posted on May 10, 2004 06:47:36 PM new
The prison torture is only the tip of the iceburg of what's been going on in Iraq.
Troops 'shot dead Iraqi civilians'
British forces in Iraq have shot and killed civilians, including an eight-year-old girl, in situations in which they were under no apparent threat, a report alleges.
The Amnesty International report said "many" cases of killings of civilians by UK troops have not been investigated. Inquiries which have been launched by the Royal Military Police have been "secretive", with families given little or no information about their progress.
Amnesty called for a civilian-led investigation into all killings by British forces, with findings made public.
The report was compiled following visits to UK-administered southern Iraq in February and March by delegates from the human rights organisation, who interviewed families, eye-witnesses, Iraqi police officers and officials of the Coalition Provisional Authority.
Amnesty said it was unable to estimate the total number of deaths which could be attributed to British personnel.
The report also highlighted killings of former members of Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime by vigilante groups, who have also targeted alcohol sellers, shops selling supposedly immoral music and videos and members of the Christian minority.
No prosecutions have been brought in such cases and some Iraqi police officers have suggested that they regard the killing of former Baathists as justified, said the report, entitled Killings of Civilians in Basra and al-Amara.
Amnesty's UK director, Kate Allen, said: "We are told in the UK that southern Iraq is comparatively safe and secure. Yet Iraqis on the ground have painted a very different picture.
"People live in fear of armed groups who can strike with seeming impunity.
"Killings by UK forces, in situations where they should not be using lethal force, are examined in secrecy and behind closed doors."
Dadofstick boy your impression of me is absolutely wrong. I'll let my words that I have posted for the last few years stand for what I believe.
I see that you were quick to join nearthesea and linda in their tacky little insult session. That in itself tells me all that I want to know about you.
posted on May 10, 2004 08:18:12 PM new
Helen, Stop already! You 'act' like everyone's picking on you or something
and no one is.... you do as much 'picking on' as anyone!
But Dad has a point.... your c/p articles, links etc are pretty far left as one could get.
But the WHOLE thing here is it DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER YOUR A DEM. OR A REP. We are one UNITED States. Affliations aside, you gotta admit, that website is socialist (they admit that there) communistic, and God only knows what else.
If you truley believe in what this country is all about, Democrat, Republican Independent, we are in this thing together.
Thank you, my lecture is over, please take a number for private meetings, if you have more questions, in my office....God Bless you and God Bless America
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
posted on May 10, 2004 08:53:01 PM new
To be fair, the majority of Helen's links are from reputable news sources. The only reason that some of you think they are 'pretty far left' is because the article may not agree with your 'pretty far right' view.
Why is it that some of you can't respect us for posting our views on issues? We're not telling you how to post.
posted on May 10, 2004 08:57:59 PM new
Oh kiara - There you go again....'the only reason'.....you don't know MY reasons...and you don't ask...you continue to do what you call others to the carpet for doing.
Anyone who is interested in politics....knows where the opposition stands on the issues.
When a person takes a further left position than that....it speaks for itself.
posted on May 10, 2004 09:11:05 PM new
helen - Again you want to know what I think? I always get such a kick out of you. One thread saying you don't care what I think...what my opinions are....then the next asking what I think.
I was speaking about any of the democratic party's positions.....on most I make a personal judgement that the articles you post go much further left than that of the dem party.
One example was when you c&p'd a supporting link to an article that was originally posted on the MoscowTimes site. remember that? I'd say those views would be considered further left than most democrats.
posted on May 10, 2004 09:11:51 PM newThe President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.
– Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918
Linda, please tell me why Teddy Roosevelt can say those words in 1918 and why we are not allowed to believe or say those words 86 years later, in 2004? What has changed? Why are you accusing some of us of being anti-American because we don't agree with you or Bush?
I've asked you questions on many an occasion but you always run away and hide after you dig a hole for yourself and you never answer.
I've tried to be nice to you and I've even apologized to you on occasion but all I get from you is constant sneering and ridicule, just because I don't support your views. Isn't this all a bit silly?
posted on May 10, 2004 09:27:20 PM newLinda, please tell me why Teddy Roosevelt can say those words in 1918 and why we are not allowed to believe or say those words 86 years later, in 2004?
I think you might want to read ALL of his quotes.....you keep posting just that one...doesn't give a full 'take' on the whole man and his opinions.
AND no one said you are not allowed to believe or say those words. YOU keep saying that...but no one here has told you to shut up or that you can't give your opinion.....except you...you've told me to put up or shut up. kind of rude of you if you ask me.
What has changed? Why are you accusing some of us of being anti-American because we don't agree with you or Bush? Want to back up YOUR words? I've never call you anti-American.
I've asked you questions on many an occasion but you always run away and hide after you dig a hole for yourself and you never answer. That's YOUR take on what I do...not mine. I don't agree. You will notice that I can have a discussion/share a different opinion with MANY here without having any problems at all.
I've tried to be nice to you and I've even apologized to you on occasion but all I get from you is constant sneering and ridicule, just because I don't support your views.
Nope....you'd be wrong again. I love opposing views....so I can argue my side...I don't like your rude statements to me...your constant 'tag along with helen' when she makes a comment to me....so I don't find you friendly.....has nothing to do with you holding different opinions. Heck bunni, fenix, reamond [just to name a few I can think of off hand] ALL hold different opinions than I do.
Isn't this all a bit silly? I don't know....you'll have to decide that for yourself. But if I feel I'm being attacked or insulted....not my opinion/view being challenged...then I will respond in kind...as I have with you and don't with those who I judge haven't treated me that way.
posted on May 10, 2004 09:32:08 PM new
helen - Imo....on all most every one of them.
Others have mentioned that to you many times....you just brush them off as not knowing what they're talking about....you discount what they say. Which, of course, is your right to do so. But I'd think after a while you might notice it's not just one or two people saying the same thing.
posted on May 10, 2004 09:33:01 PM new
Still no answer to my question...Can you think of one issue in which I have taken a postion that you say is "far left than socialism"???
posted on May 10, 2004 09:41:32 PM new
So...my Presidential candidate...my position on health care, the environment, education, economy, foreign policy....no one can say how my position on any of these issues is too far left?
posted on May 10, 2004 09:42:43 PM new
kiara - Here's just one quote from FDR - showing you a different side of him, perhaps.
(7) Theodore Roosevelt, America at War (1918)
All Americans of other race origin must act toward the countries from which their ancestors severally sprang as Washington and his associates in their day acted. Otherwise they are traitors to America. This applies especially today to all Americans of German blood who directly or indirectly in any manner support Germany as against the United States and the allies of the United States; it applies no less specifically to all American citizens of Irish blood who are led into following the same course, not by their love of Germany but by their hatred of England. One motive is as inexcusable as the other; and in each case the action is treasonable to the United States.
The professional pacifists have, during the last three years, proved themselves the evil enemies of their country. They now advocate an inconclusive peace. In so doing they have shown themselves to be the spiritual heirs of the Tories who in the name of peace opposed Washington, and of the "Copperheads" who in the name of peace opposed Lincoln. We regard these men and women as traitors to the republic; we regard them as traitors to the great cause of justice and humanity. This war is a war for the vital interests of America.
When we fight for America abroad we save our children from fighting for America at home beside their own ruined hearthstones.
We believe that the large majority of Americans are proudly ready to fight to the last for the overthrow of the brutal German militarism which threatens America no less than every other civilized nation. We believe that it would be an act of baseness and infamy, an act of unworthy cowardice, and a betrayal of this country and of mankind to accept any peace except the peace of overwhelming victory, a peace based on the complete overthrow of the Prussianized Germany of the Hohenzollerns.
posted on May 10, 2004 10:11:40 PM new
Linda, I did tell you to put up or shut up because you accused me of starting threads just to put down others when I've never done that and you accused me of insulting you when actually I'd said something nice about you. You can search out all the other threads where you agreed with twelvepole and attributed things to me that aren't my beliefs at all.
It's only the 2nd time that I quoted Roosevelt and I thought it was a fair question. Here are a couple more quotes by him.
Free speech exercised both individually and through a free press, is a necessity in any country where people are themselves free.
Wide differences of opinion in matters of religious, political and social belief must exist if conscience and intellect alike are not to be stunted.
And just because I agree with some of his quotes, it doesn't mean I have to agree with them all. Same as when someone posts an article here or a pic from a site, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with all the views on the site just because I agree with one article.
posted on May 10, 2004 10:31:02 PM new
kiara - I will try one more time. Then I'm done.
Personally I make the judgement that you take things too personally. You post a thread that [say] I don't agree with. I state that or argue my side. How I see our problem is that when I state my opposing view....I get a response similar to this one:
[i]I've asked you
questions on many an occasion but you always run away and hide after you dig a hole for yourself and you never answer[/i].
Those type of comments don't encourage me to want to go further on the issue with you. So I just stop responding. Because now you've made it personal rather than sticking to the subject matter.
I think that somehow you have the idea in your mind...that you can post whatever your want to....say whatever you want to .. [which of course - you can] but then you get all upset when someone questions/objects/states their own response to what you said.
I believe that because you keep repeating yourself on the 'why can't we be allowed to think/speak differently'. Some how you see someone [like me] disagreeing with you as stating you CAN'T say what you want to....or post your opinion.
Of course you can...we all can. But others are also free to state their objection/disagreement/ddifferent opinion on what you've said or posted.
And yes....I did see that one time when you said that. But there have been far to many posts from you to me like the one I've put in this post here and I'm saying that's why you're getting the responses from me that you're getting.
posted on May 10, 2004 10:50:57 PM new
Linda, I do take it personally when someone attributes things to me that I haven't said.
It's like some of us have to constantly defend ourselves here because others are always telling us what we believe when those aren't our beliefs at all. People don't do that to me in RL.
Here it's not like some just question or discuss what we've said, they take it out of context and then run with it, like it's truth.
So yes, I do take that personally and I will comment on it each time it happens.
posted on May 11, 2004 06:50:00 AM new
Oh what fun to be hounded by what linda says we say and what linda thinks we think and what linda says she thinks we read.
was just praising a book from MoveOn.org.
I always get such a kick out of you. One thread saying you don't care what I think...what my opinions are....then the next asking what I think.