posted on May 18, 2004 07:11:56 PM new
Now kraft, I really like Linda, and thats one thing, I guess that we don't see the same on. I've observed, I guess we can call them 'sides' now huh? both sides, and I see one side doing the same as the other.
To me she's a really good debater and takes part in a discussion with a lot of thought.
posted on May 18, 2004 07:58:28 PM new
yeager - What I don't like is the state of organized religion trying to take over everyone's life.
Maybe you could look at it another way. They're supporting what they believe...just as those who are anti-religious do.
Should their free speech 'right' [under our constitution] now be amended so you don't have to listen to it? Because other than hearing what they say....seeing how they vote [another 'right' they have] "they have no way of 'taking over everyone's life".
They have so many right wing political action committees that are in bed with lawmakers, it's sickening. If you look at how much these people/groups give to election funds, you would vomit. Most of their agenda has nothing to do with their own lives.....
The most recent account of money that both political parties currently have received [and is being spent, politically, for their benefit] is about equal. So both sides are donating funds to the 'side' they support. EQUAL. And even if it weren't.....are you suggesting they don't have a 'right' to give their hard-earned dollars to whomever they wish to?
You certainly can't be saying we should now not let those 86% of American who profess to be religious NOT have a say in the way the government is ran - only for the reason you are anti-religion - are you?
You keep mentioning what a great guy you are.....but what I see is a person who appears not to support our constitution in two areas.....freedom to practice one's religion ....and the right to vote on the direction THEY want their government to take....no matter their religious affiliation.
posted on May 18, 2004 08:16:56 PM new
KD - No reason to be so coy....you know what I mean...and so does everyone else who has read your 'religious questioning' threads over a long period of time.
They all go the same way....
Re-elect President Bush!!
You are so right. Everyone should have the right to pursue what they think is correct. However, you failed to mention that the Christian right is trying to have an affect on the lives of other with whom they disagree. My point was that any group that tries to promote their OWN interest and improve their OWN lot in live, might be attacked by the Christian right. That is, if the Christian right disagree with them.
Now on to you. You seem to want to keep everything as it is now. Nothing should ever change, right? Everything should be like it is in your idealistic mind. Consider that fact that society ALWAYS CHANGES.
If we were to turn back the calender 100 years you would be the following........
Barefoot and pregnant
Expected to marry early
Dominated by your husband
A household drudge
Not allowed to vote
Having no clout in the business world
Not educated, or having the chance to obtain education.
Very, very little chance of a divorce if you wanted or needed one.
A second class citizen
And wearing a korset
Now Linda, I know that you appreciate the gains that the women who protested in the past made available for you to enjoy today. They, the women who participated in the women's suffrage movement were considered outcasts in their time. Why? Because they wanted a change in their lives. They didn't like the system as it currently stood. I am sure that you understand this too.
Linda, you do appreciate the fact that you have rights, don't you?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
I have another question for you. If you and I were neighbors, and you wanted to plant a maple tree in YOUR front yard, would I have a right to object to it if I didn't like maple trees?
I could say something like, "we don't have maple trees in this neighborhood".
Or, "that looks pretty bad to me".
Or, "There ought to be a law against planting maple trees here".
Even though it was YOUR front yard, and didn't affect me in any way, should I have a right to object to it.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 08:58:59 PM new
Linda, I'm not being "coy" at all. You and I have agreed to disagree in the past but lately you haven't been yourself. I have never accused you of anything, yet lately you have accused me of a couple of things which I didn't say or do, like this...
"... or did you just, once again, start a thread to point out to EVERYONE....how very wrong they are [according to you] for choosing a path that's different from the one you choose to follow."
Where have I started any religious threads to point out to EVERYONE how wrong they are?? (LoL!) And while we're on the topic, why don't I show you your last 20 posts where you show people how wrong they are for following a different path than the one Bush is on? Geez, lighten up Linda. Everyone has made some good points, but if it's not your cup of tea, you can always post to another thread that is.
posted on May 18, 2004 09:19:01 PM new
yeager - However, you failed to mention that the Christian right is trying to have an affect on the lives of other with whom they disagree. My point was that any group that tries to promote their OWN interest and improve their OWN lot in live, might be attacked by the Christian right. That is, if the Christian right disagree with them.
And this is different from the groups of say gays...who will vote for what they believe is in their best interest? Or blacks who vote for the party they think most represents them? etc...etc. They're NO different than those on the right yeager.....
posted on May 18, 2004 09:40:11 PM new
[i]I have another question for you. If you and I were neighbors, and you wanted to plant a maple tree in YOUR front yard, would I have a right to object to it if I didn't like maple trees? I could say something like, "we don't have maple trees in this neighborhood".
Or, "that looks pretty bad to me". Or, "There ought to be a law against planting maple trees here". Even though it was YOUR front yard, and didn't affect me in any way, should I have a right to object to it[/i].
We ALL have a right to object to whatever we want....all of us. If you said that to me I'd turn and walk away...thinking you'd lost your mind. [Knowing you should know you have no control over what I decide to plant in my own yard.
Your premise of 'didn't affect me in any way' doesn't apply to most political differences....if it did there would be no debating/arguing the points we each believe in.
All the laws that are passed will have to be honored by those who may not agree with them. So electing a person who most agrees with our positions in life is VERY important.
The point of that scenario was it wasn't my business. Just as so many people try to control the issue of other people, even though is doesn't effect them.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 10:05:59 PM new
Linda says,
"And this is different from the groups of say gays...who will vote for what they believe is in their best interest? Or blacks who vote for the party they think most represents them? etc...etc. They're NO different than those on the right yeager..... "
How is it in the best interest of the conservative right to vote against black or gay Americans????????? How does it improve their life experience???????
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 10:24:59 PM newThe point of that scenario was it wasn't my business. Just as so many people try to control the issue of other people, even though is doesn't effect them.
No your tree example wasn't your business. But anyone's right to vote how they wish is.
And they will vote according to whether they approve/agree with an issue or not. It is their business. It's going to govern - have an effect on - their life, their belief system, what direction they want to see their country take.
Linda says,
"And this is different from the groups of say gays...who will vote for what they believe is in their best interest? Or blacks who vote for the party they think most represents them? etc...etc. They're NO different than those on the right yeager..... "
How is it in the best interest of the conservative right to vote against black or gay Americans?????????
You took what I said wrong. You were speaking about why should the 'group' [the religious right] have a say so about what others do. I questioned how this is different for all the 'other' groups that support a party because of how they judge they give more support to that group? I used the two I did....but one could add the unions, the lawyers associations, the Muslim groups too....or any of the other 'special interest' groups. They ALL vote for the party that most supports their positions.
Again, you are absolutely right when you indicate all the groups that you mentioned voting in their own best interest. It happens all the time. And there is nothing wrong with that.
The question still remains. How is it in the best interest of the conservative right to vote against, say, black or gay Americans????????? How does it improve their life experience???????
The fact is that it doesn't improve the lives of the conservative right, but only controls the lives of others.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 19, 2004 12:58:28 AM new
yeager - The 'right' doesn't vote against blacks, gays or anyone else.
They vote their opinions, values, beliefs, morals, etc.
Since you appear to me to be one who lives by the theory..."what other's do doesn't really effect me" + "gays got married legally today - it doesn't change my life one bit".....I'll say that it does effect others and leave it at that.
Re-elect President Bush!!
edited to add:
I'll use your example to make my point, yeager
You said, "However, you failed to mention that the Christian right is trying to have an affect on the lives of other with whom they disagree."
And what *you* fail to see is that others [non-religious/secular] people are doing exactly the same thing. Take the Mich C.O. law...those who object to that law passing their House are trying to force those who oppose doing certain procedures *themselves* to have to do them anyway. No difference at all.
They're not saying..."Well, hey, if they find it objectionable then they shouldn't have to do it." Live and let live...it doesn't really affect or change my life...I won't be having an abortion/etc.
No, they are forcing someone whose belief system says doing that procedure is murder to do so anyway....not because it affects their lives.....because THEY think that's the way it should be.
I still have to disagree with your statement that people have control over everything in their life.
There are just some things we have no control over. Yeah you can say Nick Berg could have prevented his death by not going to Iraq or Christopher Revee could have prevented his injury by not participating in such a dangerous sport, but how to do explain the person that obeys every traffic law, drives the speed limit and wears a seat belt only to be killed by a drunken driver.
What are you supposed to do, stay home and not go out any where? Are you supposed to do all your shopping over the Internet to avoid dangerous situations on the road?
What about the person who is physically fit and works out 4 times a week only to die of a heart attack?
What about the person who works at a company for 25 years only to have the company close to do bankruptcy.
You can try to lower your risk in life by avoiding dangerous situations but ultimately there are some things you have no control over.
posted on May 19, 2004 08:25:20 AM new
Linda says,
The 'right' doesn't vote against blacks, gays or anyone else.
They vote their opinions, values, beliefs, morals, etc.
Oh really Linda? The current agenda of the Christian right is to reverse, nullify, and end gay marriage in Massachusetts or any other state. This is one of the many agenda items they have.
"Since you appear to me to be one who lives by the theory..."what other's do doesn't really effect me" + "gays got married legally today - it doesn't change my life one bit".....[b]I'll say that it does effect others and leave it at that."
Now Linda, when you say that gay marriage effects other, how so? There are so many people that say that allowing gay people to marry will have a negative effect on them, but nobody can site anything specific, and that includes YOU!
If a gay or lesbian couple moved in next door to you, would that effect you in any way? If so, how? Remember the tree example, what happens on your property doesn't effect me. So, please explain in full.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 19, 2004 08:35:11 AM new
NearTheSea,
Good Lord how does womens suffrage and their rights have to do with Christianity?
It really has nothing to do with Christianity. The point of the post was that society always is changing. The women's suffrage movement was a societal change that allowed women to enjoy a better life. They wanted a chance to have things that weren't allowed to them by the current standard of society.
The civil rights movement started by blacks allowed them to have a better live also. They wanted a chance to have things that weren't allowed to them by the current standard of society.
The gay rights movement is the same thing. They wanted a chance to have things that aren't allowed to them by the current standard of society.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 19, 2004 09:03:17 AM newNow Linda, when you say that gay marriage effects other, how so?
Don't expect a cogent answer for this question. I have read and listened to the "best" minds in this debate and they can't come up with a cogent rational answer.
posted on May 19, 2004 09:45:23 AM new
LOL, reamond - then maybe you and yeager haven't heard kerry's answer for why HE doesn't support gay marriage then.
---------------------
The current agenda of the Christian right is to reverse, nullify, and end gay marriage in Massachusetts or any other state.
Again, yeager, what you fail to see or accept is that it's not ONLY the 'Christian right' who objects to gays marrying. 38 states so far have passed laws that say marriage is between one man and one woman. Is your opinion that they're ALL members of the Christian right? The majority of voters in Mass. have said they would support gay civil unions....NOT gay marriage.
Now Linda, when you say that gay marriage effects other, how so?
yeager I've explained and explained this many many times on thread about how, imo - and in the opinion of many - and in studies in other countries - and I'm about explained out. It affects our society as a whole. It further devalues the meaning of the institution of marriage and the family unit.
but nobody can site anything specific, and that includes YOU!
Not true...I gave supporting evidence - but guess what? No one here who supports gay marriage gave it one bit of credibility. Like that's surprise me.
If a gay or lesbian couple moved in next door to you, would that effect you in any way?
I've had gay people who lived on my street. I've worked with gay and lesbian people, I've gone to parties and concerts with lesbians who worked for my husband. Their sex life didn't effect me at all. They didn't ever try to force their lifestyle on me in anyway. That still never changed my views on changing our nations history to allow gays to 'marry'. I have also said I would support civil unions.....I want and support traditional marriage staying 'one man and one woman'....it's a value I have.
posted on May 19, 2004 09:52:17 AM new
logansdad - Are you sitting down? I'm going to agree with you. What you just posted to KD is exactly what I was going to say to her, but decided against it.
And I'll now add:
Even sitting in the safetly of one's home....lightning/tornados/floods/etc could strike which couldn't be prevented, once could slip and fall in the shower - hit their head and die, a tree could fall on the house and kill them, a car could come through their livingroom wall - as it did to friends of mine.
There are so many things in life we have no control over. Anyone who thinks they control *everything* in their life between birth and death......[trying to say gently here] is sadly mistaken.
posted on May 19, 2004 11:05:34 AM new
Logansdad, nobody can control things that happen outside of themselves like accidents - weather, etc. But what you do as a person - from within, is totally under your control with the decisions you make. Unless people are trying to say that God controls all of this. Did God control Nick Berg's death or Christopher Reeve's fall? Is that what you're trying to say? I'll give you an example of what I mean...
Mr. X has eaten steaks and cheesecake for years. Mr. X goes to his doctor and finds out he has cancer. He can't figure out why because he's been a good guy all of his life. Mr. X chose to eat poorly which is what gave him cancer. God didn't give him cancer.
And regarding the lottery, you are talking about things outdside of yourself, so again, my question is, what can God do for YOU that you can't do for yourself? Can ANYONE answer this question for me?
My first response and original examples were in response to your statement: The thought that people have full control over every aspect of their life and fate is too scarey to think about.
In that statement you said "every aspect", you have since clarified what you meant.
Mr. X has eaten steaks and cheesecake for years. Mr. X goes to his doctor and finds out he has cancer. He can't figure out why because he's been a good guy all of his life. Mr. X chose to eat poorly which is what gave him cancer. God didn't give him cancer.
How do you know that the cancer was caused by what he ate? How do you know the cancer wasn't caused by some foreign substance that that was inhaled into his body ten years prior to eating unhealthy. You don't. Your example is just like the person who exercises everyday, eats well and then dies of a heart attack. Did the guy cause his own heart attack? Did God cause his heart attack? I would say no in both cases. Do I have an explanation of why it ocurred to this guy and not some other poor slob who eats 10 big macs a day and doesn't exercise. No. It happens for an unkown reason which nobody can explain in certainty.
The only explanation I have is "it was his time to die". I would call that fate.
fate:
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
3. A final result or consequence; an outcome.
4. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
Since the beginning of time, people used "Gods or higher beings" as the reason for things which they could not explain.
As for your question what can God do for YOU that you can't do for yourself? Can ANYONE answer this question for me?
I don't know what you are looking for but I will give my thoughts. Take Christopher Reeve. God can't give him new legs or say get up and walk, you are healed. However, if a person believes he can walk, he may find the will power to at least try and walk. It is my belief God can give you this "inner strength" to believe something positive can happen at times when there seems like there is no hope.
Do you believe God or a higher power created all things, both good and bad?
If so why would it be difficult to say God created disease and also the cure for them?
posted on May 19, 2004 01:00:20 PM new
Hi...boy this thread has gone a long way from where it was ...lol!!
Near, ty. I always liked that quote, too. To me, it is privy to the awesomeness of God if youre lucky enough to get to fully experience it.
Logan, your comment to Kraft is so very right on target!
Kraft, we need the Sun, the rain, all elements of nature to work right. We cant do a damn thing about those ourselves. Tell me, should a nuke blow up our man made heating capability and enginerring systems -- how would we know warmth? How could we grow food without the awesomeness of the universe working as it should? Did man create all this? I dont think so. If your concept of God is that he is within, then I can agree with you. But man is a measel on the being that put this universe into motion and even if you wanted to believe atoms split, we couldnt do it and had nothing to do with it.
So now a question for you. Who is your God?
What does he/she/it require of you? Does he reside only in you or does he reside in even the most horrid or even gasp..right wingers, too? Are there any expectations and if so, how did or does his ideas get conveyed to you?
posted on May 19, 2004 01:25:28 PM new
I've totally lost track on this whole thread. Anti Christ to begin with, than Christianity. Womens suffrage and what? Linda can too plant a maple tree in her yard!
I'm lost, but still love that quote or scripture neroter
No! Linda can't plant a maple tree in her front yard. If she does, I will go there and chop it down some night!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
It further devalues the meaning of the institution of marriage and the family unit.
Now come on. The institution of marriage as we knew it was gone a long time ago. The fact is that 50 percent of all new marriages will end in divorce. There are all the rather stupid TV show making a mockery of marriage. And of course, Brittany Spears has diluted it even further. Anyone can get married at the county courthouse at any time. I could get married at 4:00 in the afternoon in my factory work clothes after getting out of the foundry at 3:30. Or, I could show up at the court house after having a few beers at my favorite watering hole. A couple could get married at the Elvis chapel in Las Vegas in the morning and fly home that evening. This same couple could get divorced 2 months later, if they felt the need. With all the divorce happening at this time, there are so many mixed up kids also. The institution of marriage as we knew it is LONG GONE!
This is not about preserving the sanctity of marriage. It is only about conservative effort trying to prevent that certain group (gays men and women) from marrying because they don't like the idea of it. This is, even though it doesn't effect them in any way.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 19, 2004 02:21:36 PM new
Logansdad, you're right - my statement didn't include life and death, genetics, the lottery, accidents, etc.
My point is that, in my opinion, God lives inside each person making them God over their own lives. If the sum of a person is their thoughts and actions, then they are in full control of their destiny. So the external God everyone is seeking is already inside you. The tools are already there. Whether you choose to use them is your choice. People sometimes ask how God can let babies starve or why he allowed the Holocaust, etc. Those are all people choices. But when you get into something like group thinking in which there are strict guidelines, you become less and less of an individual and more Borg-like. To think that God approves of war and hating gays or any other judgements you might have against another person, is nuts.
As I said before, I think God is the life force in everything, not a super natural being or a guy that sits in heaven waiting to judge everyone - this is just Bible talk. Just like Nero said, I think we all have the power or energy inside each of us to do magical things for ourselves and the world around us. Religions usually support the opposite where you rely on "God's word" to form your opinions or God himself to do the magical things.
[ edited by kraftdinner on May 19, 2004 08:04 PM ]
posted on May 19, 2004 06:53:18 PM newThis is not about preserving the sanctity of marriage. It is only about conservative effort trying to prevent that certain group (gays men and women) from marrying because they don't like the idea of it.
Whatever you say yeager...........I guess all those in the 38 states are all conservatives then. not
not