posted on June 29, 2004 02:01:47 PM new
neroter - You might find it acceptable, but many don't/haven't. And because of the outcry that came about over this...the kerry campaign - those who are handling this voter registratio - have since said they will screen their employees more carefully so that violent offenders will NOT be hired.
posted on June 29, 2004 02:20:12 PM new
ok linda, I will agree there is some reservation of violent offenders. But since they are out of jail, what are they supposed to do? Where do they go? How do they live?
If one is worried about the instance of crime in this country, you cant just ignore they're out there.
It's kinda like a battered broken down house. You can fix it up and make it a home, or you can hang signs and boards all over it claiming it condemned. ? You tell me which is better for the neighborhood.
posted on June 29, 2004 02:38:13 PM new
neroter - If you won't put yourself in these peoples shoes - the ones who are objecting - and understand how they might just feel very uncomfortable about having convicted burglary felons coming to their doors...I don't know what to say, except there are other jobs they could be given that don't put them face to face with those they have previously hurt.
We have programs to help those getting out of prison get jobs. We don't need to be placing people who have broken into peoples homes in the past, into a tempting position. To me it's no different than putting a pedophile in a nursery school setting and saying well...it's a job - they deserve a new start. Too tempting to the convicts and too threatening to the public who needed to be protected from their previous behaviors.
posted on June 29, 2004 03:28:45 PM new
Linda, I didn't think you were directing anything at me I just pasted a LIBERALS view on the movie. Which I thought was interesting. Esp. where he says it is NOT a documentary
Ok I'm lost in this whole thread! Ya leave for a couple hours and well, I can't keep up..
posted on June 29, 2004 03:37:56 PM new
NTS - Good...I'd hope you hadn't but just wanted to be sure - just in case.
I've posted from liberal sites/articles to provide information here too. Doesn't do a bit of good - make a tiny bit of difference ...then they just argue it's not liberal enough...or at all. gotta find that funny, imo.
-------------
Imo and from all I've read on Moore's other movies...they aren't seen as documentarys at all - that was an area of contention during the Academy Awards...did his film even fall into the documentary catagory. By most fair minded people, they're seen as propoganda or as a satire....NOT unbiased against America....or now this President.
posted on June 29, 2004 03:55:55 PM new
Linda, I do understand the trepidation. But the funny thing you could be bumping into them/those you are afraid of anywhere!
The supermarket, the schools if they have children, the doctors office...They could see the wad you pull out of your purse in McDonalds...the list goes on. Once they're free, they are free to walk around same as anybody. If going to peoples homes to register them to vote is a viewed as a potential hit, then everything they do, everywhere they go, is a potential hit. Hell, we might start being afraid the of pizza delivery guy, or the chinese food place - maybe he was a criminal in china before he got here? Or maybe the mail man is a 10 year criminal that just hasnt got caught yet....
We have locks on our doors and security systems in our homes, Linda. And if we need to be really afraid there is communities with security pulpits out front.
In my opinion, thats not a valid enough reason to not let them do this. They are IN the program in the first place trying to effect a change in themselves and society.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:20:10 PM new
neroter - There's a huge difference between 'bumping' into convicted felons in public and having them had a lot of personal information about you - especially when you're NOT aware they are convicted felons.
"[i]just think about felons with possession of your phone number, driver's license number, social security number, and home address. Think about the implications about sending felons house to house to register voters."
[not my words - just one of those who object]
Many people were outraged when they found out convicts, still in jail, were being used to process credit cards for things they bought and who had their financial information - again without their knowledge.
The public has a right to know.
This situation is no different to me and shows VERY poor judgement on the democratic party's part.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:28:35 PM new
Once someone has served their time, they've served it. Why bother letting anyone out if you're going to crucify them their whole lives? What if (God forbid) you go out one night and you fall asleep at the wheel. You hit a car full of people killing one. You're sentenced to prison for vehicular homicide (aka murder). You serve your time and are released. What then, Linda? Should we all crucify you for what you've done and served your time for? It's not an impossible scenerio. Can happen to anyone of us at anytime(especially with all the eBay craziness, LOL). Try putting yourself in someone elses shoes for once instead of living in just your own.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 29, 2004 04:29 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 04:33:37 PM new
Linda - a couple questions...
Did the Kerry campaign hire a one of the many companies that employs people to go out and collect signatures on various petitions as well as registering non voters?
If it i the companies, you shoul be aware that they are hired by as many republican and democratic causes. In fact it was these types of companies that collected the signatures to recall Californias democratic govenor and were paid for by republican efforts.
Are these people actually going door to door?
I have never seen that one done. Considering what the people are paid sset fee for registration, differing set fee for each petition signature) it is not cost effective so they generally are positioned in high pedestrian traffic areas like outside malls, grocery stores or public transportation hubs.
Of course if this would all be a mute point if these people were already registered voters
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 29, 2004 04:35 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 04:45:42 PM new
Yes, fenix - The group "ACT" was hired by the kerry side to get voters to register....I'd guess to both parties, but since being sponsored by the kerry side....I'd say it's in areas where they're trying to work at drumming up more support.
-------
Well..any of you who wish to give your own personal information to convicts who were serving time for rape, burglary, other violent crimes. ... PLEASE feel free to do so. There are others who don't like it...and were upset about it.
Re-elect President Bush!!
edited to answer:
Are these people actually going door to door? Yes, that is my understanding.
posted on June 29, 2004 05:32:39 PM new
I agree with Neroter on this. Once someone has done their time, if society won't give them a chance to make an honest living, what's left for them but to go back to crime? There ARE certain crimes where the recidivism rate is so high (rape and child molesting) that the person is almost guaranteed to do it again when released. But the rest deserve the chance to make an honest living.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 05:59:57 PM new
Wow! Thanks bunni. An actual kudos from one of the more unbiased logical posters on this board! You've made my day! (really)
Linda, I gotta tell ya another thing. Most of the criminals youre identifing with have neither the skill, education or where-with-all do to anything with any of that information. Most petty criminals are pretty dumb. Now, if you want to talk about white-collar criminals like say, Ken Lay and the bunch at Enron...well different bowl of soup, campbells!
posted on June 29, 2004 06:36:43 PM new
neroter - Most petty criminals are pretty dumb.
We're not talking about petty criminals. We're talking about violent offenders who have committed rape, burglary and other VIOLENT crimes against their fellow citizens being sent out to get personal information - while registering unsuspecting citizens to vote.
You may consider those crimes 'petty' I don't.
As far as they've paid for their crimes.....and should be given a chance....so then am I to guess that you who hold that position don't have a problem with a sex offender knocking on the door of women who live alone....or a pedophile being given a job in a day care center or at a school as a janitor. Even they do background checks on their employees....because they KNOW it's a potential problem in the waiting.
posted on June 29, 2004 07:33:53 PM new
FAKEN-heit 9-11: Michael Moore’s Latest Fiction
June 25, 2004
Mark Twain, once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
But Twain lived in the 19th Century. In the 21st Century, there are lies, damn lies, and Michael Moore "documentaries."
Like Twain, Moore wants to be the great social commentator of our era. But, "Fahrenheit 9-11" (F911), his latest propaganda film, shows why he will forever remain in "wanna-be" status.
It’s typical Moore: lies, half-truths, far-left wackos and kooks as experts, snarky cheap shots, and just plain nonsense.
F911 starts out by recounting the tired liberal-left canard about George W. Bush "stealing" the 2000 Presidential Election. Gee, we haven’t heard that one before. And for those who actually read the paper and peruse bookstores, there’s little else new in this waste of celluloid.
Moore shows endless shots of Bush and administration officials being made up for TV appearances, montages of Bush golfing and on vacation, a shot of Bush with his dog – all accompanied by the sarcastic vocal commentary of Michael Moore. (You didn’t expect the self-important, schlubby Moore to spare us and stay off-screen, did you?)
In Moore’s world, liberal politicians never get made up or hair coiffed for TV appearances. In Moore’s world, Bill Clinton never golfed, never vacationed for months on Cape Cod and Martha’s Vineyard, never had a dog named "Buddy" – all while Slick Willie had the opportunity (several times) to have Osama Bin Laden handed over to him, but declined.
But that’s Moore’s world. He has learned the Costas Gavras (the famous Socialist-Communist director who produced Anti-American films) technique well. Bush and other administration "villains"--so cast by Moore--are shot from down below, to make them look even more evil.
Moore spends much time on Bin Laden family members flying out of the US when the rest of America was grounded, right after 9-11. Showing a clip of Khalil Bin Laden at the airport, a chyron on the screen cleverly reads "days after 9-11." But, how many days? In fact, while some Bin Ladens did get to fly out early, most of the Bin Laden family flew out of America, after the rest of America could already fly. Moore says the FBI was not allowed to interview them, but in fact, the FBI was allowed to interview them and chose not to. That is disturbing, but it’s not what Moore "reported".
The close relationship between the Bush family, including the current President, and the Saudi Royal Family is troubling. But it’s nothing new, and Moore offers no alternative. The Saudi Royals are, no doubt, despicable. They foster and fund madrasas, mosques, and clerics who preach the death of the West, Christians, and Jews. They hold telethons to fund the "martyrs" and allowed Al-Qaeda to grow. Women can’t drive, and non-Muslims are the equivalent of slaves. Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar is slimy and dishonest.
But the precarious Saudi Royal Family is better than the alternative--the Saudi masses who hate us even more and who love Osama Bin Laden.
If Crown Prince Abdullah is deposed by its extremist population, Bin Laden is the most popular replacement. Given the large Saudi investment in our economy (upon which Moore touches) and large holdings in our banking system, a change in Saudi leadership could result in the collapse of our economy. $2 a gallon oil? That would be a pleasant memory from the past, and only rich phonies like Michael Moore would be able to afford to drive. The Saudis are the largest producers of oil, and the radical Saudi population would see to it that we go back to the horse and buggy.
That is why it’s important for Bush to remain on good terms with the sleazy country that is the home to public beheadings and 15 of the 19 hijackers. Leftists from Moore’s "Amen" crowd won’t let us drill for oil in Alaska, so we can get away from dependence upon the Saudis. Not a peep about that in F911.
And while there’s plenty of factual material to use against the Saudis, Moore fabricates on that, too. He claims that the US Secret Service’s Uniformed Division protects only the Saudi Embassy, no others. That’s just plain false. Any tourist to Washington, DC, will see plenty of Secret Service Police guarding all of the other foreign embassies which request such protection. Other than guarding the White House and some federal buildings, it’s the largest use of personnel by the Secret Service’s Uniformed Division.
Since Moore lies about little things like that, what else has he lied about in this master docu-fakery?
Then there are Moore’s Congressional "experts." F911 features extensive interviews with two of the biggest wackos ever elected to Congress, Reps. Jim McDermott and John Conyers, both far-left Democrats. They spout off against everything from the USA Patriot Act to the War on Iraq.
But he fails to tell us that Jim McDermott was on the take from Saddam Hussein. McDermott was one of three Congressmen who went on Saddam’s propaganda tour of Iraq in Fall 2002. The trip was funded by Life for Relief and Development (LRD), a "charity" which laundered money to terrorist group Hamas’ Jordanian operation. LRD is funded in part by Shakir Al-Khafaji, a man who did about $70 million in business with Saddam through his Falcon Trading Group company (based in South Africa). LRD’s Iraqi offices were raided by US troops last week, and the Detroit-area "charity" is suspected of funding uprisings, such as the one in Fallujah. Its officials bragged of doing so at a recent private US fundraiser.
Mr. Alkhafaji, one of two Americans named in Iraqi newspapers as a participant in Saddam’s "Oil for Food" scam, gave Congressman McDermott $5,000 in October 2002 for McDermott’s legal defense fund in a lawsuit against him. He’s not biased about Iraq, right?!
Then there’s Conyers. He’s the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. Heaven help us if the Democrats retake the House majority, and he becomes Chairman of the Judiciary Committee. The far-left Conyers never met a terrorist he didn’t like.
Take the June 13 Muslim American Society fundraising dinner for Islamic Relief, a charity with links to the Muslim Brotherhood. Conyers and his wife were the guests of honor. They watched and clapped as the Sanabel Al-Quds "dancing" troop from Milwaukee—featuring boys as young as seven—sang in Arabic of martyrdom and jihad for Allah and Palestine. They didn’t need to understand Arabic, as the young boys used a rifle to simulate killing and pistol-whipping, simulated throat-slittings and beheadings, and dishonored the American flag.
The War in Iraq is a major focal point of the film. Moore shamelessly dishonors our brave soldiers. He makes fun of soldier’s musical choices in Iraq ("The Roof is on Fire" and depicts multiple wounded and dead Iraqis and soldiers raiding a home in Iraq searching for a militant. That’s what happens in war. People get wounded and killed. Moore shows the militant’s female relatives crying. "He’s a college student," they cry out in Arabic. College students would never be terrorists, would they? Tell that to the Israelis, where the "colleges," such as Bir Zeit University, are the breeding grounds for terrorists.
Very telling is the presence of the Al-Jazeera microphone in one segment of a women crying, "Allah Hu Akbar" (Allah is Great). Moore apparently thinks the sympathetic Terrorist News Network (Al-Jazeera) is the epitome of accurate news reporting.
Other BS in the Moore film:
* He shows Britney Spears saying she supports the President on Iraq. As if there weren’t a host of brain-dead bimbo celebs, (Madonna, Sean Penn, Russell Simmons, Lenny Kravitz, Susan Sarandon, The Dixie Chicks, etc.), spouting off on the other side.
* Moore repeatedly features Sam Kubba, of the American-Iraqi Chamber of Commerce, denouncing the War in Iraq as money-driven. But Kubba is a fringe character. Most Iraqi-Americans and their prominent leaders, such as Nabil Roumayah of the Detroit-based Iraqi Democratic Union, supported the war, whether they were Chaldeans (Christian Iraqis) or Shias.
* In very selectively edited clips, Moore poses the absurd notion that the main news anchors—Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, and Ted Koppel—wholeheartedly support Bush and the War in Iraq. Jennings, Rather, and Koppel supporting the War and Bush? Puh-leeze! Has Moore forgotten the hour-long Saddam softball interview Rather did just prior to the war, Jennings’ condescending coverage and Koppel’s critical "Nightline" episodes every step of the way?
* Moore exploits the grief of Lila Lipscomb, the mother of a soldier who died in Iraq. She denounces Bush and the War. But there are many mothers and relatives of US soldiers, alive and dead, who served there who don’t agree with her. Don’t look for them in this agit-prop "film."
*
Moore, as many misinformed "journalists do, makes light of the claimed Bush connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. But what about the meeting between hijacker Mohammed Atta and Iraqi Intelligence agents in the Czech Republic before 9-11? What about the Iraqi training camp in Salman Pak where Al-Qaeda used abandoned planes to train to hijack them? What about Ramzi Youssef, the Iraqi Secret Service agent and mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing, who is the nephew of 9-11 Al-Qaeda mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? What about Iraqi Intelligence and Secret Police (Mukhabarat) at a Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Al-Qaeda terror planning convention? These are just some connections, and there are others in "The Connection," by Stephen Hayes, that you won’t see in Moore’s silver screen screed.
Not just the film--but the audience that populated the promotional screening I attended--looked like it came out of far-stage-left of Democratic Party central casting.
Those surrounding me were literally the "Great Unwashed." They smelled as if they hadn’t taken a shower in weeks, not because they couldn’t afford running water, but because it’s cool to be dirty and nasty in the far-left. Not for any good reason, but just because they can. With their awful stench wafting universal, they want to make the rest of us as miserable and skanky as the Hate-America crowd.
It’s emblematic of the filmmaker and his fake-umentary. Michael Moore and "Fahrenheit 9-11" stink.
"The natural family is a man and woman bound in a lifelong covenant of marriage for the purposes of:
*the continuation of the human species,
*the rearing of children,
*the regulation of sexuality,
*the provision of mutual support and protection,
*the creation of an altruistic domestic economy, and
*the maintenance of bonds between the generations."
posted on June 30, 2004 12:12:33 AM new
Oh Look, bear learned cut and paste from linda! Isn't that cute!
Unlike Moore's documentary here's a sample of fair, objective, intelligent, accurate journalism from bear's post....
"Those surrounding me were literally the "Great Unwashed." They smelled as if they hadn’t taken a shower in weeks, not because they couldn’t afford running water, but because it’s cool to be dirty and nasty in the far-left. Not for any good reason, but just because they can. With their awful stench wafting universal, they want to make the rest of us as miserable and skanky as the Hate-America crowd.
It’s emblematic of the filmmaker and his fake-umentary. Michael Moore and "Fahrenheit 9-11" stink. "
Well, to be fair , the WHOLE article was just some frenzied Righty scared sh#tless by the left.
posted on June 30, 2004 05:22:16 AM new
Linda, you're assuming the people running the program have no discretion and experience with whom they're working with. I dont know the stats, but except for maybe a sexual offender who is complused to commit these crimes again, many of these violent offenders know the consequence of their actions would be jail (and when did burglary become a violent offense, btw?)-so the point is they are trying to do do and be something else. Habitual criminals - I didnt study that so I cant say what's the cure or fix; if there is one. But if we are willing to invest in faith-based outreach programs, it should include forgiving and helping 'the sinners/offenders'. (After all, thats what Jesus did. -didnt he?) And if they are to stand on their own in society, as a govt professes we would like to see them do, they need to be trusted at least until they prove they are untrustworthy. yes, its a risk on our part, but the energies that ripple from even one offender who has the esteem to think he can go straight, ripple alot further than you could imagine.
I myself, cant condem so-called sinners who are at least willing to try and then purport to call myself a God-fearing Christian. It doesnt make sense to the doctrine.
posted on June 30, 2004 09:45:12 AM new
Ltwelvepole says, "cut and paste and yet this movie is nothing but cut and edit...
Today Spiderman 2 comes out... it will soon be forgotten. "
Hey! Someone JUST found out movies are cut and edited!!!!
WHOA, you better call Hollywood and tell them Michael Moore just INVENTED cutting and editing!
And yes, Spiderman will be soon forgotten...this is what your sentence says so you're finally righton something..
posted on June 30, 2004 11:02:06 AM new
Spiderman 2 will only confirm Bush's link between Peter Parker and Spiderman. Next Bush will say Spiderman was behind the 9/11 attacks.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
[ edited by logansdad on Jun 30, 2004 11:05 AM ]
I just pasted a LIBERALS view on the movie. Which I thought was interesting. Esp. where he says it is NOT a documentary
gotta find that funny, imo. 
