posted on April 1, 2004 03:54:25 PM newThe free exercise clause clearly separates church and state.
No need for me to check anything. You and I have had this same discussion many times. My position is that it means there will be no 'one' religion....not that there is to be no religion at all.
And that's why these cases almost always end up in the USSC...for them to make their 'political' decisions.....based on how the current social wind is blowing...or if they're conservative or liberal in their opinions.
There's always been disagreement about what our founding Fathers REALLY meant.
posted on April 1, 2004 03:58:10 PM new
As I have said before, the founders view on god are quite different than our modern fundementalist christian pagans. But expressing a belief in a god is not an exclusive christian doctrine. If this were a christian nation they would have mentioned Jesus in all the Constitutions etc., but they didn't.
It is a cruel lie and trick that Pat Robertson and others play on those who lack critical thinking skills and haven't read substansive histories when he proclaims this a "christian" nation.
Most of the founders when pressed were Deists, which today would be almost equal to an atheist - certainly not christian. And that would include presidents.
posted on April 1, 2004 04:02:14 PM newI remember asking my dad when I was younger (since he always belonged to the Elks, Shriners all those) if he was a Mason... he looked at me in HORROR and said 'I am Catholic God dammit!'
Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few catholic masons...belonging to the masonic fraternity hasn't been proscribed by the church in a long time...I know quite a few. There are lots of catholics who think it's still a no-no however. The fraternity has never prevented catholics from joining. I have nieces and nephews in De Molay and Job's Daughters as we speak.
The church's distain for Masonry goes back to the once accepted belief that the masons were inspired by the crusade era Knights Templar, who were originally sanctioned by the church, but later persecuted and condemned as witches when they became too wealthy and influential. Some historians believe that Templars fleeing to Scotland from France and Spain may have been the originators of Freemasonry...it's notable that this is a theory that mainstream masonry denies.
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posted on April 1, 2004 04:06:59 PM newBut expressing a belief in a god is not an exclusive christian doctrine.
I've never said it was. But they all had a belief in God....and what other God's are you aware of that history shows our past Presidents prayed to????
Please inform me of who, other than the Christian God it was they were praying to???
Lieberman, a Jew, prays to God. Does he pray to a different God than kerry, either of the clinton's or Carter did?
I've never read they do.
A atheist doesn't believe there is a God, reamond......and they did believe in God.
Re-elect President Bush!!
posted on April 1, 2004 04:07:15 PM new
Yeah, actually the Masons are interesting uh, group... was listening to this guy, shoot, forgot his name... author... I could probably google it but he wrote a book about all this secret society they were, and treasures buried all around the world, including N. America.
REAMOND?! I've got a book here somewhere written by our former President Carter, about his being 'born again' the whole book is about living a spiritual life with Christ.. I have it somewhere....
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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 1, 2004 04:08:56 PM newMy position is that it means there will be no 'one' religion....not that there is to be no religion at all.
We may agree on these positions. The clasue doesn't say there will be no religion at all, it in fact guarantees no government interference in your religious beliefs. However, where you and others seem to be in disagreement of 200 years of history is that the government shall not promote or favor any religion.
Removing the 10 commandments from government buildings is not preventing free exercise. Yoy can put the commandments on private property or at your church, but you can not use the government to promote your religion.
It is not only the correct interpretation of the clause it is the smart interpretetaion of the clause for a free society.
Where christians got the idea that our government buildings are display rooms for their religious dogma is beyond me -- and the Supreme Court.
posted on April 1, 2004 04:19:52 PM newRemoving the 10 commandments from government buildings is not preventing free exercise. Yoy can put the commandments on private property or at your church, but you can not use the government to promote your religion. Those are decisions the USSC have made....many disagree with the notion this doesn't remove their right to freely practice their religious beliefs.
And some have worked to remove these religious symbols from private property too.
It is not only the correct interpretation of the clause it is the smart interpretetaion of the clause for a free society. I don't agree. When Christian nativity scenes are being removed, but those of other faiths are allowed to remain it is further proof that there is prejudice there....against Christians and their long honored place in society. You just think it's correct because you agree with the decisions. Many don't.
Where christians got the idea that our government buildings are display rooms for their religious dogma is beyond me -- and the Supreme Court. Many things, such as respecting that those who have a faith they practice, appear to be beyond your understanding....you only mock them.
And the USSC building itself have Moses on the exterior of one of it's wings. And inside there are other religious depictions of religion. Again, we've discussed all this before.
That's, in part, why this next USSC ruling about taking Under God out of the pledge will be interesting, especially considering they open their own Court each session with a prayer to God.
posted on April 1, 2004 04:25:51 PM new
Reamond, I can't believe you said that about Graham, but ok....
I found the book.. then looked it up on Amazon:
Sources of Strength : Meditations on Scripture for a Living Faith by Jimmy Carter
From Library Journal
This sequel to Living Faith (LJ 10/15/96) is a collection of 52 brief Bible lessons ne for each week of the year ritten by former president Jimmy Carter. All were used in adult Sunday school classes he taught himself. Carter's lessons are open-minded and socially progressive while remaining unapologetically conservative and Christian theologically. Each three- to four-page lesson is based on a passage of Scripture. Carter is quite knowledgeable about biblical times and can bring together historical information and personal experience very effectively. The lessons are grouped in nine categories, such as "What We Believe" and "Christians in the World," but each lesson stands well on its own. A reasonable addition to inspirational literature as well as an interesting insight into this cerely Christian former presidentcommended for public libraries
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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 1, 2004 04:26:41 PM new
[i]I've never said it was. But they all had a belief in God....and what other God's are you aware of that history shows our past Presidents prayed to????
Please inform me of who, other than the Christian God it was they were praying to???[/i]
Jefferson believed as a Deist and never accepted baptism or membership to the church he attended. He would never sign the "book".
The Deist god most certainly is not the god of christians.
All of the documents that mention god but not Jesus can not be considered christian references.
History shows that some of our past Presidents prayed to a different god than some now do because their beliefs were different and their views of god were different.
From Jefferson's autobiography:
[b]The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. Where the preamble declares,
that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion,
an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word " Jesus Christ," so that it
should read, " a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of
our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that
they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the
Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every
denomination.[/b]
posted on April 1, 2004 04:45:21 PM new
Jefferson believed as a Deist and never accepted baptism or membership to the church he attended. He would never sign the "book".
Ya know, my grandpa was exactly like that. They both came over from Ireland too, he would take my grandmother to Mass every Sunday and Holy day, but would NEVER become a Catholic.
(a priest actually married them, NOT in the Church, but in the rectory, so they said in 1914)
When he died, since he was seen every Sun. at Mass, they gave him a full Catholic funeral. wow. He did tell us kids that he did believe in God, but he'd be damned if he'd be baptized Catholic. Whew, glad my grandmother never heard that
true story!
Linda, slap me now ok?
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 1, 2004 04:46:08 PM new
reamond - Want to answer my question if they prayed to a different God?
Even Jefferson....so he rebelled and wouldn't sign the book....big deal....he was attending Church. Was it to worship satin? Witches? Etc?
When I speak of Christians...I'm speaking to our past Presidents only. After 9-11 is when the polls were taken about how many profess to be Christians.
The Jews believe in the same BIBLE that you mock...so do the Catholics if you put them in a catagory other than Christian. Yes, there is a difference in all the Christian faiths....to some degree....but not on believing in God. The SAME GOD that even the Jews believe in.
Has Jefferson been quoted as saying he honored a different God by attending his Church?
posted on April 1, 2004 04:47:21 PM new
Again, as we have seen before, just because there is a proclamation that someone is a christain does not mean they are in fact a christian in their actual beliefs.
Many will accept some hodge podge doctrine of christianity that a christian is someone who believes in Jesus and does "good" things.
However, if you believe in the bible, whether literal or not, you must fist accept the christian orthodoxy of the nature of god. 99% of christians can not get past the nature of god without somehow offering their own definition of the nature of god.
Not being christian or being a modern christian pagan does not mean you are bad or evil. It just means you are professing a faith that you really don't comprehend.
My disdain is not with the "believer" but rather with his/her ignorance of the meaning of the labels they use to describe their beliefs.
It would be like if I stood up and said I am a Republican, and then you asked me if I believed in lower taxes and I said no, and I then said I am pro-choice, and said I believe in bigger government. In fact every thing I believe is against Republican principles - would I be a republican ? Well if you wanted my vote you would say I was, but in truth I would not be one.
posted on April 1, 2004 04:52:26 PM new
NearTheSea - I would never slap you, even if I could through our monitors.
I agree there are many who believe in God that don't practice any Church's way of doing it or find attending Church a requirement to do so. Was I not clear on that before in my posts?
posted on April 1, 2004 04:59:39 PM new
Not being christian or being a modern christian pagan does not mean you are bad or evil. It just means you are professing a faith that you really don't comprehend.
Well, thanks for saying I'm not evil
(OH! then Bush is not evil any longer??)
About the faith comprehension thing. I believe what I believe. I don't think anyone or thing could sway me from it.
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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 1, 2004 05:00:18 PM new
I understand what you're saying reamond.....just like kerry. Goes to Catholic church each Sunday and supports abortions on demands, which is against his Catholic teachings. His stand has been reported in the news. But since we aren't the ones who will 'make the call' on who's Christian in God's eyes, that's between him, his Church and his Christian God.
----
All of the documents that mention god but not Jesus can not be considered christian references.
I don't agree. For those who believe in the Trinity...they are one...Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
posted on April 1, 2004 05:02:31 PM new
If you read below Jefferson's idea on what a christian is is far different than modern fundementalist views and in fact could not be christian at all. What Jefferson says in effect is that he is a follower of the moral philosophy of Jesus and in fact says that if he was a god or not is irrelevant.
This Deist view was typical of the times. Jefferson was clearly not a christian and he was a founding father and president.
JEFFERSON TO TO DOCTOR BENJAMIN RUSH.
WASHINGTON, April 21, 1803.
I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be;
sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to
himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other. At
the short interval since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract
my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation...
The question of his being a member of the Godhead, or in direct communication
with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others, is
foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic
merits of his doctrines.
posted on April 1, 2004 05:24:13 PM new
He and Dr Rush must have argued on Christianity
Benjamin Rush (1744-1813) a signer of the Declaration of Independence
On March 28, 1787 when Dr. Benjamin Rush proposed his plan for public education in America he wrote:
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write - - - (and a)bove all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education - -"8
In another educational proposal he wrote:
"It will be necessary to connect all these (academic) branches of education with regular instruction in the Christian religion."9
Benjamin Rush was a founder of the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and served as its president.10
His activities in the Christian faith included being the founder and vice-president of the Philadelphia Bible Society,11 which was America's first Bible Society.12 He also helped found "The First Day Society" which was the beginning of Sunday Schools across America.13 Francis Scott Key, the author of The Star Spangled Banner later became the Vice-President for the American Sunday School Union.
In 1791 Dr. Rush wrote a lengthy pamplet entitled 'A Defense of the Use of the Bible as a Schoolbook'.
oops gotta go for awhile
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 1, 2004 05:28:08 PM new
Below again Jefferson claim he is a "christian" by his acceptance of the ethics of Jesus but rejecting the godhood of Jesus.
I, too, have made a wee-little book
from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus ; it is a
paradigma of His doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and
arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or
subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen ; it
is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple
of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me
infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw
all their characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw. They
have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of
man, of which the great Reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews,
were He to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.
posted on April 1, 2004 05:35:09 PM newJust as in many things there is disagreement on what the 'truth' is/was.
Well no. Surely you aren't proposing that there is ANY christian denomination today that denies the divinity of Jesus.
But like I said, what the founding fathers knew as christianity and what it is considered today is vastly different.
Most were Deists and many denied the divinity of Jesus. The references to Platonism is also an attack on the trinity.
Being christian to the founding fathers meant an ethical code that was supplied by the life and example of Jesus, and a belief in a single god. They would not pass muster today as christians.
And if memory serves me correctly, Jesus never said he was god. That is what Jefferson is referring to also about Platonists.
posted on April 1, 2004 05:36:24 PM new
[i]it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, [b]who call me
infidel[/b] and themselves Christians.
reamond....have you not, in past posts, called yourself/identified yourself as being an atheist? Now you're a Christian? Which is it please?
posted on April 1, 2004 05:48:17 PM new
Jefferson also goes on to say that he did no believe in, nor does the bible support ---
The immaculate conception of Jesus
His deification
the creation of
the world by Him
His miraculous powers
His resurrection and visible
ascension
His corporeal presence in the Eucharist
the Trinity
original sin,
atonement
regeneration
election
orders of Hierarchy, etc.,
TO WILLIAM SHORT.
MONTICELLO, October 31, 1819.
The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this
benevolent Moralist (Jesus), and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture,which has resulted from artificial systems, E. g. The immaculate conception of Jesus, His deification, the creation of
the world by Him, His miraculous powers, His resurrection and visible
ascension, His corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin,
atonement, regeneration, election, orders of Hierarchy, etc., invented by ultra-Christian
sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by Him, is a most desirable
object, and one to which Priestley has successfully devoted his labors and
learning.
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