posted on June 28, 2004 08:56:47 PM new
I just sent another few bucks to John Kerry and feel VERY good about it. However I also put a few bucks to one side to see the movie this weekend. I am sure I will still feel better about sending money to Kerry because I already know that Bush is a failed leader on many fronts not just the Iraq war.
LETS OUTSOURCE THE BUSH GOVERNMENT BEFORE ITS TO LATE.
posted on June 28, 2004 09:22:37 PM new
" Not the entire speech, just the one tiny part. The same went for the rest of the movie."
MUCH MORE TO THE POINT is the fact that these "tiny parts" of speeches were inserted and edited to appear to have been given at certain times. Heston is made to look like a insensitive redneck buffoon for saying such awful things right after Columbine, when in fact the speech fragment was 2 years before Columbine.
posted on June 28, 2004 09:26:49 PM new
Still no Republicans answering if they've seen the movie? You still want to bash it, but you haven't seen it... Amazing. A bunch of lemmings following fascist Republican radio and television show hosts.
posted on June 28, 2004 10:23:22 PM new
desquirrel, exactly. That speech and that one snippet WASN'T around the time of Columbine, Heston DID look different!
rustygumbo, I have seen his other movie, and that is what I was talking about. No I have not seen the latest, so I have no comment...... well I do, but I won't voice them here
posted on June 28, 2004 10:26:52 PM new
then again rustygumbo, when The Passion of the Christ came out, there was a couple posters giving it the worst reviews there is, and admitted they didn't see it and would NEVER see it. So whats the difference here? ......
posted on June 28, 2004 10:38:04 PM new
"when The Passion of the Christ came out, there was a couple posters giving it the worst reviews there is, and admitted they didn't see it and would NEVER see it. So whats the difference here?"
nearthesea - that has to be one of the best reasons for a right winger to bash Fahrenheit 9/11. gee, someone else did it, so we should do the same... you couldn't have made my point any easier to understand. as i said before... right wingers are lemmings who follow their fearless talk show leaders.
posted on June 28, 2004 10:45:53 PM new
No, I already have said, I am not giving any 'reviews' or critiquing this movie, as I have not seen it. I DID see Bowling for Columbine and gave my opinion on it.
So, no, 'just because they did, I can' doesn't apply, but good try.
posted on June 28, 2004 10:50:19 PM new
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 28, 2004
Of all the commentaries on the Michael Moore's propaganda film Fahrenheit 9/11, the most acute comes from the New York Times' conservative columnist David Brooks. In a column facetiously titled "All Hail Moore," Brooks begins with this tongue-in-cheek observation:
"In years past, American liberals have had to settle for intellectual and moral leadership from the likes of John Dewey, Reinhold Niebuhr and Martin Luther King Jr. But now, a grander beacon has appeared on the mountain top, and, from sea to shining sea, tens of thousands have joined in the adulation." As I write, Moore's "documentary" is at the top of the box office, out-grossing on its opening day, Friday, "White Chicks," "Dodgeball," Stephen Spielberg's new pic, "Terminal" and "Shrek 2."
Behind this impressive box office success lies its maker's capture of the Democratic Party's imagination, not to mention its heart and soul. This is the really significant dimension of the Michael Moore moment. Others have focused on the fact that the Pied Piper of Flint is a cynical manipulator, an irresponsible auteur and a compulsive liar, and beyond that – as Christopher Hitchens has shown in a blistering review in the liberal magazine Slate – a world class phony (attacking the Bush administration's invasion of Iraq for derailing the War on Terror despite the fact that Moore is on record as opposing the attack on the Taliban as fiercely as he does the war on Saddam).
What is momentous in the Moore phenomenon is that the Democratic Party – or at least its intellectual wing and its activist core – has embraced a piece of Marxist agitprop as its most potent election campaign spot. David Brooks provides readers unfamiliar with the Moore creed with some chillingly precise quotes. According to Moore: "The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow – and they will win." In other words, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the beheader of Nicholas Berg, is not America's enemy, he is an Islamic reincarnation of Ethan Allen or Paul Revere, a harbinger of some new global freedom which can only be achieved by the overthrow of the Great American Satan. This obscene formulation is of course just an excessively vulgar version of the same Marxist fantasy that radicals like Moore were peddling in 1960s about Communist totalitarians like Ho Chi Minh.
Not surprisingly, Moore's "analysis" of the rationale for the war is vulgar Leninism.
In an interview with a Japanese newspaper, cited by Brooks, Moore explained: "The motivation for war is simple. The U.S. government started the war with Iraq in order to make it easy for U.S. corporations to do business in other countries. They intend to use cheap labor in those countries, which will make Americans rich." In other words, it's "blood for oil," the slogan made popular by the North Korea-aligned Workers World Party which through its political front International ANSWER was responsible for all the early mass demonstrations against the war in Iraq.
What is disturbingly new in this political season is not that there exists a large radical culture that has learned nothing from the fall Communism and that identifies Americans as agents of evil and George Bush as their Fuehrer-in-Chief.
What is new is that they are joined in this electoral campaign by the Democratic Party establishment along with sensible anti-Communist veterans from the Cold War era like Arthur Schlesinger and Kennedy speechwriter Ted Sorensen, who attended Moore's Washington opening along with Senators Tom Harkin and Barbara Boxer and DNC chairman Terry McAuliffe.
How far has this group derangement progressed? Salon.com, an internet journal which, unlike Moore, supported the war on the Taliban, now compares Moore favorably to Solzhenitsyn, Dickens and (of course) Bruce Springsteen.
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 28, 2004 11:51:15 PM new
Well, everything is "normal"....linda is still cutting and pasting...unable to form her own opinions without googling...dosen't DARE go see the movie she's so anxious to blast.
Hey linda, let me know when you want to resume our little talk about war records.
posted on June 28, 2004 11:54:49 PM new
Maybe she CAN'T go see it. Perhaps, like the man in South Dakota, she lives in an area where right wing groups were successful in keeping it out of the theatres.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 12:48:37 AM new
yellowstone says,
"
I think everyone should keep one thing in mind, IT'S ONLY A MOVIE. Seeing a movie won't change my mind about my beleifs. "
No, it's not a movie,it's a documentary with real actual video footage of real events. And, yes, you can pick apart some details but the major theme (how the Bushes are so tight with the bin Ladens and other high ranking Saudis including the king) is not just in the imagination of Michael Moore and it's naive to think so.
And the footage of Bush sitting for several minutes staring straight ahead after being told that America was under attack is VERY telling....like he was just waiting.....almost like he knew he was safe...not wanting to take action ...not just yet......
How many other Americans just sat and stared when they heard about the Twin Towers?
And our great leader just sits and stares!!!!!!!!!! Doesn't take action immediately?????
Ok, now we'll hear from all the neocons with their "reasons" he just sat... Moore "doctored" the video...or the school clocks were off or George was deep in thought about his golf swing..... or the third grade book was tough sledding for Mr.Literate...or, or, or...
posted on June 29, 2004 09:07:38 AM new
We watched this on TV last night, he does the Channel 4 news. Mike says, 'this guys a liberal isn't he' yeah. But he does give 'both' sides, sort of
http://komotv.com/stories/31933.htm
Sorry Crowfarm a cut and paste
SEATTLE - One heck of a presidential campaign we've got cooking.
There's the arrogant movie guy with his so-called "documentary", the Vice President of the United States giving us his best Tourette's impression in the Senate, and there's the Bush campaign ad inviting people to think of Adolph Hitler when they think of John Kerry.
Now, Michael Moore's 112 minute "Scare-em-like 9/11" is by no stretch a documentary.
A mix of fact, interpretation and opinion, it's an opus that basically has Moore giving the President the finger.
As for Dick Cheney's language: With all the lying that goes on in the Senate, profanity could be considered a profound improvement there.
Still, someone should wash his mouth out with soap.
The Bush ad tactic of 'Think Kerry, Think Nazi" is definitely a cheap shot.
But for those who say it sinks political campaigning to a new low, all I can say is that you haven't really been paying attention.
Personally, I think anyone who votes for Kerry because of Moore's film, or votes for Bush because he painted Kerry as a Nazi, needs to have their chad hung in Florida.
Or, as Mr. Cheney would say: "What're you? $**@^!#) nuts?"
posted on June 29, 2004 09:12:23 AM new
Nearthesea posted,"the Vice President of the United States giving us his best Tourette's impression in the Senate,"
Geezz,totally politically incorrect and I'm ashamed to say I'm laughing my butt off!
posted on June 29, 2004 09:21:23 AM new
The "lemmings" here are not the one's who haven't seen it. The lemmings are the one's who flock to see it and say people don't want to confront "uncomfortable facts," when there isn't a fact in it.
Guess what? In Moore's new "documentary" remake of Ken Burns' "Civil War", the Confederates win and bring back slavery. I'm debating whether I'm going to see it. Right after the new restored print of "Triumph of the Will" comes out.
posted on June 29, 2004 09:47:36 AM new
I haven't seen the movie yet so I am not going to comment on it. However I heard about the following site and wanted to share it with everyone.
I wonder how much the governemnt really knew about what was going to take place on 9/11.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 29, 2004 10:13:14 AM new
On the The Bush ad tactic of 'Think Kerry, Think Nazi' is definitely a cheap shot.
I see this differently. The picture on the website notes that it was one the MoveOn.org group used when they were comparing President to Hitler. They offer a few 'cuts' to show the 'angry left' and how THEY act.
How's that old saying go? What's good for the goose is good for the gander? Showing how desperate the left was to make that comparison is not the same to me as being the one's who first brought that 'comparison' into the political arena.
posted on June 29, 2004 11:31:45 AM new
NearTheSea - I wasn't directing that at you...but rather the hypocritcy the left always displays...like mentioning how Bush has done something, but leaving out the 'why' it is on their....which was to point out the desperate lengths the dem party has gone to.
Just like in Sen. Ryan's run for office...they wanted the files of his messy divorce opened up to the public....got them and now Ryan has dropped out of the race...which is what they wanted to happen. Ryan his and his ex-wife
BOTH objected.
...but they are now beginning a 'hissy fit' against those who think kerry's divorce files should *also* be made public too.
It's not your fault that someone made a statement I wanted to comment on.
posted on June 29, 2004 11:46:49 AM new
"It's only a movie"
"In the past year I have read several left leaning books and they didn't sway me."
Well, there is a difference between true video footage, and reading a book based on the writers opinion. Sure, Michael Moore is in essence presenting his opinion through the camera, however, you also have to consider that Michael didn't make up the videos of Bush panicking in a classroom over 5 minutes, or make up the video depicting Bush's arrogant attitude when he guaranteed victory in Florida weeks before the election with a smirk on his face while sitting next to his brother, who just happened to be the Governor of Florida. There is a clear distinction between someone simply writing a book based on opinion vs. a book or movie written with evidence to back them up. There are numerous points made in 9/11 that every American should pay attention to. No one has denied the fact that many members of the Bin Laden family were in the United States on 9/11. No one has denied that they were given permission to leave the country within 2 days of us being attacked. How can the Bush Administration justify letting these people leave the country when the majority of the terrorists were from Saudi, and one of their family members was the mastermind behind the attack? If one of us murdered one person, you can guarantee our family would be interviewed to gather evidence and information?
It is easy for someone to make up a fictional story. We see it every day, however the images depicted in this movie would be quite difficult to argue if you saw the movie.
Sure, there may be a few small narrative points in it that may be reaching to connect dots that may or may not be there. However, the footage alone of the President and his Administration tells the story.
On a side note, I was in a Christian Thrift Store yesterday, and they always play a Christian radio station in the store. While I was there, they played a commercial for a Christian non-profit that was asking for donations so they could print the Bible in Arabic to be distributed in Iraq to Iraqi's. It amazes me how that works. You might be right about this not being about just oil. Perhaps we should also consider it being about spreading America's seed of Christianity. Either way, it is sick and perverse.
posted on June 29, 2004 11:51:14 AM new
logansdad, thanks for the interesting link. IMHO, posters could be much more effective if they were less vitriolic and just lead their audience to the source.
I am acerbic in many posts to point out absurdities and to get people to thinking. Yeah, sometimes just to stir the pot.
______________
You know...the best way to defeat a liberal is to let them speak.
posted on June 29, 2004 11:59:15 AM new
Linda - personally - from this liberals point of view... ALL divorce files should be sealed and remain sealed unless needed in a police investigation. I don't think the government or the press needs to be in anyones bedroom - even after they leave it.
The whole ituation with Jack Ryan (which I paid any attention to at all only because of the Clancy charachter of the same name) is the perfect example of why no sane person would ever run for public office. We don't want to find great leaders, we just want to descrate anyone that tries to be one.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on June 29, 2004 12:13:53 PM new
Bunni, thanks for the VERY interesting link. I hope you don't mind my using it in a new discussion.
Helen, I try to be open-minded, honest, but sometimes I realize that arteriosclerosis of the mind is setting in. You know, that old dog new trick thing. But there are people on both sides with minds like traps -- usually closed. My posts are jaded and cynical, that's my outlook so I go with it.
yellowstone, you say the things I try to say, but in a non-opinionated un-judgmental way. I really enjoy your posts, more please. Everybody else, less moore please.
Don't pay to see this movie; Mr. Moore has, for the record, given permission to download it for free if you don't try to profit from it.
______________
You know...the best way to defeat a liberal is to let them speak.
posted on June 29, 2004 12:38:41 PM new
Be my guest, Parklane!
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 01:20:58 PM new
fenix - If you and I had any way of controlling the situation....I'd agree...neither should do it. My point was the silly self-righteous indignation that is shown when one does it.....when the other has done the same thing.
Then on the other hand....it IS important to many voters what the moral character/makeup of the person running to represent them is like.
------------
you also have to consider that Michael didn't make up the videos of Bush panicking in a classroom over 5 minutes. One does not have to read a slanted book to know the truth of what happened at that moment. There was video footage of the President when he was told of this terrible event. I personally watched it and DIDN'T come away seeing one bit of 'panicking' in his demeanor. We each see things through our own eyes and as with everything.....many people can come way from the scene of an accident 'seeing' it differently.
posted on June 29, 2004 01:31:35 PM new
Call it a documentary if you want but to me IT'S JUST A MOVIE made by a stupid, fat, white man and with that in mind I will view it as an entertainment piece.
I'm the sort of person that some hate to sit next to in movie theaters because I make all sorts of sarcastic remarks. I'm sure I will have alot to say during this MOVIE including probably blowing 3 or 4 raspberries, several harumphs and undoubtedly numerous get reals dude. But I will sit there eating my popcorn, drinking my soda pop and laughing at the satire through the whole thing.
posted on June 29, 2004 01:47:03 PM new
[I]Linda - personally - from this liberals point of view... ALL divorce files should be sealed and remain sealed unless needed in a police investigation. I don't think the government or the press needs to be in anyones bedroom - even after they leave it.
The whole situation with Jack Ryan (which I paid any attention to at all only because of the Clancy charachter of the same name) is the perfect example of why no sane person would ever run for public office. We don't want to find great leaders, we just want to descrate anyone that tries to be one. [I/]
Fenix, <in my best baptist imitation>: You SPOKE right there, yes you did!! Say amen, brothers! lol. seriously, you did speak.
I also wanted to address Linda's comment about the Kerry camp hiring convicted felons <that stupid catch-all phrase the media has coined over - which was first used by my sister as a psuedo intellectual way to make it an easy to-fit-two-word headline>. Linda, what more innocuous job can a released criminal do?? I applaud the Kerry camp for doing this. Not because its morally good or kind, but because it makes sense. If a criminal gets out of prison and cannot earn a living, or they cannot be back in society contributing and thinking there is a hope for a turn-around, they will inevitably turn back to crime. Statistic show that time and again. Maybe somebody in his camp has the sense to see that. Otherwise, we should have just kept them all in prison for all their lives.
I am a strong proponent of working things from the core and not at the surface. So I for one will say this is excellent idea from Kerry's camp. Shows me he is thinking about ALL of society and a small measure toward deterring residual impluses to further living a life of crime.
And Linda, I will also gently remind you Bush's two kids or nieces whichever would be capped in with convicted felons too had a judge not afforded them some leniency. So when you think of convicted felons maybe you'd want to think of them when you see them on the campaign trail too.... and even Bush himself would be a convicted felon had the mandates that are now in place for drunk driving been in place 'back then.'
posted on June 29, 2004 02:01:01 PM new
Neroter12, thanks for the comments above.
Now we know where all the new jobs were created. It was Kerry putting all the convicted felons to work. I guess we can not give all the credit to Bush after all.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
