posted on May 16, 2004 10:49:15 PM new
How lucky for the natives of some lands, when given the opportunity to be Christianised; that although most were rushed along to their deaths their souls were given the opportunity to be free.
posted on May 16, 2004 11:58:17 PM new
Near the Sea,
I guess I should thank you for trying to answer the question. You said that was how it was explained to me, but I was a teenager. Who explained this to you? And how does this person know this theory is correct? The point of my question was that Christians insist that there is a heaven and a hell. This is the place were the soul ended up when death happened. Since the Native People never heard of this concept, where did their souls go?
EAG,
You are a master of side stepping a simple question. I have asked you a question that you should be able to answer based on your apparent strong Christian belief system.
I am still waiting for your answer. I am thinking that if you are ready to answer the question with honesty, true logic, realism, and clarity, your answer might be sometime like this.
The Native People of North America never knew of the European practice of Christianity and never had the concept of heaven or hell, and I don't know what happened to their souls. They didn't know about heaven and hell in the fact these theoretical places are only the part of certain religious belief systems and not practiced throughout the world.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 17, 2004 12:04:43 AM new
According to the Bible, the Jews were God's chosen people. Native people and the rest of us were basically part of the environment like animals, plants, bacteria etc.
Let's say you're setting up a large fish tank for your favorite type of fish. You'll probably want to throw in some snails, bottom feeders, dangerous fish, and other types of fish to see how they all interact.
Imagine your fish aren't doing what you want and they really piss you off. But you really love this fish tank and instead of draining the tank and throwing everything away, you send your son into the tank who takes the form of a lowly fish. Your son sacrifices himself in a painful death to pay for the misdeeds of the other fish. And now every fish in the tank that follows your son becomes one of your favorites. Even the bottom feeders and snails. The fish in the tank that reject your son really disappoint you. The fish in the tank that never heard about your son are the same as they were before - just part of the environment.
That is the best analogy I could come up with. Christ made salvation available for the rest of us. I can't judge whether people who never heard about Christianity will get a chance at salvation. I hope so, but I really doubt it.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
As your Bible says, God created everyone equally and loves every living human being. Didn't God know about the Native People of North America before the Europeans landed here? How is it that the almighty God of the world didn't know about these people and only knew about the people of Europe? That is, the people that choose to practice Christianity. I am still sort of puzzled about this.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 17, 2004 12:44:22 AM new
If you read the Bible, you would know that God did not love everyone equally. The Jews were God's chosen people. Luckily for us, Christ made salvation available for everyone else.
I'm only guessing, but I think that God is indifferent to ignorant native peoples.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
posted on May 17, 2004 08:56:48 AM new
Wow, haven't been here in ages, and I guess I will try to weigh in.
1st- God created everything-the earth, plants, animals and man.
2nd- in Gensis, after the fall of man, God took 1 family (Noah and his sons) and saved them. Then He destroyed the earth with a flood.
3rd- everyone is a decendent from Adam through Noah. Which means when Adam sinned, we are all guilty of it.
4th- man migrated to fill the earth yet again. It was commanded by God after the flood.
5th- ergo, all early decendents of Noah and his family would know about God and His basic commandments. And no, Moses hadn't arrived yet to get the laws from God.
6th- as in the beginning, God allowed everyone to have free will, because He loves us enough to let us make our own choices. We need to choose Him freely, choose to love and obey Him. But, since man had already fallen into sin, man made poor choices. It doesn't suprise me that tribes that migrated to the Americas had not "heard" of Christianity;they were following the choices their ancestors had made generations ago.
7th- God's word (the Bible) states that He reveals Himself to us through things we can identify (a pharaphrase). So technically, no one has the excuse not to know God.
8th- when Christ died on the Cross, he was buried for 3 days. There are some scholars who think He preached the Good News (salvation through His atonement) in hell, so they would have a chance. Of this, I am not sure.
9th- God doesn't want any to perish; that is why He sent His Son to die in the first place. As the ultimate sinless sacrifice for a sinful race.
I hope this helps, Yeager. If not, I will try to post more information later. I am not an expert in this part of Christianity by a long shot, but I think I have at least given you a basis to look upon.
However, no matter what is posted by a Christian here, there will be people on this board who have their own POV. That is fine, it is part of the free will God has given to us.
in Christ,
Rick
Genesis 1:1
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on May 17, 2004 09:08:04 AM newGod allowed everyone to have free will, because He loves us enough to let us make our own choices.
LMAO !! Here we go again. A god that knows ALL, the begining and end, and even knew us before we were born COULD NOT "ALLOW" US TO HAVE FREE WILL. IF HE DID THAT WOULD MEAN THAT HE DOES NOT KNOW THE FUTURE OR US.
Either your god does not know the future or we do not have free will. It is impossible to have it both ways.
posted on May 17, 2004 09:17:23 AM new
How lucky for the natives of some lands, when given the opportunity to be Christianised; that although most were rushed along to their deaths their souls were given the opportunity to be free.
No Austbounty, I thought the question was about the NA that was here before any Europeans landed here. Like the Aborigines in your country.
4th- man migrated to fill the earth yet again. It was commanded by God after the flood.
How did the Native People get to this continent from Europe? They didn't take canoes across the Atlantic or the Pacific, did they?
If the Native People of North America came here from Europe as you implied, why didn't they speak European languages like those people of Europe? They didn't have a plan to create their own language did they?
Also, I will ask you the simple question. What happened to the souls of the Native People when they died? Do you think that they went to this place called heaven? Isn't it fair to say that in Christianity, heaven and hell are created places that were "invented" by the church.
Consider the fact the in the Wicca religion, (an religion older than Christianity) that there is no heaven or hell. Also, in this same religion, there is no book or printed matter to guide these people. So, wouldn't it be fair to say that the Bible only applies to those who use it? So for any Christian to imply that the Bible says................... and for him or her to think it applies to everyone is really nonsense. I have Wicca friends who don't believe in heaven or hell. When they die, their souls are going to niether, right?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 17, 2004 12:06:24 PM new
Yeager, I've been asking religious type questions here for a long time. Nobody can answer any of the tougher questions, although Near is always helpful (to me anyway).
Some religious pople can't separate themselves from the Bible - they soon become the Bible and can't think for themselves unless they quote scripture to fill in the blanks. They have no sense of themselves without the Bible to give them direction. This is why getting any real answers is pointless. They are so convinced they are God's chosen automatons and the rest of us are doomed, that they can't cross the line and use common sense.
This is why I say that the real anti-Christ is religion. (Bush just a desciple - ) In short form, the anti-Christ will be a wolf disquised as a lamb. The anti-Christ will start wars with the ultimate hypocrisy. The anti-Christ will fool the masses. The anti-Christ will capture your soul. I mean, do you know of anything else that would fit?
I agree with you on that. I hear the bible thumpers debating all the time what a certain passage in the bible means.
Thumper A will say, "my pastors says it means, blah blah blah", and the other will say "No, your pastor is wrong, it means this that and the other thing".
Both are so glued to the bible and what they think it means. Neither have an ability to think for themselves. A while back my friend and I were talking about bible thumpers, and she said, "did you ever notice that when people 'get religion', they get nutty too?".
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 17, 2004 02:48:53 PM new
How did the Native People get to this continent from Europe? They didn't take canoes across the Atlantic or the Pacific, did they?
If the Native People of North America came here from Europe as you implied, why didn't they speak European languages like those people of Europe? They didn't have a plan to create their own language did they?
I am far from being an anthropologist, or whatever its called, but I thought that Native Americans crossed over the land masses before the continents seperated. And they came from Asia, not Europe, and taking thousands upon thousands of years, how would they be speaking any 'native' tongue??
I could be wrong on exactly how they came here, but you don't have to be religious or 'biblical' to know that. Also, being a Christian is not a religion, its faith and a belief. Period.
posted on May 17, 2004 04:06:45 PM new
yeager, did ya ever notice when people have a huge crises in their lives, say a terminal illness themselves or their love ones they desperately wish they could know a God?
What is your answer for things that happen that are beyond our control? Faith is forever unseen and unproven yet the power of the BELIEF translates into a very strong cosmic energy force.
Even Jesus was no stranger to the science end of it. Do you agree we have electrical impulses in our brains and bodies, our being? Seems quite natural that all the more stronger then is that force when those of similar faiths congregate together. Thats what organized religion is. Just because you reject it doesnt mean its not so. Hundreds of years and millions of people gravitating toward the same thing cannot all be just stupid fools.
posted on May 17, 2004 04:44:00 PM new
Nero, if you're saying that God is the life force in everything, I agree with you. But can you or anyone explain to me what God can do for you that you can't do for yourself?
posted on May 17, 2004 05:26:07 PM new
Kraft, nah, ,sorry, right now I dont think
I can answer that for you because there isnt a blanket answer for everyone that I know of. I do know its about peace and freedom but I dont know if I could explain or verbalize it in a way that you would ultimately recognize as truth for you.
If and when the time comes for you to feel such a spirit for yourself...maybe you will be able to verbalize it
If you have this peace and freedom and recognize it as a great part of you, then shouldn't you be able to explain what it's like?
As far as me not liking organized religion, you are probably right on that. Many of the organized religions have political action committees that try to sway the lawmakers, whether it's at the state or federal level. Their standard argument is that the bible says, blah blah blah. Or it's against the bible for such things to happen. This book, the bible was written 2000+ - years ago. It's a very much out dated book for modern times.
Another thought is that the Christian power brokers strongly believe that everyone should be just like them, nothing more and nothing less. As I have said before, if you are not like them, or have different beliefs, then you are considered an outcast.
The Pope is the most recognized power broker. He has gone as far as contacting Catholic lawmakers to offer "the position" on such issues of gay marriage. I personally don't care what Catholics or any person of any other religious affiliation do. I don't want them trying to control me and what I think is socially acceptable. Not every one is Catholic, as I am sure you would know.
As far as a person wanting to know a God when a crisis comes about, I could think of a couple of reasons for that. I think all they want is a change in the fact they don't like what is happening. They believe that a God, I don't know who's God would bring that change. I also think that in the case medical science fails, then they can say something to the effect that God wanted it this way. Some also say the God is watching ever him/her. Some refer to the "man upstairs" doing his best.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 11:58:52 AM new
Yeager, see what I mean? Nobody will answer this very simple question because they don't want to face reality. The thought that people have full control over every aspect of their life and fate is too scarey to think about. It's preferable to think there's a big daddy in the clouds that controls all. One who is so self-absorbed that if you don't praise him and follow his instructions via the Bible, you'll end up in hell. Does this really make sense?
Nero, just so you know, I am anti-religion but pro-God. From what Yeager has posted so far, I see him being the same way. Kind of the same as being anti-Bush but pro-USA. Religion has done nothing for the betterment of mankind and is akin to a mass cult, imo. One in which the members need deprogramming to see the real God.
posted on May 18, 2004 02:05:22 PM new
The thought that people have full control over every aspect of their life and fate is too scarey to think about.
I disagree with this statement. While people have some control over their life, they can not control every aspect of it. They can control when and how they will die (I am excluding those who take their own life).
Do you think Nick Berg had control over his life when he died? Do you think the people that died on 9/11 had control of their life?
Do you think Christopher Revee had control of his life when he was thrown from the horse?
How would you explain events like these?
Some things in life happen for a reason which can not be explained and we have no control over.
posted on May 18, 2004 02:09:50 PM newReligion has done nothing for the betterment of mankind and is akin to a mass cult, imo. One in which the members need deprogramming to see the real God.
The part of your post that I bolded is such an untrue statement....and a VERY mis-informed one at that.
So....KD IS Bush the anti-christ in your mind???? or did you just, once again, start a thread to
point out to EVERYONE....how very wrong they are [according to you] for choosing a path that's different from the one you choose to follow.
posted on May 18, 2004 02:36:05 PM new
Logansdad, when you ride horses in competition, you accept the risks that come with the sport. One of those risks could be death, so it's your choice. Nick Berg knew he was in very dangerous territory which could result in death. It was his choice. No, you can't control when you're born or when you die, but you can control everything in between with the choices you make.
Linda, no I don't think Bush is the anti-Christ as I previously said. And the bolded part of my statement is what I feel, so please tell me how I'm mis-informed, in your opinion.
Also, what are you referring to when you say "or did you just, once again, start a thread to point out to EVERYONE....how very wrong they are [according to you] for choosing a path that's different from the one you choose to follow."?
posted on May 18, 2004 04:35:03 PM new big daddy in the sky pro-God/anti-religion One who is so self-absorbed that if you don't praise him....
lol, kraft, ,thanks for the laugh!
God to you - is self-absorbed??
I wont argue the point with you because I do believe everyone is free to believe what they want. But I do have to say, imo, I dont think youre really pro-God at all from your statements!
The God I know IS a supernatural being. Seems the God you know is merely attributed human feelings and qualities. Thats not a GOD. I dont think you believe in any GOD at all. Since the beginning of the ages, humans have attributed various things as Gods and all of them are supernatural. How do you interpret your big daddy in the sky as anything remotely akin to *A* God?
Any God is supernatural, infallable...thats the whole point. The natives may say the Sun is a God -- we have no control over what the sun does; its beyond us.
I will quote a line from the bible even though I am far from a, quote, bible thumper:
"Be still and know that I am God".
(Have you ever in your whole life been still, kraft?? - Let it all go?) Maybe one day when you have a moment of quietness you can try to absorb that for yourself.
I agree. I am not an evil person. I try to do a good deed for a complete stranger everyday. It could be a simple thing like making eye contact and saying "hi" to a person in a wheelchair. I have never been arrested or in jail, not even for a day. I respect other people.
What I don't like is the state of organized religion trying to take over everyone's life. They have so many right wing political action committees that are in bed with lawmakers, it's sickening. If you look at how much these people/groups give to election funds, you would vomit. Most of their agenda has nothing to do with their own lives, but only with controlling the lives of others. The ultimate goal of these people is to control how you think, and what you are allowed to do.
What is a cult? For the most part a cult is a group of people who share in like minded thinking. That is, join with us. We will protect you. If you fail to join, you will not be as well off, as if you did.
Religion is very funny to me. It is a factor in society that attracts so many people, and these same people can't agree on the same thing on many issues of it. Additionally, it has certain mysteries that nobody can explain, but those people behold to it anyway. The one thing that most do agree on is this. If you are not part of the religious faith that they belong to, then you are nothing. They really believe this. Those who feel this way are bigots! It doesn't matter how good a person they are, or how much time or money they give to charity. They still are bigots.
Speaking of the Baptist Church, I used to know these people that all of the sudden "got religion". The women weren't allowed to wear shorts in the summertime, but were allowed to wear culottes, which are a long, baggy dress like garment which resembled shorts. This is a perfect example of the church controlling the members, and not trusting the women to use good judgment on the way they dressed. All the women got really porky too. They developed "shelves" on the rear torso area. The husband of one of these women started wearing a suit and tie everyday. Even to work. Oh, BTW, he drove a cab for a living.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 05:25:38 PM new
Nero, yes, I think the God in the Bible is self-absorbed. He's manipulative and threatens everyone with his power. He encourages war and is against homosexuals. He gives us free choice with strict limits... all in the name of love. Do you feel that fits with what God's all about? If you think he's a supernatural being then that's fine. I just don't feel God is a separate entity and don't believe God took part in the writing of the Bible, so to me, God and religion are at the opposite ends of the scale.
Near, I'm sure you know what Linda means, but I don't. Maybe it's my imagination, but she seems to be dropping little accusations here and there without backing anything up. Weird eh?
