posted on April 21, 2004 04:23:58 PM new
So he has released SOME of his military records.
Conviently missing are the MEDICAL RECORDS showing treatment (if any) he received to earn the hearts.
So he flip flops again. Incomplete military records are another cop out from Kerry.
'We have dispatched Dr. David Kay...to search for the bio-warfare agents we believe hidden in Senator Kerry's forehead. If Senator Kerry has used botox as part of a wrinkle enrichment program, he is in violation of UN Resolution 752. Upon receiving Dr. Kay's report, the weapons of mass destruction that Senator Kerry so adamantly insists do not exist...may well be above his very nose.'" --Dick Cheney when asked whether John Kerry has had Botox treaments
posted on April 21, 2004 04:54:07 PM new
Kerry released his records quickly and they look like records to be proud of.
Isnt it a bit silly to focus on actual blood or stitches from over 30 years ago when time would be better spent focusing on the current issues that he is running on?
Or is that the only thing that you find important?
posted on April 21, 2004 04:59:16 PM new "The purple heart is the most commonly awarded commendation in the military, they are given out by the handful. So plentiful that they are considered a joke by those who have them and it doesn't mean a thing. All it proves is that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until you have actual knowledge & experience in military life your opinions are only useful as fertilizer"
Bear, Since you pointed out in the quote above that purple hearts are considered a joke, I'm surprised that you feel this purple heart is now so noteworthy. When you consider the more significant medals awarded to John Kerry don't you feel that this is really a trifling and petty concern? As you also said, "Hearts are bought & sold like trading cards at flea markets. In fact at this monent 100 are for sale on ebay."
posted on April 21, 2004 05:02:26 PM new
Kerry Highly Praised in Military Records
WASHINGTON - Records of John Kerry (news - web sites)'s Vietnam War service released Wednesday show a highly praised naval officer who volunteered for a dangerous assignment and at one point was "unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action."
With conservative critics questioning his service, the Democratic presidential candidate posted more than 120 pages of military records on his campaign Web site. Several describe him as a gutsy commander and detail some of the actions that won him three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star.
Kerry's most harrowing experience came during the nearly five months when he commanded a swiftboat along Vietnam's Mekong Delta. The future Massachusetts senator was commended for gallantry, heroism and valor during the tour, which was cut short when Kerry was wounded three times and sent back to the United States.
"He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta," wrote Lt. Cmdr. George Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "Involved in several enemy initiated fire fights, including an ambush during the Christmas truce, he effectively suppressed enemy fire and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action."
Kerry's records show that throughout his four years of active duty, superiors gave him glowing evaluations, citing his maturity, intelligence and immaculate appearance. He was recommended for early promotion, and when he left the Navy in 1970 to run for Congress, his commanding officer said it was the Navy's loss.
The lowest marks Kerry earned were the equivalent of average in military bearing, reliability and initiative. But narrative comments from his commanding officers said he was diplomatic, charismatic, decisive and well-liked by his men.
Some critics have questioned whether Kerry's injuries were severe enough to warrant reassignment to the United States. His records briefly describe shrapnel wounds to his arm and thigh for the first two Purple Hearts, but they don't detail the severity of the wounds.
According to a naval instruction document provided by Kerry's campaign, anyone serving in Vietnam who was wounded three times, regardless of the nature of the wound or treatment required, "will not be ordered to service in Vietnam and contiguous waters."
On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's and two other boats came under heavy fire from the riverbanks. Kerry ordered his units to turn into the ambush and sent men ashore to charge the enemy. According to the records, an enemy soldier holding a loaded rocket launcher sprang up within 10 feet of Kerry's boat and fled. Kerry leapt ashore, chased and killed the man.
Kerry and his men chased or killed all enemy soldiers in the area, captured enemy weapons and then returned to the boat only to come under fire from the opposite bank as they began to pull away. Kerry again beached his boat and led a party ashore to pursue the enemy, and they successfully silenced the shooting. Later, with the boats again under fire, Kerry initiated a heavy response that killed 10 Viet Cong and wounded another with no casualties to his own men.
He won the Silver Star "for gallantry and intrepidity in action" that day. Two weeks later, another fire fight led to a Bronze Star for heroic achievement and the third Purple Heart that would result in his reassignment out of Vietnam.
Kerry was commanding one of five boats on patrol on March 13, 1969, when two mines detonated almost simultaneously one beneath another boat and one near Kerry's craft. Shrapnel hit Kerry's buttocks, and his right arm was bleeding from contusions, but he rescued a boatmate who had been thrown overboard by the blast and was under sniper fire from both banks. Kerry then directed his crew to return to the other damaged craft and tow it to safety.
In April 1969, Kerry was sent stateside to the Military Sea Transportation Service, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, in Brooklyn, N.Y. On Nov. 21, 1969, Kerry requested that he be released from his commitment to serve actively until August 1970 so he could run for Congress.
He was promoted to full lieutenant on Jan. 1, 1970, and soon after was discharged from active duty and became a reservist.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on April 21, 2004 05:04:42 PM new
Isnt it a bit silly to focus on actual blood or stitches from over 30 years ago when time would be better spent focusing on the current issues that he is running on? Or is that the only thing that you find important?
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Ok I'll agree its silly, if you'll agree its also silly to question President Bushs Reserve time. All I've heard here is that he either 'had a rich old man to get him in the guard' or 'That he was AWOL', I'm sure there is more, but I don't read all the threads.
Is this the only thing you find important?
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 21, 2004 05:05:16 PM new
Am I the only person that is finding it laughable that Bear in one breath praises our military and in the other questions it's integrity in the awarding of the third Purple Heart? You are going to have to make up your mind here Bear - Kerry didn't award the medal to himself.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on April 21, 2004 05:12:40 PM new
All of you are buying into the Kerry is a hero BS.
He stands on his hearts, that is how he escaped combat. All he needs to do is release the medical records for treatment that earned (sic) him the hearts to justify the medals.
Nothing else matters.
I still bear the scars that earned me my hearts. Where are Kerry's scars.
'We have dispatched Dr. David Kay...to search for the bio-warfare agents we believe hidden in Senator Kerry's forehead. If Senator Kerry has used botox as part of a wrinkle enrichment program, he is in violation of UN Resolution 752. Upon receiving Dr. Kay's report, the weapons of mass destruction that Senator Kerry so adamantly insists do not exist...may well be above his very nose.'" --Dick Cheney when asked whether John Kerry has had Botox treaments
posted on April 21, 2004 05:18:58 PM new
I'm not sure who you are addressing, NTS. But since you quoted what I had written I will say that I don't think I've ever discussed President Bush's military records here.
I just mentioned that Kerry's records look like something to be proud of. I think it's more important to focus on current issues but to each their own.
All of you are buying into the Kerry is a hero BS.
What's with all the hero stuff with some of you guys? Do you actually think that's all we judge a leader on? Sheesh!
posted on April 21, 2004 05:25:37 PM new
Sorry kiara, yes, I quoted you. Only because its ironic that many (not all ) had a field day with Bushs time in the Guard. And when you said that we should concentrate on currrent issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree.
What are John Kerrys issues anyway? I really haven't heard much, only that he IS GOING TO CREATE? 10 million? (I think I got the 10 mil figure wrong, but it was a large number) new jobs. I have not read HOW, I'd like to know though.
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 21, 2004 05:31:39 PM new"Sorry kiara, yes, I quoted you. Only because its ironic that many (not all ) had a field day with Bushs time in the Guard. And when you said that we should concentrate on currrent issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree."
These medals were awarded over 30 years ago.
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 21, 2004 05:32 PM ]
posted on April 21, 2004 05:47:03 PM new
Kerry's issues were on the main page of his website last time I looked. He talked about Iraq, the economy, health care and the environment.... probably other things also.
I wonder how many people just vote for one candidate without even bothering to know or learn more about the others.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:01:37 PM newAnd when you said that we should concentrate on current issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree.
Talk about a hypocrite.
Who was on the President Bush bashing bandwagon, calling him AWOL & a deserter. Could it have been Hanoi Helen among others?
Now she wants to forger what happened 30 years ago. It would be laughable, if it wasn't so sad.
'We have dispatched Dr. David Kay...to search for the bio-warfare agents we believe hidden in Senator Kerry's forehead. If Senator Kerry has used botox as part of a wrinkle enrichment program, he is in violation of UN Resolution 752. Upon receiving Dr. Kay's report, the weapons of mass destruction that Senator Kerry so adamantly insists do not exist...may well be above his very nose.'" --Dick Cheney when asked whether John Kerry has had Botox treaments
Nearthesea said, "Sorry kiara, yes, I quoted you. Only because its ironic that many (not all ) had a field day with Bushs time in the Guard. And when you said that we should concentrate on currrent issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree."
I replied, "Kerry's medals were awarded over 30 years ago" ---with the inference that if we can discuss such trivial events in Kerry's military record, why can't we discuss major difficulties in Bush's record.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:18:10 PM new
"Sorry kiara, yes, I quoted you. Only because its ironic that many (not all ) had a field day with Bushs time in the Guard. And when you said that we should concentrate on currrent issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree."
These medals were awarded over 30 years ago.
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 21, 2004 05:32 PM ]
________________________________________
Ok, I read, you quoted me, quoting kiara, and then said Those medals were awarded over 30 years ago
I do not understand your post Helen. And NO, its not my reading comprehension either.
Was your point in that post that is was OVER 30 Years ago instead of 'just 30 years ago' WHAT??
You told Bear to read, so we're all reading, and I don't understand your post, sorry
_________________________________
Kiara. I have read his issues, I just don't see a whole lot there that isn't the claim of all of other Dem and some Rep. candidates. But yes I do read them all. And I see his commercial ads on TV also. And Bushs. They get old after awhile
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on April 21, 2004 06:29:36 PM new
Nearthesea,
I should have made my comment clearer. When it was suggested that we should not talk about the Bush AWOL issue because it happened thirty years ago. I meant to point out that the topic under discussion, Kerry's purple hearts, were awarded over 30 years ago also.
In other words both military records covered a period of time about years ago. If we can discuss the military record of one then why not the other.
Hope that's clear now.
Helen
I certainly agree however, that a discussion of the issues is more important.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:33:47 PM newI am so tempted to quote NearTheSea quoting Helen quoting Bear quoting NearTheSea quoting kiara.
Dont do it , its going to put me to sleep.
I just do not understand the fixation about Kerry's purple hearts. The man won the silver star for bravery in combat. If thats not putting your azz on the line I just don't know what is.
It took a lot of guts to do what he did at the time and no one can deny that.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:48:18 PM new
Okay, trai..... I don't want anyone to fall asleep yet.
I think that the worry for some is that Kerry's records stand up better than Bush's do.
I agree about the ads, NTS and it's a bit silly for them to just bash each other. They are releasing some new ones and it's said that Bush's will remain negative about Kerry but Kerry will take a more positive direction and concentrate on the issues.
In one ad, Kerry details his priorities: "First, we will keep this country safe and secure. Second, I'll put an end to tax incentives that encourage American companies to ship jobs overseas. And third, we'll invest in education and health care."
The other spot has Kerry laying out his proposal "to change the situation in Iraq," where 100 Americans have died in combat in April, the deadliest month since the U.S.-led invasion a year ago. The ad comes amid decisions by Spain and Honduras to withdraw their troops from Iraq.
"I would immediately reach out to the international community in sharing the burden, the risk, because they also have a stake in the outcome of what is happening in Iraq," Kerry says in the ad. "The American taxpayer is paying now almost $200 billion and who knows how many more billions, and we're paying the highest price in the loss of lives of our young soldiers, almost alone."
posted on April 21, 2004 06:51:22 PM new
NTS, when I tried writing it out about who quoted who I got all mixed up so I couldn't do it if I tried. Besides, trai will fall asleep.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:53:11 PM new
I believe how kerry's commanding officer sees his so called 'injury' is funny:
from today's Washington Times:
But it's not clear whether the records that the Kerry campaign is posting on its Web site will answer all the questions that have surfaced about the first of his three Purple Hearts earned during his four months of fighting.
Although none of the injuries that Mr. Kerry sustained during his tenure in Vietnam caused him to miss more than a couple of days of service, his first Purple Heart has come under special scrutiny.
Mr. Kerry's commanding officer in Vietnam, Grant Hibbard, recently questioned the severity of the wound that led to Mr. Kerry's Purple Heart, saying the injury was so minor that it could have resulted from a fingernail scratch and questioning whether Mr. Kerry's crew had even come under enemy fire that day.
posted on April 21, 2004 06:57:57 PM new
Something really stinks about Kerry recommending himself for a Purple Heart, especially when when no medical treatment was required.
posted on April 21, 2004 07:16:49 PM new
Makes no differance how deep the wound was. As long as you are in a combat zone and you get injured you are up for a purple heart.
Some may seem trival to some, but I will not deny any soldier the medal no matter what as it could have been worse.
The bottom line is that he was there as so many others. Im sure that a great many purple hearts were handed out to many in that theater.
Most of this I find pretty petty and grasping at straws.If this was the other way around I would say the same thing for Bush.
) had a field day with Bushs time in the Guard. And when you said that we should concentrate on currrent issues, not something that happened 30 years ago, I agree.
)
