posted on May 30, 2004 09:18:02 AM newIn our society once one falls through the cracks there is no safety net, just a freefall to rock bottom.
Dave, if the federal government allocated a trillion dollars to the homeless and put them up in hugh hefners mansion to live as they wanted, the behavior would be the same. Why? Because they have fallen into dysfunction. Charity starts at home, inside and its a long way back for many of these homeless veterans.
Kiara, I am glad you've gotten to the point where you've gotten your life together or whatever. I hold no grudge against you; I just think your criticisms are false and unproductive. We each calls em as we see's em.
In the summer of 1968, Les Brown walked the leafy streets of Wakefield, Que., pondering a tough question: to fight in Vietnam or remain in the security of Canada. Only months earlier, he had been living in suburban Los Angeles and, like many other children of Canadians working in the United States, facing the possibility of being drafted. His mother, Joy, wanted him to stay in Canada, where he was working on a farm, but he missed his friends and returned. A year later, Brown was slogging through the jungles of Vietnam with an M-16 assault rifle.
Thousands of Canadians fought in Vietnam between 1964 and 1973, and some never returned. Those that did often still wake up in a cold sweat. "I am seeing a psychiatrist to help me work through my memories,' says Brown, 51, who now lives near Ottawa and has just published a book, There It Is: A Canadian in the Vietnam War.
Many other Canadians served willingly. Lee Hitchins, 55, and two high-school buddies in Smiths Falls, Ont, travelled to Buffalo, N.Y., in 1963 and enlisted in the U.S. navy. "The Communists were bad and we good," recalls Hitchins. In 1965, Hitchins was assigned to a destroyer off the Vietnam coast for an eight- month tour. He returned to Smiths Falls in 1972-reluctant to talk much about his experiences. "It was worse coming back to Canada," says Hitchins. "All we heard about were the draft dodgers who came up here”.
Exactly how many Canadians served in Vietnam is difficult to determine. Hitchins, who is president of the Canadian Vietnam Veterans-Ottawa, estimates the number at 30,000 to 40,000. The confusion exists because Canadians drafted while they were living in the United States show up in records as Americans. But Hitchins says that, so far, more than 100 dead soldiers listed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington have officially been confirmed as Canadian. Their names also appear on a Canadian memorial in a park in Windsor-just across the Detroit River from the United States.
posted on May 30, 2004 09:24:03 AM new
Helen your whole #3 post was wrong. I knew a nice gentleman that lived in a refrigerator box 12 months a year. When that one got bad the appliance store gave him another one. He did have a choice but opted to live like that. Northern Wisconsin gets mighty cold and that is where he chose to live.
Veterans do get Medical Help but of course it doesn't come to them they have to want it nobody is going to bring it to them.
Homeless shelters in our town are okay. Some live there year around but others only choose to live their in the Winter Months. Of course if they live there they have have their chores to do. This shelter also provides food to the homeless and the needy along with the Salvation Army. During the winter months there is also another program INNS that open churches for the homeless to have a good evening meal and sleep. No one is left outside. We are not talking only Veterans but everyone who is homeless. It is up to the individual cities to take care of their homeless. I want you to know I do feel bad for them, not sorry as some choose to live that way. I don't think any of us really know the feelings of a homeless person but most of us try. We have very active war vietnam veterans also who peridiocally have rallys in our city park. To keep us aware that they are still searching for their POW's MIA's I honestly think nobody is left behind. We also have a low income building that once was a hotel for undisplaced or homeless of course it requires fees to live there.
Now remember there are cities that have ordinances that don't allow people to sleep on the street. Las Vegas for one, but they can sleep on the steps of the federal building and boy was I surprised to see the amount that slept there. You would think in a city with all those places of employment that some of them could get jobs. Question do you think they really want one.
Do you think it is easier to panhandle than work. Sure. I think in NYC panhandling runs rampid. Reading a story about people walking up to other people asking for bus fare. Think about it I am sure they make a lot more than I do on retirement doing that.
It happened in front of our apartment when we were moving. A young girl stopped and asked our moving people for 15 cents so she could make a phone call. He didn't have change so she asked for a dollar. He gave it to her and she drove away.
posted on May 30, 2004 09:42:28 AM new
Libra, Sometimes I read your posts and wonder if you are serious or not. I don't have an answer that you would appreciate or understand.
posted on May 30, 2004 09:44:03 AM newKiara, I am glad you've gotten to the point where you've gotten your life together or whatever.
Nero, I don't know where that comes from. I doubt anyone ever gets their life totally together. It would be foolish for anyone to even think that about themselves because they don't know what's ahead. But being aware of what is happening in the world gives some of us an edge over others. If some prefer to bury their heads in the sand or say that certain things don't affect them that's fine if they want to live that way, I don't.
I just think your criticisms are false and unproductive.
That may be the problem here. Just because I bring something to the attention of others it doesn't mean that I'm being critical or negative and I'm sorry if you can't see the difference. How is it unproductive to be aware of certain issues?
If there was an easy solution for some of the things happening in this world, things would constantly be getting better. As it stands, there is way too much government bureaucracy and many are falling through the cracks.
posted on May 30, 2004 09:58:22 AM new
Libra, they've done stories on that. Panhandling in NYC. Some make upwards of 200.00 a day. Sure beats trying to pay the rent from working in McDonalds! lol.
Linda, you have some nerve posting something negative about the Canadian army!
How dare you!! But you have to see it for what it is. They just want to take a day set aside to honor veterans - and rip it apart with their silly unproductive negative thoughts by tagging this on it. Meanwhile, they probably dont acutally do squat about helping anything or anybody.
You know with all the bs about the military going on, I read the other day about a group of soliders who are having school supplies flown in and giving them to the Iraqi Children. It was nice to see a smile on the kids and soldiers faces for a change. Not one mention of that program here. God forbid there should be some-ANY-good talked or brought into the stream of consciousness by these people; it tumbles THEIR whole stinking miserable apple cart.
Yuck. How pathetic.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:00:09 AM new "TODAY your own country can't defend itself. That's a SERIOUS PROBLEM - if you really want a SERIOUS problem to worry about in this day and age."
That's a problem that we should think about as we are stretched so thin in Iraq. Looks like a draft is the only answer.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:22:39 AM new
Maybe Helen you don't understand when someone post truths you can't understand. What don't you understand? Veterans do get medical help but it doesn't come to them they have to go get it. Is that to hard to comprehend? There are homeless people that do not want to work is that to hard to comprehend. It is easier to panhandle than work.
Read this young mans choice.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/705223/posts
Many veterans do not have a choice as some of their disabilities are such that they can't but they do get a monthly paycheck and most apartments complexes have low income apartments that all is required is 30% of their monthly income with utilities paid. Salvation Army gives free food for people who can't afford it. We have soup kitchens. Let's say they get $1,000 a month. Rent $300.00, leaves $700.00 to live on. Now I know that is not a lot but they would still have a roof over their head where it is warm and dry. Also St. Vincent's does give furniture free, usually a dresser and a bed, along with a couple of changes of clothes. I don't understand
what you can't comprehend...
I am a lot more serious than you think I am. How can you tell by my posting how serious I am. I post facts and by that you say I am not serious.
I do stop and when someone I feel needs that extra dollar I will give it to them. My husband does the same. During the holidays I never pass a red kettle where I always put in a dollar or more. What do you think about a Homeless vet leaning on the USPS mail box asking for money and when he gets it buys a lottery ticket.
Kiara-As it stands, there is way too much government bureaucracy and many are falling through the cracks.
In my opinion Yes, and it is not going to get any better. I feel that the older generation is more sympathetic than the younger generation as with the high cost of living I will render a guess that there isn't a lot of donations given by them soon it will also be by the older generation as their money is dwindling away. Soon we will all be out priced and there is no turning back.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:27:04 AM new
neroter - well...leave it to me to to defend America
And yes...I've posted articles when I've seen good things mentioned in Iraq - especially something good our soldiers are going for their people - and I get laughed at and get more snide remarks about it....almost like they just can't believe one good thing could possibly be going on over there.
----------------------
I also want to mention that the majority of our homeless vets are Vietnam vets - while a few are from conflicts since then.
When these negative statements are made about...no one points out that maybe these same vets haven't always been in this 'homeless' situation since the day they got home from serving.
On top of that...stats do show that the majority of those same homeless vets
didn't see combat in Vietnam. In addition....45% of them are mentally ill.....almost 70% are drug/alcohol dependent.
Another point to is that when mentioning stats that refer to our Vets....we need to keep in mind the % of those who are homeless, mentally ill and drug/alcohol dependent who NEVER were in our Armed Forces. Put's things more into prospective I believe.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:31:33 AM new
neroter12-I agree it beats working at Mc Donalds but panhandling does not help your self esteem. Some make that $200.00 in 4 hours. It is even better than doing eBay.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:39:10 AM new
you guys are pathetic,these people are in trouble because they cant cope with their situatuon,like dave said,falling thru the cracks.
just to cite a case of 1k and 300 for rent and then go about their business with 700??
if they know all that,they wont be homeless.how much does it cost to support their habit??/
why dont you guys go back to listing your postcards and dishes and vases.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 30, 2004 10:43:05 AM newneroter - well...leave it to me to to defend America
No, linda...when you want to neglect problems because discussion of such problems would make our country "look bad" you are NOT defending America or supporting our troops.
Libra, People with normally functioning brains don't want to live in a refrigerator box, sh!t in the bushes and bathe in the creek when the temp is below freezing. Do you at least agree with that statement?
posted on May 30, 2004 10:43:38 AM new
Assuming the 67% of homeless who aren't vets belong on the streets as it is their choice.
That still leaves 33%, whether combat troops or non-combatants (support units)it is still a national disgrace whether these people are ill (mentally or physically) or not should not be an issue.
In this state (California) there are not ample facilities to care for these veterans through the VA and the private sector is no better.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:49:00 AM new
shopwhining - IF the Vets have been homeless for 30-35 years....no one is EVER going to be able to help them.
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No, linda...when you want to neglect problems because discussion of such problems would make our country "look bad" you are NOT defending America or supporting our troops.
Shaking my head here in TOTAL disbelief that you, of all people, would have the NERVE to say that to me. I'm the 'warmonger' according to you...remember? I'm the one who's family has served in the military. I'm the one who has a son currently serving in the Marines. And you think I'd say what I do....yes, in support of my country - very much unlike you - if I felt they were in anyway being mistreated - neglected? You're lost your mind helen.
posted on May 30, 2004 10:49:42 AM new
Linda, you fail to understand that Canada has concentrated more on peacekeeping than war and that's the attitude of the country. Some of you also seem to have missed the part where I said I'm aware that Canada has many problems too.
Meanwhile, they probably dont acutally do squat about helping anything or anybody.
Nero, I don't often do idle chat here but just so you know I have mentioned before that I've opened my home and my heart to children in need of a foster home and that may be the other end of the spectrum of the homeless adults. And that's just a small part of my life. When you come right down to it, most of us know very little about one another so please don't judge.
stopwhining, you hit the nail on the head. Some here are very pathetic because they have no reality of this world and it's obvious they've never crawled out of their little boxes just by the statements they make, whether it's about the homeless or the drug addicts or any other true situation.
posted on May 30, 2004 11:01:37 AM new
See when it starts getting heated in here Helen has to go out. Remember the thread when she had to leave because she had computer problems. Ya right.
No I don't agree with that statement - I did know that man personally and he did live in that box 12 months a year. He lived 20 miles from the nearest town but he did live by a resort on a lake. He did have relatives in that town 20 miles away. Now of his deficatting or bathing habits I did not know and it was none of my business. Also he did eat some at the resort. So Helen before you get so upset that you have to leave there are posters in here that do speak the truth.
Stopwhining - I don't list any of those products.
neroter12, that is an important story and in the grade school my granddaughter attends they did send things to afganahstan. I haven't read that in the paper but if you did why didn't you post it. That would have been something positive in this unusually negative round table. I tried to search that but couldn't find it.
posted on May 30, 2004 11:02:40 AM new
Kiara - Peacekeeping huh? Well...since you're military is almost bankrupt...guess that leaves no choice but to depend on another country, the USA, to defend you should the terrorists decided they don't like something your government is doing. Just like Spain...bow to what they demand of you...or else.
It wasn't your country that was attacked...and 3000 innocent civilians were murdered. Talk peace with the likes of binladen and all the other ME terrorists if YOU want. Don't tell me my country isn't taking care of it's own.....when yours can't even defend itself.
posted on May 30, 2004 11:19:04 AM new
Linda, Canada has had the largest peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and it's one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Canada also lost citizens during 9/11 and firefighters from Canada rushed in to help out.
I don't know why you miss the point that Canada is a peace loving country and not a war mongering one just because you prefer to think that way. You can attack me all you want just to bring the focus off the real issue here but it won't change anything at all.
The war in Iraq has the most injuries since Vietnam and now there are about 5000? men who have returned who will need the help of their government and their families so they can cope with their futures. Many families will not be able to devote the time or the money and they will not be prepared to deal with the toll it will take on them emotionally and financially and some of these soldiers will fall through the cracks and end up living on the streets. It's a sad reality and if Canada rushes into Iraq and fires a few more bullets it's not going to change that reality for these injured soldiers.
posted on May 30, 2004 11:34:36 AM new
I love hearing these stories of pan handler making $200 a day. What I think would be even more entertaining would be if I asked any of our naighborhood homeless how much they make? I can't believe it's all that much since at night they are not going home to a hotel or an apartment, they sauter on down to their storefront of choice for a few hours sleep before dawn comes. In fact there are only two or three I ever see pan-handling - most are just here and considered part of the neighborhood. I have never once seen anyone down here selling paper flowers. It's a lovely image but in three years of living downtown in a city considered to be the Homeless Shangrila because of it's climate I'll be damned if I have ever seen a sinlge one of our homeless commnunity out selling paper flowers.
As for all of these services that you have touted as being available in plenty for veterans, you might want to get in touch of some of their advocacy groups here because they are having a hard time finding them.
Once a year there is a big set up here in for veterans where doctors, dentists, barbers, mental health care workers, job counselors etc come together in a huge camp for veteran to come for a hot shower, some clean cloths and whatever medical, dental help can be rendered on site. For many of the homeless here it is the only help they can get all year. To get an appointment thru traditional services takes a phone and up to a six week wait. It takes ID which has often been lost or stolen and to get a replacement requires an address which they do not have. All the shelters and the like are filled to the brim.
The problem here is only getting worse as the beach citites are trying to force the homeless out so they relocate downtown but now downtown redevelopment is trying to push them out of this area as well.
Homeless in this country is a serious issue that needs serious solutions not self assuring platitudes of "Oh, they want to live like this". Get a grip.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on May 30, 2004 11:39 AM ]
posted on May 30, 2004 12:18:36 PM new
fenix, you posted the same words as I was typing them!!
You know what fenix, homelessness is a problem and nobody is denying that. But dont begrudge people who want to honor the fallen dead on this especially made day trimming it with this. Its a bullsh** thing to do.
ed to add: It means alot to the elderly veterans who are alive to have a day dedicated to them and their comrades. We dont get it because we have not been in war. Pick another weekend to rag about whats wrong with the veterans and current soliders/issues.
[ edited by neroter12 on May 30, 2004 12:26 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2004 12:27:49 PM new
Fennix the url I posted was for Philadelphia and I think panhandlers in NYC make much more than that. It is hard to phantom that that much can be made in a day but with the price of cigarettes, phones and bus fare and the number of people they encounter on the sidewalks of NYC I can see them doing that. Some cities are now passing an ordiance that panhandling is illegal.
The veterans do get health care when they need it and not just once a year. There is a clinic in our business district and all they do is go in and make their appointment and then keep it. It is not a walk in clinic. Great Lakes Navel Training Center has a great hospital where they to for treatment. I don't know if there is a free bus to there from here but I do know there is a free bus from some cities. I don't begruge veterans free medical care at least the ones that did serve in a war or conflict. The reason my husband pays is because the National guard Divisions from Wisconsin (32nd Division) never went to war, they were just on standby. The government has different levels of veterans service, he is a #7.
posted on May 30, 2004 12:38:26 PM new
Thanks to fenix for breathing some reality into this.
neroter12, you made it personal when you started making comments such as this:
Meanwhile, they probably dont acutally do squat about helping anything or anybody.
If you don't like the reality of this thread you're free to move on instead of dwelling on it. It's your choice, no one is making you post here. Maybe go out and tell the world to pick another day to deal with these issues.
posted on May 30, 2004 12:40:55 PM new
Nero - do't preach to me about this day. My grandfather is one of those fallen heros of conflict that are being remembered. I never knew him, he was killed overseas in WWII
What is a bullsh*it thing to do is to try to sweep the issue of the living vets under the rug in the name of those that are gone. How do you think those that have passed would react seeing the situation that those that that are living this life.
If you truly want to honor the dead, then respect and help those that they left behind.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 30, 2004 01:02:45 PM new
Fenix, its one day of the year and all you and the others want to do is focus on is other issues. It's for the veterans - you dont get that?? Its not for you or how you feel. It's THEIR day.
IT IS a bullsh** thing to do - and Kiara you are the bullsh** leader on these boards. You thrive on your own negativity and smear it around for everyone else to pick up. YOURE free to go unidle yourself.
posted on May 30, 2004 01:06:49 PM new
Linda, you're so funny! You post articles about Canada's military, yet you fail to understand why we need one in the first place. I'll give you a hint... because we border the U.S. Mexico also borders the U.S., but where's their military? When the NorthCom agreement was made, it was to step up security at the borders TO THE U.S. because it would be the U.S. that would be hit, not Canada or Mexico or the Caribbean.
Kiara, Helen, Stop & Dave - you're right on, as usual.
posted on May 30, 2004 01:18:00 PM new I'm the one who's family has served in the military. I'm the one who has a son currently serving in the Marines. And you think I'd say what I do....yes, in support of my country - very much unlike you - if I felt they were in anyway being mistreated - neglected? You're lost your mind helen.
No, I have called your position exactly right! Nearly all of us have family in the military, Linda. Why do you think you are so special? In fact, my husband has been in the military. You are simply unable to say anything that might shed some light on George Bush failure.
You do not support your troops if you neglect their financial needs and especially their health care when they are no longer able to work. That kind of support is basic and should be available without question. After you wrap yourself in a flag and praise the troops, you need to have regard for veterans issues too and for the troops salary which, by the way is appalling.
"The Bush Administration chronically under-funds VA health care. Instead of adding sufficient resources to a system desperately in need of them, President Bush has frozen whole classes out of the VA system. By the Bush Administration’s own estimate, their policies will exclude approximately 500,000 veterans from the VA healthcare system by 2005. President Bush also proposed increasing fees and co-payments in an effort to shift the burden for care onto the backs of veterans and drive an additional million veterans from the system."
Under George Bush, 280,000 veterans await their disability rating. In addition, some 108,000 other veterans are waiting to hear back on appeals of rating decisions.
