children to death.
And that's just plain wrong. It's not war. It's not accidental. It's the purposeful targetting of children and innocents.
And while Israel has unfortunately killed innocents in its act of defending its borders I don't think anyone can point to any act of it targetting innocents or children.
If that is what makes you consider the Palenstinian leadership "underdogs" I feel very sorry for you.
War is never pretty and never right. The fact that any group has to resort to it shows a huge failure for all involved.
How could that statement be directed at me? I clearly stated that I don't support Palestine either or the fact that they strap bombs onto children. If it was directed at me, canvid13 needs to go back and re-read what I wrote. I think both sides are acting the fools.
A mistake? Oh, no, the illusion is shattered. Here I thought you were perfect. Thanks for clarifying that! I had to go back and re-read what I wrote just to make sure I wrote what I thought I did. [grin]
posted on March 30, 2004 04:26:56 AM new
Legally, in Australia at least, children have limited legal capacity; meaning one can’t always enforce a contract made with a child. I assume this is because they aren’t considered to have the intellectual maturity to make a sensible decision in all cases when making a decision.
Similarly, in most if not almost all cases, I don’t think that a child suicide bomber has the capacity to make the decision of performing such an act on their own. I believe that others have probably manipulated these children and this is abhorrent
The act of killing innocent Israelis is certainly abhorrent, but let us also not fail to see the similarities to the killing of innocents by our military in Iraq, or the killing of innocent Palestinians.
I don’t have any real solution and in fact just as Cheryl, I have often thrown my hands up and thought;
‘Let them wipe each other out, just leave me and my kids out of it.’
But being a ‘leftie’ I feel a sense of concern and responsibility for my fellow man, as I’m sure does Cheryl
What’s the answer?…who knows.
Cutting out the BS would be a start; but that just ain’t gona happen.
Although I am against capital punishment, because of the risk of error in judging; I would be prepared to throw caution into the wind and support the state execution of all terrorist, assassins, or killers of innocents (on all sides), and their primary accomplices (military, political, corporate, religious, or otherwise).
Why stop at Arabs?
For example; Henry Kissinger (The Butcher of Cambodia) is wanted by others too.
I would even stand aside at the execution of people like 12pole, if it could be demonstrated that his call or provocation for genocide were actually genuine, and not just blurted out to infuriate.
Perhaps that’s the answer, kill all people who call for genocide.
Here’s a simple and perhaps a good start.
Isn’t there a law in America to control extremists that call people to commit genocide or even just to kill one person.
Surely it’s at least an impressionable offence.
posted on March 30, 2004 05:15:09 AM newOh and austbounty we have a thing here called freedom of speech
Don't I know it! I recently had an incident involving a person with whom I have a long-standing feud. I've gone on with my life paying him no attention, however the same cannot be said about him. He is constantly threatening my life and the last comment was that he's putting a hit out on me. Went to the police and lo and behold - I can't do a damned thing until he acts on it. What a load of crap. What caused the feud? He was scamming Medicaid/Medicare by forging documents to meet his spend-down and I turned his butt in and I'm not sorry I did.
Austie - I do have a concern for my fellow man, but there comes a point where if they don't care about themselves I give up on them. Let them go at it once and for all. It's gone way beyond reason and I wonder if they even remember when and why it ever began.
posted on March 30, 2004 07:01:15 AM new
"The act of killing innocent Israelis is certainly abhorrent, but let us also not fail to see the similarities to the killing of innocents by our military in Iraq, or the killing of innocent Palestinians. "
Except that you forget what even a simpleton knows: All dead bodies are not the same.
If it is 1948 and an Arab regiment invades a kibbutz and kills 1000 Israelis, it's not the same as the counter attack that destroys that regiment.
If a Palestinian mob is throwing rocks and/or firing on an Israeli patrol and knocks off a trooper or 2, it's not the same as firing into the mob and taking out the rioters.
And even more obvious, knocking off a terrorist leader, whether blind, crippled or crazy, his lieutenants and even his cat is not the same as blowing up a tourist bus.
posted on April 1, 2004 02:58:00 AM new
Oh yes desquirrel, as you say, even a simpleton knows that all dead bodies are not the same.
For example:
The people once killed by the ‘surgical strike’ in Hiroshima, were not American or Jewish, and that’s all that matters.]
posted on April 1, 2004 04:35:41 AM new
Please look up "surgical strike" and then try using it correctly... that bomb drop was not even close to being meant as "surgical strike"
...and in all probablility saved 1 million Allies lives... well worth it.
posted on April 1, 2004 09:07:49 AM new
I absolutely could not care less about Hiroshima OR Nagasaki
AND given:
That it prevented 2 million US casualties and double or triple that for the Japanese.
and
The fact that the Japanese military placed the Emperor under house arrest and attempted to prevent the capitulation tape from being broadcast,
posted on April 4, 2004 10:50:52 AM new
Shouting Disrupts Israeli Cabinet Meeting
Apr 4, 9:04 AM (ET)
By RAVI NESSMAN
JERUSALEM (AP) - A weekly Israeli Cabinet meeting turned into a shouting match Sunday between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and hard-line ministers who oppose his plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank, government officials said.
Sharon has said his "disengagement plan" is intended to separate Israelis from Palestinians after more than three years of fighting and reduce friction between the two peoples in the absence of any progress in peace efforts.
The plan has been gaining domestic support and Sharon plans to travel to Washington next week to secure the endorsement of President Bush. But some among Sharon's hard-line coalition strongly oppose any withdrawal and have threatened to pull out of the government.
During the weekly Cabinet meeting Sunday, the hard-liners, led by Tourism Minister Benny Elon, demanded Sharon immediately bring his plan to a Cabinet vote so they could decide whether to pull out of the coalition, according to officials in the meeting.
An angry Sharon said the details of the plan had not been finalized, and if he brought it to the ministers they would leak it to the press, the officials said.
