fenix03
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posted on May 18, 2004 09:41:50 PM new
Libra - I don't know about your hospital but I know in at leaswt three of the hospitals that I grew up around the the departments were combined and techs performed multiple duties. Again however you are MISSING THE POINT. It's not about the procudure itself. Because of the wording a tech can stTate that they have an ethical objection to performing a procedure on an Arab woman or use a religious objection to not perform a procedure on an athiest. The law is too damn broad, but the there was no way they could get away with it if they narrowed it down to it's actual purpose.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 18, 2004 10:11:55 PM new
you mean that they had to wirte this absurdly broad law in order to avoid being forced to work in a fertility clinic that deals with illegal human cloning or to volunteer to administer drugs to a death penalty inmate in another state since Michigan does not even have a death penalty and was in fact the first english speaking government in the world to ban it back in 1846?
That was what I read....*to be all inclusive* - to include what medical procedures/treatments are currently being done and those that are being discussed for the near future, yes.
I mentioned several of the possible objections fenix. And I will repeat....they will be required to fill out a CO form to state exactly what they find offensive morally/etc. Should a procedure come about in the future they don't want to perform [as has happened to many since they got their degrees] then they have 24 hours notice to file the CO on that procedure/treatment.
I do not support your position that people who spent years getting educated and being trained for their jobs should be forced to give up those careers.
Nor do I agree with a premed-student not being allowed to go into the field of medicine, because he/she finds giving abortions on demand morally offensive. Heck, the odds are they most likely aren't chosing to even be OBGYNs. But even if that's not the field they wish to do internship for......the liberals continue to push for this to be a requirement to get their certificate. That's outrageous!!!
I don't believe you ever addressed my question about CO's during wartime...during the draft. Was that okay with you that there were people who didn't want to use a gun against another person? If so...how is this different in your mind?
edited to add: that they have an ethical objection to performing a procedure on an Arab woman or use a religious objection to not perform a procedure on an athiest.
These senarios most likely wouldn't happen....but should anyone even try to pull that they'd be sued under an anti-discrimination law which protects everyone.
Re-elect President Bush!!
[ edited by Linda_K on May 18, 2004 11:07 PM ]
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Libra63
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posted on May 18, 2004 11:25:48 PM new
Fennis-Obvious you have never had a mammogram. The two departments, Radiology and Mammography are two very separate entities. Although they maybe in the same department Registered Radiologic Technologist cannot do mammograms. It requires a Registered Mammography Technologist. Two different people. A Registered Mammographer must also be a Registered Radiolotic Technologist. In order to qualify to be a mammographer there are certain criteria that has to be met. The FDA, American Cancer Society require facilities that do mammograms follow certain guidelines. A Registered Technologist must complete 40 hours of training/ education, a specified number of mammographic examinations. quality control prodedures, selected special prodedures, Mammographic review and critique with a radiologist. Followed by a Mammographic Certification Examination. There are very strict guidelines that must be followed and a non trained technologist cannot not perform mammographic studies. A Registered Radiologic Technologist is not a Registered Mammography Technologist and according to the FDA and the American Cancer Society cannot perform mammograms. This has been since 1992. A Registered Mammography Technologist must perform a certain amount of mammograms per year in order to keep up the certificate.
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Libra63
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posted on May 18, 2004 11:31:28 PM new
As I said in an earlier thread that we as Technologists never knew what religious affiliation or if they had any. What does Religious or any other affiliation or anything have to do with Mammograms. Nothing. I am a protestent and I have done mammograms on Nuns. I didn't object and they didn't either. Men never objected either. BTW Male Registered Technologist don't do mammograms unless the department they are in have only males and then they have to be certifited.
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fenix03
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posted on May 18, 2004 11:59:13 PM new
LIbra - aare really so dense that you miss that even your own response supported what I said? Mammography Techs are also Radiology Techs - they have gone on for advanced education and in many hospitals they will perform dual duties depending on staffing.
As for never knowing the religion of a patient... you never had to remind a someone to remove their Star of David por Crucifix or spoke with a patient beforehand and noticed that they were wearing tradional clothing of their culture?
The bigger problem here is that you have so personalized your view of this law that you refuse to see the bigger picture of the problems it can cause.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 12:02:25 AM new
:: I don't believe you ever addressed my question about CO's during wartime...during the draft. Was that okay with you that there were people who didn't want to use a gun against another person? If so...how is this different in your mind?::
No, I do not have a onjection to CO status with draftees and it is different because a draft by its very nature is not a volunteer situation where as a medical career is.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 01:15:29 AM new
No, I do not have a onjection to CO status with draftees and it is different because a draft by its very nature is not a volunteer situation where as a medical career is.
This is where you will not accept that there were many in the health profession who were educated/in jobs BEFORE abortions were being FORCED in their job description. We're not talking about when abortions were first performed....we're talking about when the ACLU and it's supporters decided that all were going to do them even if they objected.
Same thing with Catholic Charity workers...Catholic hospitals....forcing them to provide BCP's/abortions/family planning/etc. when their religion is against it. I could go on and on....but you get the picture.
If a doctor desides he/she wants to specialize in oncology or any other field of medicine....there is absolutely NO reason they can't sign a CO and gain entrance to a medical college. Except the left is constantly working to shove their own beliefs down the throats of those they accuse of doing the very same thing - instead of finding a doctor who has no objection to doing these same things.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 02:16:16 AM new
As for never knowing the religion of a patient... you never had to remind a someone to remove their Star of David por Crucifix or spoke with a patient beforehand and noticed that they were wearing tradional clothing of their culture?
The routine procedure is the person is put into a dressing room and asked to disrobe from the waist up....instructed to remove everything and they always emphasize jewelry removal....question if they remembered to not apply deodorant that day if they say they did they ask them to remoe it. The person giving these instructions normally isn't the mammography tech....the patient doesn't see the tech until they enter the room to administer the "squeeze" [lol]. The patient never sees the radiologist. From my own personal experience [my mammograms] and from two different work places this is the way it was done.
The head adornment wouldn't be seen until the tech entered the room where the patient was and if her religion because an issue.....she'd be rich real quick.
Re-elect President Bush!!
[ edited by Linda_K on May 19, 2004 02:20 AM ]
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 02:25:51 AM new
Linda - I do not doubt that that is the procedure that you went thru - but it is not always the case. I know from in at least one hospital that I grew up around the "waiting room" was directly across the hall from the Mammography "department". The tech came out into the hall and call the patients name, went thru the prep talk, directed them to the dressing room and then performed the procedure.
Procedures are different in different hospitals and this new law specifically protects the tech from a lawsuit.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 02:48:37 AM new
fenix - Imho you're trying to find problems that don't - most likely won't - happen.
If - this also passes their Senate - and IF people feel they are discriminated against - they're going to file lawsuits...
....lawsuits just the opposite of those being filed now by all the hospitals/doctors/nursing staff/etc that are rebelling against being forced to do what they don't feel the law requires them to do.
The passage of this law didn't come about because those in the medical profession don't want to treat patients from other countries/cultures....but rather because of all the forced changes they feel they're being forced to make....and they're rebelling....and they're having some success in that rebellion. Other states have almost the same CO on their agendas...time will tell who wins. But some are calling for a Federal law to be passed preventing these forced actions - rather than them being done on a state by state basis.
nite
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 03:40:56 AM new
::nite::
Now see that's just mean... you probably know I'll be working thru the nite tonight and there you go flaunting that you are going to bed.... 
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Libra63
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posted on May 19, 2004 08:15:16 AM new
Fenix There is NO debating with you. Your opinion is always right everyone elses is wrong. Check back on most of the threads and you will see what I mean. If you understand the hospital business you would understand. I really don't care if your parents were department heads when they become a department head they became a part of management and they MUST do the duties explained in their job description. Ordinary workers have different job descriptions. At the hospital I worked the nurses that didn't believe in abortion did NOT do abortions. Surgical nurses or techs. volunteered when abortions were done and they were only done on Saturdays. I worked in a very large suburban Chicago Hospital.
I hope when you have your mammogram that you go to a facility that is certified by the FDA and American Cancer Society where there are fully trained Mammography Techs and not just your ordinary Radiologic Technologist. That all rules are followed so that you can get the best examination that you deserve. I have never heard of a Mammography Tech refuse to do mammograms because of Race, Color or Creed. What do I care if someone is wearing a Star of David. In my eyes these are customers here for a service and I will give them the best service that I was trained to do.
I wish that for everyone, man or woman, on this discussion board the same.
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 10:14:22 AM new
LIbra - you are right - there is no point is you debating me. When it you come up with your very own personal definitions of things like job exportation, and are unable to see larger pictures, there there really is no point. I assume this means you will not be disagreeing with me in the future
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 10:36:32 AM new
hey fenix - At least you were accomplishing something....I wasn't. Besides I wanted to get to bed before helen woke up and told me to go to bed again.
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Now libra - remember that 'tough' skin theory. Tell her no....that doesn't mean that you won't be debating her in the future. [hint - she's just a strong-willed - very opinionated woman like me  ]
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 11:10:11 AM new
Hey..... Hey! No prompting from the peanut gallery!
Linda- yeah, my new site is fast approaching launch mode. I pull all nighters at least once a week because my suppliers are all in the far east and I need to "converse" with them via email on different product and order details. Since they are not in the factory during our standard business hours, I have to work on theirs sometimes. In between emails I drove myself batty trying to remember how to create a pop-up window that was sized exactly to a graphic file. I even resorted to pulling out a manual. Either me and the manual have lost our minds or my browsers just hate me because everytime I click on that button, a new full sized window pops up with all the bells and whistle I specifically stated I don't want in it and my picture file up there in the corner just like it is not supposed to be.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Helenjw
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posted on May 19, 2004 11:12:12 AM new
"Besides I wanted to get to bed before helen woke up and told me to go to bed again."
You need your rest so you won't become a quarrelsome old grouch. I'm just trying to offer helpful suggestions.
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Libra63
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posted on May 19, 2004 11:14:42 AM new
Fennix-I hope this article puts your concerns to rest.
This is taken from the ARRT Code of Ethics
This is #3 in the Mission Statement of the American Registry of Radiologic Technologists. I have only quoted #3 as it relates to what I have been trying to tell you. If you want to read the rest I have given you the URL.
http://www.arrt.org/website/newsite/ethics/standardethic.htm
#3.The Radiologic Technologist delivers patient care and service unrestricted by the concerns of personal attributes or the nature of the disease or illness, and without discrimination on the basis of sex, race, creed, religion or socioeconomic status
[ edited by Libra63 on May 19, 2004 11:18 AM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on May 19, 2004 11:24:28 AM new
Wouldn't it be wonderful, libra if all medical personel, including doctors supported such ethics!
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 11:59:15 AM new
Peanut gallery huh? ummmm...
Well - I sure admire your perseverance with your website. Good luck....and ask for help if you can't get passed that point....there's still a few left here with great computer knowledge/skills.....least they have ME convinced they do.
One of these days....we're going to have to start a thread to discuss how your loft is coming along....what you've done to it.
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Helen - I'd be more than willing to admit to being grouchy when I am.....and I don't mind being called on being grouchy either. Plus I'm willing to joke around about going to bed in the middle of the night. It's just the snide remarks about me 'sneaking' in - in the middle night to post - suggesting I'm doing so to avoid something (?) whatever that is - that I don't appreciate.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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Helenjw
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posted on May 19, 2004 12:19:41 PM new
Well, there you go...I try to lighten up the situation with you and you use my comment to start more bitchiness. Your escalating attention to personal attack, is forcing me to ratchet down my already low appraisal of your arguments.
sp ed.
[ edited by Helenjw on May 19, 2004 12:24 PM ]
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 12:28:04 PM new
LOL - Don't ask! I have many a plan but nothing has been done yet. I have picked out a color scheme but I can't really do anything until I get the walls painted and 5' of me vs 20' of wall height = really need to bring in scaffolding.
Right now the kitchen is the bain of my existance though. 14' x 12' and 4 whole cabinets... who does that? I guess I should be thankful for those since they had to create a "wall" to hang the top ones. All four walls of the room are concrete. I do have an idea though thanks to the final epidose of Trading Spaces Home Free. I loved the italian plaster job they did and it would be perfect for that room. Did I mention the 6" slope in the floor?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on May 19, 2004 12:29 PM ]
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logansdad
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posted on May 19, 2004 12:34:16 PM new
Let's turn the tables on this. How you respond to this example.
You were hurt in a car accident and were taken to the hospital. The doctor and nurses on duty just so happened to be gay and you were straight. The staff then refused to treat you because of your sexual orientation or your personal beliefs about homosexuality.
I think you would be outraged by this.
If I am not mistaken, don't all doctors and nurses live by the hippocratic oath. Doesn't the oath state they treat the problem and not the patient. When did all these personal and religious beliefs came into play when a doctor decides whether or not to treat a patient?
Re-defeat Bush
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Linda_K
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posted on May 19, 2004 01:25:19 PM new
fenix - color scheme
which is???
20' yep that's one high ceiling alright. I do like the sound of the Italian plaster though...can you do that yourself? What about windows.....lots? big? huge? a few?
4 whole cabinets well with a 5' tall frame doesn't sound like you need to store much food anyway. [trying to look at the good side] Plus it's less to keep clean.
speaking of food....have you found out how your 'visitors' were getting in? Hopefully you have.
6" slope in the floor...oh boy. Well - just don't play a game of marbles with anyone and maybe no one will notice. Is it something that has to be fixed...or it will get worse? I hope not. I've had a lot of stress dealing with a whole house foundation problem....expensive, a mess, and if the fishing's good around here...no one wants to work.  So it took FOREVER to get it repaired.
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logansdad - Who were you addressing your question to? Me?
Re-elect President Bush!!
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yeager
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posted on May 19, 2004 02:13:13 PM new
Don't worry Linda, I think that our clear thinking governor Jennifer Granholm (D) will veto it.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 02:16:13 PM new
Basically the colors are going to be burgandy, plum and cream..
I have two windows in the room I use as an office but the bottom of the sill is 10" feet up so they don't get opened much. The main room is long and narrow but the back wall is mainly windows which have steps leading up to them to climb out into the "porch" (aka concrete box).
The kitchen will be a challenge (there is nothing that can be done unless I want to pour a leveling layer of concrete which I have no desire to do. As for the Italian plaster, if they can do it on TV in one day I figure I can knock with a little practice. The cabinet thing is a pain since with my lack of height I can only access half the cabinet anyway and there is no lower cabinet per see for pots and pans, as for counter space... pretty much non existant so I need to pick up a couple of those butcher block free standing pieces... preferably ones without wheels
I usually love to cook but with this kitchen I eat out or carry out way too much (there are something like 70 restaurants within a 15 minute walk of me and nearly all of them are fanatastic). What I save on restaurant food will more than cove rthe cost of fixing up the kitchen, I just need to find time and motivation.
The best part about this place is how well insulated it is. When we had that week of high 90's I had no idea how hot it was until I went outside. No AC and no need for it. That's going to save me a fortune this summer.
No clue on where the mice came from and since my mouser was catnapped on Mothers Day I have no one to catch them for me now  but I only saw them after he caught them so maybe they will stay hidden. My other cat could not care less about them.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Libra63
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posted on May 19, 2004 04:04:56 PM new
logansdad - You were hurt in a car accident and were taken to the hospital. The doctor and nurses on duty just so happened to be gay and you were straight. The staff then refused to treat you because of your sexual orientation or your personal beliefs about homosexuality.
Now that was a truly stupid statement. Read what you wrote and tell me how I can tell the employees are gay and how can they tell I am straight. Do they have it tattoo'd on their foreheads or maybe I do. Personally I have no belief about homosexuality. To each his own.
Ok fenix did you read what I answered. I guess you can't face up to the answer as I have proven other than my ability for you to believe me posted what my ethics were when I was working and every other Registered Radiologic Technologist that is working. No need to answer..
Back to the loft....Sounds like a great place
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 04:49:33 PM new
LIbra - I wote this long rambling response but I feel the need to edit.
Get of the horse before you hurt yourself. Your response was, as usual, miopic and irreleventt and in light of your previous post I decided to be charitable, not say so and let you entertain yourself.
The code of ethics of ARRT has approx 0 standing when placed against a state law giving shelter and protection to those who allow personal opinions to override professional obligations.
As for the loft - It really is great and I really do need to start making my mark on it - hopefully after the new site launches I will have the time (and maybe the money to hire someone to come in with scaffolding : ) for the painting).
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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fenix03
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posted on May 19, 2004 05:03:22 PM new
oh yeah... my mother is an ARRT member and actually works part time as a tech at one of her old hospitals thanks to reitrement boredom setting in.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Libra63
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posted on May 19, 2004 05:52:13 PM new
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it
Why don't you have common sense. You are stupid, and if you had common sense you should have realized what is true and what isn't. I hope that she enjoys being a Rad Tech and working her butt off. I can't believe you said the things you did and that I wouldn't do what my profession wanted me to do. Maybe your mother is different than I am but I do know the laws and I will abide by them....By the way you posted she must not abide by those ethics because if she did you wouldn't have said what you said. I hope she practices what the profession is all about.
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logansdad
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posted on May 19, 2004 08:00:50 PM new
Linda, my post was in response to no one. I was mearly asking a question.
Libra: Read what you wrote and tell me how I can tell the employees are gay and how can they tell I am straight. Do they have it tattoo'd on their foreheads or maybe I do.
First explain to me how the biggoted politicians in Michigan know a person is gay or not. Will they ask the patient before treating them? Will they assume a feminent male is gay or a butch female is a lesbian?
My example was a stupid as the proposed law in the opening post, but what would you do if there was a law that said it was OK for gays to discriminate against straight people?
My point with the question I posted was not to figure out who is straight or gay, but turn the tables and see how straight people would react if they were denied service/treatment by a gay person. If this law is passed it will open the way for all kinds of other excuses for people not to preform the duties of their profession.
If the same law was written but instead of denying treatment to gays, they inserted denying treatment to women or blacks, people would be screaming the law is sexist or racist. It is this kind of treatment that only makes gays and lesbians fight harder for their cause - to obtain equal treatment.
Nobody seemed to answer the part about the hippocratic oath. Aren't doctors supposed to treat what ails people regardless of who the person is?
Re-defeat Bush
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