I need you to answer some question for me. I am getting lost in your various stages of your point of view. I will number them for you so everyone will be clear on your answers. OK?
1. What makes you such an authority on gay issues?
2. When you use the word FURTHER to describe the decline in traditional marriage, can you please explain what was the ORIGINAL cause of it?
3. Are you straight, and if so, did you choose to be straight? That should very easily be a yes or no answer.
4. You are concerned about traditional marriage in America. Why do you use statical information gathered from other countries including ones from Europe when their cultures are totally different than our in the first place?
5. Are you aware the highest divorce rate in the USA was in 1946? Yes 1946, no typo here. This was between straight couples.
6. Are you aware that about 50 percent of the new cases of all HIV cases are involving those under 25 years old, both straight and gay?
7. Are you saying that if gays are not allowed to marry, then the spread of HIV would stop?
8. In your mind, is HIV a "gay only" disease?
9. You don't have to answer this one if you don't want to. Were you the schoolyard bully, or the Queen Bee in the cell block?
Linda, Please to answer questions 1 - 8 so I and others will have a better understanding of the position of You and Your People!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
There is no real reason for you to bring in the Bible here. You are only adding to my argument that the religious fanatics and nuts are trying to control others. If you read early on in this thread, you would have read this.
Also, it is interrupted differently by many. For you to say the Bible says blah blah blah and for you to believe that everyone should think like you would make you a bigot. This is no offense to you, but only my opinion.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 23, 2004 09:46:00 PM new
You all are bouncing around without covering the real issue.
Homosexuals are going to be with us, of that there is no doubt. However, what the SJC in mass did was open a horrific door, one that has to be shut. Why, you may ask? It's simple:
All this is doing is saying that you do not need a man and a woman to raise children. that 2 men or 2 women will do the same, if not better, then a heterosexual couple. That is wrong. Studies have shown time and again that children need father and a mother, not 2 fathers or 2 mothers. this decision, based on foreign laws, is leading us down a path of destruction.
As to the Bible verses cheryl quoted, it is easy to take Old Testament quotes and twist them to meet your needs. However, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. If you want to take OT quotes, please use them in the context in which they were designed to be read.
Also, this decision will lead us down paths we should not explore. I would guess that soon some liberal people are going to want to be able to marry anyone of any sex they want. then, you will be able to have multiple partners (polygamy). Then, who knows who, or what, you will be able to marry.
While I disagree completely with the homosexual lifestyle, I do think that they should be able to get some sort of basic coverages. But I do not, and will not, ever agree that they should be allowed to marry in the traditional sense.
BTW, the Federal marriage amendment, as it is worded now, decrees that marriage is between a man and a woman. However, it allows for states rights as well: the states will be able to create laws for homosexuals, most likely using some sort of civil unions.
And comparing the homosexual lifestyle to what the Negro's went through in this country is totally absurd. Negro's cannot choose their skin color: homosexuals can choose weather or not to be homosexual.
In Christ,
Rick
Genesis 1:1
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on May 23, 2004 10:21:48 PM new"Studies have shown time and again that children need father and a mother, not 2 fathers or 2 mothers. this decision, based on foreign laws, is leading us down a path of destruction."
posted on May 23, 2004 10:29:28 PM new"And comparing the homosexual lifestyle to what the Negro's went through in this country is totally absurd. Negro's cannot choose their skin color: homosexuals can choose weather or not to be homosexual."
posted on May 23, 2004 10:33:29 PM new
Christian Coffee says,
homosexuals can choose weather or not to be homosexual.
Here is YOUR question. Did you choose to be straight? I am thinking that you are, based on your statement.
Also, there is a connection with the gay civil rights issue and the black civil rights issue. Since about the 1600's blacks were first taken from Africa and brought to this land and used as slaves up to 1865, when they were freed. During that time, they were ALWAYS BLACK. The only reason that they were used is that the people of this country WERE TAUGHT to use them and TAUGHT TO HATE THEM. Prior to seeing the first Blacks from Africa, most of the people in this country had never seen a person of African decent. That would be a fair statement in the fact most people never traveled more than 25 miles from their home at the time. I am sure that you know, there were no European slaves. This is because we can't hate people that are like us, only those that different from us. That is why there is still so much racism in the US today.
My point is, even though these slaves WERE ALWAYS BLACK, it was OK to use them as slaves. Why is this? The society at the time felt it was an acceptable policy. In the fact there has always been gay men and women and always will be, will it be OK in your mind to treat them differently?
America society felt it was acceptable to enact Jim Crow laws to prevent Blacks from taking part in society. Everything was done to keep them in their place. This including owning property, preventing them from voting, eating in white only restaurants, riding in the front of the bus, marrying whites and the list could go on and on and on. Why? Because American society thought is was good for the country.
Please don't quote the Bible. Many people don't use the Bible or practice Christianity. The Bible applies to only those people who wish to follow it. Everybody has the right to follow which religion if any, they wish.
Also, the term Negro is somewhat outdated by today's standards.
Also, if you think that there aren't not gay men and women that go to church, then you are very wrong. They follow the same Bible that you do, but something still causes to want to be sexually interactive with members of their own sex. They are just as strong a Christian as you. What do you think causes them to feel this way?
My question to you still stands. Did you choose to be straight? If you are straight, how did you determine that? If you will please. I will be waiting for your answer. Of course you don't have to answer this, but failing to do so tells much about you.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 23, 2004 11:01:27 PM new
Christian Coffee says,
Also, this decision will lead us down paths we should not explore. I would guess that soon some liberal people are going to want to be able to marry anyone of any sex they want. then, you will be able to have multiple partners (polygamy). Then, who knows who, or what, you will be able to marry.
That sort of reminds me of,...."The coloreds are trying to take over". Isn't that what white America said for several decades? Now, when a person hears that statement, it usually is coming from a lesser educated or bigoted older white person who is living in yesteryear.
In certain Middle Eastern countries, men have several wives. Is the God of their world different from the God of your world?
Here is a term for you. Non Sequitur
It simply means, An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 23, 2004 11:21:43 PM newLinda, I need you to answer some question for me. I am getting lost in your various stages of your point of view.
It's not my job to meet your needs, yeager. And I'm sorry if you are confused. I'll simplify it for you.....
You are taking a strong position on this issue. When you do this, you should have some backing for your position (unless you are a bully). When you fail to do this, your accountability falls faster than Dubya's popularity in the polls. I believe that you are terribly afraid to answer questions that would allow others to see how weak your position is.
BTW, according to an ABC news poll, the gay marriage issue is number 14 on the list of important things.
Linda, are you afraid of something? Me and my people want to know.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 24, 2004 06:20:56 AM new
logansdad - Was this gay marriage issue supposed to be about gays having the same 'rights' under our laws....or do you now admit it's really about *changing* the whole structure of what the term marriage has always meant.
Linda, it has always been about equal rights and acceptance. I do not understand where you are trying to say it has ben about changing "the marriage structure" unless you mean changing marriage - ie one man one woman to two men two women.
posted on May 24, 2004 06:33:50 AM new
CC:
All this is doing is saying that you do not need a man and a woman to raise children. that 2 men or 2 women will do the same, if not better, then a heterosexual couple. That is wrong. Studies have shown time and again that children need father and a mother, not 2 fathers or 2 mothers. this decision, based on foreign laws, is leading us down a path of destruction.
I think you should be drinking some decaf coffee. You don't need a man and a woman to raise a child. There a many single parent households in this country today - why because of divorce. What children need is a loving and nuturing home environment. A child can get that from one parent, two parents, relatives, grandparents or siblings.
There are many so-called parents out there that abuse their children. I guess you would prefer those children stay in a abusive situation simply because the child needs to be raised by a man and a woman.
As to the Bible verses cheryl quoted, it is easy to take Old Testament quotes and twist them to meet your needs. However, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. If you want to take OT quotes, please use them in the context in which they were designed to be read.
If you want to use religion for your basis of argument, then you better explain how priests are allowed to abuse and molest children and then also condem homosexuals as sinners. If God supposedly created everything, then he created straights and gays as well. Doesn't the bible say "do unto others as you would have done unto you". If you would like to be discriminated against, told you are inferior, told you will burn in hell because you are different, I would be happy to show you.
posted on May 24, 2004 06:47:30 AM new
People have brought up the term "the gay agenda". That term has been around since the 60's when gays first starting coming out of the closet publicly.
What is the agenda of the straight people? Is it to promote the superiority of their lifetsyle? Is it to hinder anybody in the minority that has different views from them?
posted on May 24, 2004 09:21:52 AM new
The Pope came out against gay marriage, and wants the 'defense of traditional marriage' or something like that........ (not that I care what he says, but just had to add that )
posted on May 24, 2004 09:28:34 AM new
It can be nothing but a form of bigotry to deny marriage to those who are not heterosexual. The fact that politicians have supported that bigotry does not change the nature of the belief. I would rather think that by choosing not to support same sex marriage that Kerry is doing what may be politically expedient than believe that he really believes in such a bigoted position. Unlike Bush, he has supported the rights of gays by proposing the civil union option. And as I have pointed out before, he opposes the amendment of the constitution.
posted on May 24, 2004 09:29:42 AM new
The Pope came out against gay marriage, and wants the 'defense of traditional marriage' or something like that........
The Pope has his opinions just like the politicians and the rest of the nation. However, before the Catholic Church starts to criticize others, it first needs to take care of its own problems - namely the scandal of priests abusing children.
Re-defeat Bush
[ edited by logansdad on May 24, 2004 09:35 AM ]
posted on May 24, 2004 10:53:35 AM new
ya know, I was talking to my father yesterday about the priest abusing children.
And we both agreed (our opinion only) that those priests were PEDOPHILES, and that the majority of priests in the Church are not.
They were pedophiles the same as Joe Smith who is a pedophile. And should be treated and punished as such.
You have brought up so many good points here. It takes 1 loving and caring person to raise a child. Ideally, the model 2 parent family would be great, but that is not always the case. There is no real evidence that a gay or lesbian couple can't raise a emotionally healthy and balanced child.
There are many situations where the grandparents, or the sole grandparent is raising the child. These include situations where the parents have lost custody of the children for child abuse, or the parents have abandoned the children, or the parents have died. These children, minus the emotional scars of their personal situations, will be better off than being abused or left to the revolving door of foster care homes.
It also burns my ass when these so called Christian leaders condemn the gay and lesbian population for their "chosen lifestyle" and then molest young boys. I wonder what caused them to do that. Was it God, or was it THEIR CHOICE? Another slap in the face of the gay and lesbian population is that the church which is a tax exempt organization pays millions and millions of dollars to abuse victims.
Now lets see, we have an organization that is fully tax exempt from the IRS. An organization whose members molests and rapes young boys. An organization that does it's best to cover up these HORRIFIC ACTIONS. And, an organization that works very hard to promote SO CALLED FAMILY VALUES in the guise of preventing gay marriage. Now, how sick is that?
THEY, IN THE CHURCH HAVE NOTHING TO BASE THEIR POSITION ON! PERIOD!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 24, 2004 01:14:21 PM new
Clapping! So very well said Yeager. The hypocrisy from leaders in this day & age is unreal. And I also agree that reading posts like ChristianCoffee's, to me, is the ultimate hypocrisy because it's all done in the name of God. For all we know Jesus himself might have been gay. Are there any verses in the Bible that say otherwise? Or would a thought like this be the most horrible thing imaginable?
posted on May 24, 2004 03:57:07 PM new
NearTheSea - Linda.... 'your people' who are your people?
Not real sure, but at this point I'm beginning to think 'my people' include anyone who doesn't agree with yeager.
----------------------
As to the studies on children there are many that show children raised with a mother and a father fair better in life than those raised by either just one parent, by a parent and a 'live in' partner, etc. They say they are more balanced, secure and happy than the other groups.
posted on May 24, 2004 04:03:27 PM new
helen says: It can be nothing but a form of bigotry to deny marriage to those who are not heterosexual.
And John Kerry IS against gay marriage!!!
Couldn't possibly be because he's a Catholic who attends church weekly though and even quotes the Bible in public. Boy I'm sure that turns many off here to show their distain for both Catholic priests and those who are also against gay marriage.
Just terrible that kerry supports traditional marriage. lol
posted on May 24, 2004 04:49:17 PM new
Horrific actions, YES, pedophilia is horrific.
Linda, I just may be one of 'your people'
I was just reading Kerrys bio, and it says he is Catholic and attends some parish in Mass. , it mentioned he has 2 daughters, and married to Theresa Heinz Kerry, but doesn't say if the daughters are from his first or second marriage?
posted on May 24, 2004 05:46:43 PM new
NearTheSea - Better be careful [possibly being one of 'my people' ] .....looks like anything 'traditional' is loathed around here....even marriage - even though there are more married people in the US than gays.
But onto kerry....the Catholic alter boy and all.....he had two daughters by his first wife - a marriage he tried to have annuled - [story below - just for you]. As unstable as she was....he didn't let it hold back his political ambitions.
Never could figure out how Catholics who marry, have children and then years later rather than divorce - seek to have the marriage annuled.....which basically means it never took place.
And mrs. kerry had three sons by Senator John Heinz....who introduced kerry and heinz-kerry.
They had no children from their marriage. She's been quoted as saying that's why she had kerry sign the pre-nup....to protect her son's inheritance.
posted on May 24, 2004 06:47:57 PM new
Kraft:
For all we know Jesus himself might have been gay. Are there any verses in the Bible that say otherwise? Or would a thought like this be the most horrible thing imaginable?
I was thinking about this earlier today not so much thinking what if Jesus was gay, but rather what Jesus would do if he came across gays. I know for sure he would not tie them to a fence in the middle of nowhere, beat the **** out of them and leave them for dead.
posted on May 24, 2004 06:59:11 PM new
For all we know Jesus himself might have been gay. Are there any verses in the Bible that say otherwise? Or would a thought like this be the most horrible thing imaginable?
__________________________________________
Yes there are verses in the Bible, 'A man shall not lie with another man' could be one
I doubt Jesus was gay, according to the Bible, he was not married, he was without sin, so, I doubt very much He was gay
__________________________________________
I was thinking about this earlier today not so much thinking what if Jesus was gay, but rather what Jesus would do if he came across gays. I know for sure he would not tie them to a fence in the middle of nowhere, beat the **** out of them and leave them for dead.
__________________________________________
No, Jesus would not beat the **** out of one, and leave them for dead, and I don't know what he would say. What did Jesus say to Mary Magdellan, as she was a prostitute? She did not continue to be one, after she started following him.
posted on May 24, 2004 07:02:54 PM new
Linda: Boy I'm sure that turns many off here to show their disdain for both Catholic priests and those who are also against gay marriage.
Linda, just to make a few things clear. I was brought up Catholic - went to Catholic grade school and high school. My parents took me to church every week for 18 years. I do not despise Catholic priests. Rather I find it hypocritical of them to be preaching above love and how Jesus loved everyone - the sinners, the leperds. No matter what you did Jesus would always be there for you and love you. Then in the next breath condemning homosexuality and how it goes against God's way.
Once I accepted my homosexuality, I stopped going to Church because of the hyprocrisy of the Catholic Church. I was further outraged by the Pope saying he is against gay marriages but can't even control the priests under his guidance.
The same can be said of politicians. As I stated before 99% of the are against gay marriages because it goes against the traditional marriage values/morals. How dare they say that when cheating and divorce go against traditional marriage values. When was the last time you heard a politician condone cheating or divorce. Hey but those are OK. After all if Clinton can get away with it, it must be fine for the rest of America.
About anullment in the Catholic church, I do not think (course things change, and I could be wrong) but I don't think they grant annullments ESPESCIALLY after you've had not 1 but 2 children in the marriage
It USED to be that you could have a marriage annulled if you had not consumated the marriage, In other words, had sex, according to the Catholic Church. But then, who knows, maybe you can now??
Divorce is a definite NO WAY even today in the Church (doesn't stop anyone though )
As to the studies on children there are many that show children raised with a mother and a father fair better in life than those raised by either just one parent, by a parent and a 'live in' partner, etc. They say they are more balanced, secure and happy than the other groups.
Don't believe it??? Won't surprise me one bit.
I take all studies with a grain of salt. Depending on who funds these studies, you can get any type of result you want.
Study A: too much coffee is no good for you.
Study B: Drink a cup of coffee a day if you want to reduce your chance of a heart attack.
posted on May 24, 2004 07:38:12 PM new
Linda, are you going to dispute these facts:
Facts about kids with gay and lesbian parents
There are between 6-10 million daughters and sons of lesbian, gay and bisexual parents in the United States.
Daughters and sons of lesbian, gay and bisexual parents have the same incidence of heterosexuality as the general population.
Most "problems" that daughters and sons of lesbian, gay and bisexual parents are said to have, actually stem from going through a divorce, and not our parents' sexual orientation.
There is no evidence that we face any more difficulties socializing in school than children of straight parents.
We are exposed to more people of the opposite sex than many kids of straight parents. Even when we are not, there is no evidence to suggest that it harms us.
We are more open-minded about a wide variety of things than people with straight parents.
Daughters of lesbians have higher self-esteem than daughters of straight women. Sons are more caring and less aggressive.
If we ourselves are lesbian, gay or bisexual, we are likely much better off than lesbian, gay and bisexual children of straight parents.
There is absolutely no evidence that children are psychologically or physically harmed by having gay, lesbian or bisexual parents. There is plenty of evidence that we are not.
COLAGE (Children of Lesbians and Gays Everywhere) is the only national organization for the daughters and sons of lesbian, gay and bisexual and transgender parents.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
In the words from Cher:
We’re gonna love one another ’til morning comes
Sweet salvation for what we’ve done
Give up resisting one by one one by one
Another good point on the results of studies. Who funded them if the first thing anyone should look at when taking them into account. Regardless of what type of study, most are slanted if not done by a disinterested third party.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
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