posted on June 24, 2004 10:30:28 PM new
I like this idea.....if kerry is going to raise the minimum wage....it really won't help the 'poor' I keep hearing about - who can't live on minimum wage earning. After all how can anyone survive or support a family on even the $7.00 an hour he's suggesting.
Maybe this is why:
taken from the WSJ -
The Wages of Politics
How many low-wage workers does John Kerry want to throw out of work?
Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT
John Kerry says he wants to raise the minimum wage to $7 an hour from $5.15, and his proposal has us thinking: Why stop there? Why not $10 an hour, or $20, or for that matter whatever a U.S. Senator makes?
If Mr. Kerry thinks government is obliged to guarantee Americans a certain level of income, why not simply elevate everyone at least into the middle class?
The reason, as Mr. Kerry well knows, is that wage floors aren't manna from heaven. Here on Earth, they tend to price certain kinds of labor out of the job market.
Businesses hire and pay workers what they think their skills are worth relative to other ways they can spend their capital. Force the price of labor too high, and suddenly businesses hire fewer workers, especially those at the lower rungs of the skill ladder.
This is one of the most settled propositions in economics, second only perhaps to free trade. Sure, Mr. Kerry has found a few economists willing to lend their credibility to his proposal, but even they don't deny that some people may lose their jobs--which is why they don't want to raise the minimum too high.
The debate is over how many poor people Mr. Kerry would throw out of work.
To answer this question, you first have to look at who earns the minimum wage. The Labor Department believes that 1.5% of the work force, or 2.1 million people, earn $5.15 an hour or less.
More than half of them are under the age of 25, meaning they are likely working a temporary or entry-level job.
Three-fifths are in the leisure and hospitality industry, which means in jobs that often come with tips in addition to wages.
Studies have also shown that most people earning the minimum wage are not poor--more than one-third live with a parent or relative. Only 15% are the sole breadwinner in a family with children.
posted on June 24, 2004 11:38:38 PM new
Linda - I agree that the minimum wage issue is a double edged sword. It is impossible to live today on minimum wage. in fact the minimum wage level is so low that it actually encourages people to stay on welfare as oppose to finding work since the wages are just enough to cut off assistance but not enough to actually replace the assistance.
The Leisure and Hospitality excuse is rather lame when you consider that they are including anyone involved in the industry, many of whom never or very rarely see tips.
I don't think it is outrageous to believe that a person that puts in 40 hour a day in the service of others should at the very least be able to afford a roof over their head and food in the refridgerator.
On the other hand, you are right, small businesses will not be able to afford the help they may need, they may even cut back on their labor force causig increased unemployment or will raise thei prices to compensate for higher costs causing an inflationary trend.
How about if we leave wages alone and put regional caps on rental units based on medium income of the area..... more people will be able to afford housing and you irritate a lot less people when you consider employers vs rental owners
I'm surprised that you didn't claim Kerry's plan was stlill another Democratic ploy to make people pay more taxes based on their increased income
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 24, 2004 11:40 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2004 11:53:26 PM new
LOL fenix - Somewhere, deep down in my soul, I think if you and I [on the opposite sides that we are] were "in charge" and allowed to negotiate the issues with one another, we might just reach a compromise on many of them.
How about if we leave wages alone and put regional caps on rental units based on medium income of the area
Only on a temporary basis...with a time limit set in advance. During which time we'll get the environmentalists out of the position of deciding what land can't be built on for whatever reasons. Opening up more available land...will bring the cost of housing down.
Plus I just have to do an ad for Bush. There is more home ownership under his administration than there ever has been. Partly because first time buyers can get help. Also... with the interest rates being so low for so long...this has also helped people who couldn't previously afford a house get one...and those who have one get a better mortage rate. whew...how was that?
I'm surprised that you didn't claim Kerry's plan was stlill another Democratic ploy to make people pay more taxes based on their increased income.
Well...I can restrain myself sometimes. lol But don't worry....with all he's promising our taxes WILL be raised...I have no doubt about that.
posted on June 25, 2004 12:27:07 AM new
I will tell you the place where I work 8 hours a week would not survive if they raised the minimum wage.
With the hours they are open and the amount of employees they need to have during the peak seasons will never be able to pay higher minimum wage. They will probably go out of business. Most of the employees are teenagers.
posted on June 25, 2004 01:22:01 AM new
::LOL fenix - Somewhere, deep down in my soul, I think if you and I [on the opposite sides that we are] were "in charge" and allowed to negotiate the issues with one another, we might just reach a compromise on many of them. ::
You might be right
:: Only on a temporary basis...with a time limit set in advance.::
Why? I'm talking about regional across the board caps based on say ... square footage and community income. History teaches us that as people make more money, they "move up" eventually going into home ownership which takes them out of the cap anyway as I was referring only to multi family units.
:: During which time we'll get the environmentalists out of the position of deciding what land can't be built on for whatever reasons. Opening up more available land...will bring the cost of housing down.::
I'll disagree strongly with you there. San Diego has one of the nations lowest vacancy rates at 4% (this does not include nearly 5000 units that are under construction or about to begin construction in the downtown area) national average is closer to 10 percent. Besides, the multi-family unit new starts were at 2 million last month so it doesn't really sound like builders are having too many problems finding space to build. The problem is not lack of land, it is ... capitalism. Investors do not want to build low income units. Takes too long to get a return on their investment. Most new starts these days are in the "luxury" apartment category.
::There is more home ownership under his administration than there ever has been. Partly because first time buyers can get help. Also ... with the interest rates being so low for so long...this has also helped people who couldn't previously afford a house get one...and those who have one get a better mortgage rate. Whew...how was that?::
It was very nice...but.... You failed to mention that mortgage defaults and repossession rates are also at the highest rates they have ever been. Because of the low rates people were seduced into purchasing home than they could not afford. Unless there are some substantial across the board wage increases housing prices are going to see a dramatic drop in the next couple years as more and more of those low interest mortgages are defaulted on.
::Well...I can restrain myself sometimes. lol But don't worry....with all he's promising our taxes WILL be raised...I have no doubt about that. ::
Well, lets be realistic Linda - With the past years military spending not to mention the expenses to come, there are going to be tax increases anyway. If our government does not start decreasing its debt load other countries are going to start devaluing the dollar. The result is going to be higher cost of the numerous good we purchase overseas with a lower return on items we sell overseas. We need to decrease our expenditures and increase our income and soon or we are going to see a full fledged recession in the next 5 years. We need to start spending our money more intelligently. And yes, we need to invest in our kids. We need to ... say ... put a moratorium on space until we are not ranked 12 of 20 major nations in literacy rates.
OK - went way out on a tangent there but you know what I mean
posted on June 25, 2004 04:14:23 AM new
The land issue is a hot one. Personally, I think opening up new land is an idea that is on the brink of selfishness. I'm sorry, but we've taken away the natural habitat of more animals and birds than we have the right to. There are plenty of homes already available and opening up more land has nothing at all to do with bringing the cost of housing down. Lower property taxes, lower water and sewer bills, lower builing maintenance bills and the like are what will being housing costs down. If you've ever owned rental property, you know what I'm talking about.
Environmentalists have every right to scream. Here's an example:
Lake Mohawk in my area. Lake Mohawk is now built up. Expensive homes, private beaches, golf course. OMG, the Canadian Geese have the nerve to nest and come to what was clearly their home before the wealthy arrived and ripped it up. OMG, they are just ruining the golf games of the lake's elite and are just a menace to the elite's children and stay-at-home wives who want to live it up on the beach. So, we'll round them up and behead them. That'll show them whose boss.
In the city of Cleveland there are tons of homes all boarded up. I don't know what the percentage of un-rented apartments or homes is, but I'm sure it's up there.
On the issue of raising taxes. Who do you suppose is going to pay for this war in Iraq? Certainly, it isn't coming out of Bush's estate. It has to come from taxes. IMO, it is Bush who is ultimately causing taxes to be risen not Kerry. We will always be the ones to pay for what our government spends. We have little say on how our money is spent. Would't you just love to have access to all that money? And, wouldn't you just love to spend it on whatever you and your pals think you should spend it on without having to worry about the consequences? If we, as private citizens, spent money at the same rate as this administration is we'd all be in bankruptcy. We'd lose our homes, our cars, our utilities. We'd be calling a cardboard box, home.
Most of the people working at minimum wage jobs are no longer teenagers. They are the displaced workers of this country. They are the former steel plant workers, the former auto plant workers, the workers from the closed manufacturing plants. Those are the jobs that have been created. Don't do the hip-hop-horray on the "jobs creation" issue. Going from $20 an hour to $5.25 an hour is not "advance in the job market". More and more I go to places like WalMart, K-Mart, Target. Some of the cashiers are my age. Some are older. But, hardly any are teenagers. Stock boys and baggers at the supermarket are looking older and older. Small business will adapt. They already don't offer insurance. McDonalds, WalMart, K-Mart, Target and the like are making tons of money off of people that cannot find work elsewhere. Step out into the real world and look around you. Things are not rosey. They are bleak and getting bleaker. 1,200 people are being laid off in Lorain, Ohio. The Ford plant is closing. Lorain is already beaten into the ground with plant closings.
Edited to add: BTW, most know that statistics mean nothing to me. I only believe what I see with my own eyes. Being a long time volunteer for D Kucinich, has opened my eyes up more than they've ever been open. Instead of relying on government stats, I urge people to look around and see with their own eyes. You may be surprised at what you find.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 25, 2004 04:15 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2004 05:59:09 AM new
linda, so I'm so surprised you're against raising the minimum wage! NOT!
Your cut and paste is so off base it would be laughable if it wasn't so nasty.
What DO you have against peolple less fortunate than you ...or is it just easier to pick on them from your lofty perch?
linda, I KNOW that you're in favor of slavery and bush will go along with THAT so why don't you start pushing congress for that!
You'd have so much fun linda, beating your slaves , and seeing how long they can work without food! Oh, linda, it would be heaven for you! And the economy..OH the economy would soar and life would be grand!
Linda, does it hurt...being all cold and shriveled up inside?
posted on June 25, 2004 05:59:21 AM new
I hire part time help on an as needed basis. Today and a couple days next week I need help to pack and move an estate I bought. As a part time employer I feel very humble that 2 young men are good enough to give me their time and work energy. One guy just received an Honorable Discharge after 4 years in the Marines, the other young man Graduated for college this year. Both are looking for full time jobs and have not been able to find one. I told these fine young men that I would pay them $10.00 per hour for their work and personally feel that is not enough. At the end of the job I will give them a bonus. Without these guys I would not be able to make money selling the estate items I bought. I believe that any person that hire help and pay them 5 or 6 dollars an hour while making money from their labor is nothing but a very greedy self-serving ass.
posted on June 25, 2004 06:43:26 AM new
bigpeepa, by being a decent, fair, kind human being you will undoubtably RUIN THE U.S. ECONOMY!
But I bet you sleep well and your heart's not all shriveled up.
posted on June 25, 2004 06:44:23 AM new
Great Point, Crowfarm...and as Dave said, "Republican plan to create jobs...lower the minimum wage to .20 per hour!!!"
Whether a family can survive on minimum wage is not their concern...just job numbers.
It's not fair that Bush can provide over a trillion dollars in tax cuts to the wealthiest people in America and we can't raise the minimum wage for the poorest people in America. These people are relying on such wages to support their families. And while they are struggling to do that they have to live under the other Bush plan which is, Pray you don't get sick.
posted on June 25, 2004 06:50:06 AM new
crowfarm, considering you edited out a previous thread saying you were leaving these boards... so that makes your words less than honorable... you don't even do waht you say...
However bigpeepa, you pay what you feel the job is worth, why should McDonalds pay someone just entering the job market $7/hr?
I know of very few places that pay skilled workers min wage... that is a fallacy of the left.
But raising min wage will continue the vicious circle of everything else going up in price...
raise the min wage up 25% and you will see food prices and rents go up 25% or more... so where would the benefit be?
Those on the right clamoring for change are refusing to change yourself... locations, skills... etc...
Lets take CA... how much is a "luxury aprtment" there fenix? $1,000/mo? more? If they are renting them, those people are not making min wage... very few people in CA make min wage.
West Virginia, you still can buy a home with land for less than $50,000 three br/2ba type... still most people there make more than min wage... no much more in some jobs but more.
Cheryl says those making $20/hr are now making $8/hr... well that happens and I feel the last administration had alot to do with that... all this book padding took place on the last watch, not this one, I feel wages were artificially inflated to allow the Demos a sense of good feeling... the Government was there to bail them out... well the government should not be there to bail them out... as you see now their scrambling to shed unneeded expenses...
Labor in this country is expensive, but with more labor available, where do people expect wages to go?
posted on June 25, 2004 06:57:19 AM new
lindatwelvepole says, "crowfarm, considering you edited out a previous thread saying you were leaving these boards... so that makes your words less than honorable... you don't even do waht you say..."
First, I didn't edit out any post so please quit lying about me .....where's the proof, Linda?
Second, I bet you're sorry I'm back.
Third, changing my mind doesn't make me "dishonorable"
And, only butt ignorant people never change their minds.
[ edited by crowfarm on Jun 25, 2004 06:58 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2004 07:03:31 AM new
No I guess it makes you a liar... but that is the ease of editing...
Oh and If being associated with Linda is trying to be an snip at me... that doesn't bother me... as I have said before, anyone above moron intelligence knows that Linda and I are not the same poster...
But that does leave you out doesn't it...
Also still hiding behind this id... that's nice...
You're a credit to no one...
So where are your comments on the subject at hand?
Seems you do exactly as you claim the right does... LOL, hypocrisy from the left as normal.
posted on June 25, 2004 07:16:41 AM new
I get so tired of correcting Linda's crap posted as fact.
The truth is that small business will be better off under the leadership of John Kerry.
We own a small business and in the entire community of small businesses in our area no small business employer pays minimum wage.
From John Kerry's site.
Investing in small business is good bang for the buck. For example, an additional $170 million investment could help make available $28 billion in long-term capital and equity for small businesses, creating 850,000 jobs annually. John Kerry will ensure that small businesses have all the federal support that they need to grow and thrive by;
HELPING MICRO-ENTERPRISES: About 60 percent of new businesses in New Hampshire are micro enterprises, defined as operations with five or fewer employees and revenues under $500,000. John Kerry would expand loans and equity for these smallest businesses.
ACCESSING CAPITAL: There has been a dramatic decline in venture capital funding – from $26 billion to $5 billion today – leaving many businesses without a source of equity financing. John Kerry will bridge the gap between entrepreneurs’ need for capital and traditional financing sources by increasing the federal government’s venture capital investments.
INCREASING LOANS: Financing that is affordable and easy to obtain is often difficult for small businesses to find. Bush has consistently shortchanged funding for loan programs. One of his proposals would have translated into the loss of almost 200,000 American small business jobs. John Kerry will expand loan programs to help more small businesses get off the ground.
posted on June 25, 2004 08:08:57 AM new
Gee, Helen, it sure got quiet after your post.
Can't you just see Lindatwelvepole scrambling around the internet trying to find another cut and paste to refute your post.
I don't know why she doesn't just say "it's a lie" it's so much easier for her than thinking.
Helen, someone accused me of not using my "real" ID. Since those posters never answer a direct question could you answer it for me? What in the world do they mean by a "real" ID? Isn't one ID as "real" as the next?
posted on June 25, 2004 09:04:05 AM new
What it means is that you're a coward, hiding behind a made up id for the simple pupose of trolling, not caring what people think of your posts because as soon as you have fisnished with this id, you can always switch to another and hide once again.
Why would anyone bother with Helen's post? facts are beyond her...
Twelvepole, You can't bother with it because you don't have the ability. Creep.
Crowfarm, Anyone who posts here with a brain is suspect. When they see someone who can formulate a logical answer and refute their crap, they suspect that you've had experience.
It takes a remarkable amount of skill and intelligence to be a good troll and assume more than one Identity. None of the characters here have that skill. I know them all.
posted on June 25, 2004 10:08:13 AM new
Check your history. They have been saying since the late 1800's that minimum wages or 8 hour work days will cost jobs.
Minimum wage increases have never cost jobs. The bottom line is that if the job needs to be staffed, it will be staffed no matter what the wages are.
posted on June 25, 2004 11:50:46 AM new
:: Lets take CA... how much is a "luxury aprtment" there fenix? $1,000/mo? more? If they are renting them, those people are not making min wage... very few people in CA make min wage. ::
That's the problem Twelve. The majority of units now being built are not accessible to low income families.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on June 25, 2004 02:05:13 PM new
We live in a society that is changing more and more rapidly.
To correct one misconception, The price of housing rarely goes down. Once people get an idea that their property is worth THIS much, they won't let go. The property will stagnate at that price until the erosion of the value fiat money makes the price viable.
Yes, look around you. We are getting more and more disparity between the haves and have-nots. In cities such as Carmel-by-the-Sea, California they have to obtain lower wage workers from towns 20 to 50 miles away. Anybody living there is well to do and minimum wage is a joke. They have to offer more than minimum wage to cover the cost of the commute.
Slavery is better than what some sweat shops offer their workers. The slave owner has an inherent interest in the health and well being of his investment. The sweat shop owner doesn't question if you never show up again, there are more people in line. The media fails to delineate between slave labor and kidnap labor. It is a disservice to the news consumer to blur the differences.
The political argument over minimum wage is a smoke screen that hides the real issue. The standard of living for people in the U.S. is waffling downward. More and more, any personal indulgences come from asset position rather than discretionary money. We need to learn to live at an acceptable standard and work to ensure that standard for our children and not use equity lines of credit to buy new Hummers. The percentage of home ownership is awful, if you owe money on your property the mortgagor stands in the wings as the ultimate owner by process of law. Don't get sick, you'll find out if you are a true homeowner or not.
Unfortunately, the current union atmosphere is too rigid and corrupt to handle this crisis. Thus minimum wage is a handy stop gap measure whereby the government steps in and does the job for an organized labor system that sees no profit in the little guy. IMHO, everybody is arguing about how big a fire extinguisher should be in a burning house.
__________________
You know...the best way to defeat a liberal is to let them speak.
posted on June 25, 2004 03:25:20 PM new
Twelvepole, you asked "why should McDonalds pay someone just entering the job market $7/hr?" My answer is why not?
crowfarm, The 2 young men and I worked a short 5 hour day to-day and both did a great job. The Marine told me that almost all his Marine buddies were big time Geo.Bush supporters of the Iraq war a couple years ago. Today most of his marine friends distrust Bush because Bush lied to them about why they went to war.
davebraun, Knows that Bush is pushing to open up Central America for free trade with the U.S. Central America has 36 million workers willing to work for between 30 cents and 1 dollar and hour. MORE OUTSOURCING OF U.S. JOBS FOR NO OTHER REASON BUT CHEAP LABOR.
MIDDLE CLASS AND WORKING AMERICANS NEED TO OUTSOURCE GEO.BUSH AND THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS BEFORE ITS TO LATE.
posted on June 25, 2004 06:13:15 PM new
Okay fenix - The offer's off the table.
-----------
Most all economists agree that raising the minimum wage WILL cost jobs.
On the land and housing...yes...if there is less land available to build on...what's there costs more. More cost to the builder...the more houses costs go up. Supply and demand.
I can speak for San Jose, CA housing. When builders there want to build another tract...they have to/are required to build so many low incoming housing units too...or no go with the project.
I don't agree that our government owes anyone a roof over their head, as I believe you put it. We all have the opportunity to *earn* it ourselves. It boils down to the live choices we make...just as does whether one over extends themselves and loses their home.
I don't agree with the government growing and continuing to add things like after school care. Especially when our deficit is where it's at.
Kerry's proposals are going way out of touch with reality. He's promising the world to ever one...and either they're not going to come about...or we're going back to the 70% tax rate we were once at. I perfer the current tax rates...they're high enough for me, thank you.
I don't believe President Bush will need to raise taxes. He's been fighting to keep the tax cuts as they are...which benefit many families. The economy's and job market has turned around and much of the deficit will be elimated that way....as it continues to improve. So...I sure don't see that happening short of another major attack on our nation. It's the dems who are always calling for even MORE spending...and kerry's a GREAT example of that. One only need to look at all he's proposing.
posted on June 26, 2004 04:16:45 AM newI don't believe President Bush will need to raise taxes
Again, just who is going to pay for this war? We're going to erase the huge deficit how? If anyone thinks Iraq is going to pay us back, I wouldn't hold your breath. Once we are done there, they'll throw us out and that will be the end of it. If memory serves, the only countries to pay us back are the UK and France. No one else has given back squat. Bush still plans on spending billions more on other little pet projects: Counseling for married couples on welfare? {Where does he come up with this stuff? Sometimes I think he has dreams in the night that he thinks he needs to act on.) Just where is the money coming from the pay for those little projects of his?
posted on June 26, 2004 04:47:48 AM new
Hopefully he is cutting the money to welfare... that would be a pleasant change to tell those people they finally have to work..
Why not? asked bigpeepa... because the average kid just coming into the job market is not worth $7/hr.... considering the turnover rate for them.
Young men just getting out of the Marines is not some teenager looking for summer work.
posted on June 26, 2004 07:02:33 AM new
it is hard to say if 7 dollars an hour is too much or too little??
how much do they get to take home??
i know workers in big city working at Walgreen,Home depot,Sally Beauty supply share a one bedroom apt and have no car.
But then from the employer's point of view,they have to add their share of the social security contribution and the paperwork and the heathcare cost,it would be close to 10 dollars an hour.
But then there are some who just work for tips like in New Orleans french quarter restaurants,or the asian buffet place where the waiters get a fixed sum of 15-25 per day and the rest is made on tips.
Some buffet places,a waiter clears 150 or more per day.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 26, 2004 07:16:31 AM new
Cheryl, let's face it...the neocons won't be happy until slavery is legalized....can't you just see a few of them who post in here...their eyes glistening, drool running down their chins as anxiously wait for an excuse to beat one! "That'll show those damn slaves that's it's a punishable offense to be poor!"
Oh, ya, let's go after those horrible welfare cheats sucking down our tax money...but let's ignore our taxes being siphoned to companies with off-shore addresses who make billions (through government contracts which we pay for) and pay NO income taxes.....WE make up the difference.
So, as usual the righties want to tramp on the less fortunate (because they CAN) but haven't got the back bone to stand up to huge corporations that are cheating on a MUCH bigger scale!....the bully syndrome....
posted on June 26, 2004 10:28:55 AM newYoung men just getting out of the Marines is not some teenager looking for summer work
No their first priorty is getting laid since they didn't get any in the Marine Corp. After getting laid their next priorty is trying to find a job where they can boss the little guy around.
Re-defeat Bush
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June is Gay Pride Month
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All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
