posted on July 10, 2004 05:54:49 PM new
Kraft: Logan, besides the interpretation of God saying homosexuality is wrong in the bible, I've heard no other logical answer to why gays or gay marriage is bad.
Yes that is the realization I came to when this subject first came up three months ago.
The Bible says so it is must be true. Yes the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, but God still loves the gay person, he just hates the act.
The Bible also says divorce and pre-marital sex is wrong but straight couples still do it and they feel it is right. I guess they want it both ways.
If my business classes taught me anything it is to hate the phrase "that is the way we always did it". I apply that to marriage as well. Marriage is between a man and a woman because that is the way it has always been done. I don't by that. Marriage is the union of two people (who always happened to be a man and a woman until now) who are in love.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
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All Things Just Keep Getting Better
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We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on July 10, 2004 05:56:47 PM new
Linda, maybe it's just me, but I haven't heard one explanation other than what I've mentioned -
~ it ruins the sanctity of marriage
~ the Bible says I shouldn't accept gays
~ I feel this way because the majority of others do
posted on July 10, 2004 06:00:35 PM new
Don't forget that gays shouldn't have the same rights as the rest of America. They should be discriminated against because they are a bunch of sicko perverts who fantasize about little boys, or little girls, or whatever they fantasize about, unlike Catholic Priests.
As Cartman's mom on South Park once said, "Be careful Cartman, he may have the AIDS."
Gays are a bunch of freaks, and you know... I love you for it! Keep up the good work. Down with Bush and his band of renegades.
I'm done for the night, so the neo-cons can come out from hiding.
posted on July 10, 2004 06:03:20 PM new
KD - What you are missing is that we've all heard the pro and con agruments.....and came to a different conclusion.
posted on July 10, 2004 06:04:54 PM new
Logan, I've come to the conclusion that the nay-sayers just don't have an acceptable reason so they use one or all of the top 3 excuses so they don't have to say they have no idea. (Sheep)
posted on July 10, 2004 06:10:34 PM new
Linda: Linda, Kerry is in favor of civil unions.
logansdad - kerry is against gay marriage.
If we repeat it enough times with the truth change?
Well you better change your tune Linda or stick your foot in your mouth because you are dead wrong. The below statement is taken directly from Kerry's website:
John Kerry supports same-sex civil unions so that gay couples can benefit from the health benefits, inheritance rights, or Social Security survivor benefits guaranteed for heterosexual couples.
Perhaps you should really look into the positions of the candidates again BEFORE you start posting lies.
Just to let you know Kerry was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
[ edited by logansdad on Jul 10, 2004 06:15 PM ]
posted on July 10, 2004 06:13:32 PM new
Rusty: Hey Logan, just curious, but does Civil Unions also include cohabiting heterosexual couples? I don't know and was curious if that was the case as well
According to Vermont law, it only pertains to same sex couple.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on July 10, 2004 06:19:59 PM new
logansdad - Kerry's been quoted as saying he does NOT support gay marriage - but rather civil unions....and I have previously posted his direct statement.
I don't know what has gotten your panties all bunched up to share saying I'm lying about this or anything else.
I never lie. I might make a mistake here or there...but I don't lie.
And I haven't lied here.
I understand it must really piss you off that kerry believes marriage should stay defined as one man and one woman.....
but don't shoot the messenger....be angry at your own candidate if you don't like the position he holds.
posted on July 10, 2004 06:23:19 PM new
Matter-of-fact, logansdad....when Mass. SC ruled on this issue....kerry was also quoted as saying he DISAGREED with their decision.
posted on July 10, 2004 06:31:04 PM new
Your kerry didn't have the guts to say, Yes...I support gay marriage...because he was afraid it might damage his political standing. At least President Bush is willing to fully support his own position.
taken from Boston.com on 2-6-04
Kerry, now the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, issued a statement noting that, though he favored civil unions, he disagreed with the SJC's demand for full marriage.
But the thornier issue is one Kerry declined to address. Given his opposition to gay marriage, would he now support amending the state constitution to prohibit homosexual unions?
Asked that question, Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said the senator would wait to see what the Legislature does before commenting further.
Governor Romney, suspected of harboring future national hopes of his own, reacted to the SJC advisory opinion by reiterating his call for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. And by stressing the voters deserved a say in an issue of this importance.
Both men obviously realize the treacherous terrain they face.
Kerry saw up close the way some of the positions former Governor Michael Dukakis took as a Massachusetts politician were used to portray him as a liberal out of touch with mainstream values when he ran nationally in 1988. Romney and his team, meanwhile, are all too aware that the social liberalism that made Bill Weld such a comfortable fit as governor also rendered him anathema to the Republican Party's conservative national base.
Both men also clearly recognize this reality: Although the Massachusetts electorate is split on gay marriage, embracing the idea could prove a decided detriment to a successful national candidacy.
posted on July 10, 2004 07:05:57 PM new
Linda, you have yet to answer how straights getting married for health benefits furthers your cause for the sanctity of marriage.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on July 10, 2004 07:53:03 PM new
I certainly find it strange none of you demo gogs had a response to you supreme idol, heir clinton's aversion to gay marriages.
"The natural family is a man and woman bound in a lifelong covenant of marriage for the purposes of:
*the continuation of the human species,
*the rearing of children,
*the regulation of sexuality,
*the provision of mutual support and protection,
*the creation of an altruistic domestic economy, and
*the maintenance of bonds between the generations."
posted on July 10, 2004 08:06:22 PM new
This year marks my 18th wedding anniversary. Please hurry up and amend the constitution before my marriage falls apart.
I saw a gay couple on the street the other day and I don't think I can handle it. There was even a transexual at the 4th of July BBQ I went to (had a very nice pedicure). Please stop these people (they are people aren't they) I don't know how much more society can endure.
posted on July 10, 2004 09:20:46 PM new
You need make no choice to be hetrosexual... you were born that way... you made a choice to be homosexual...
Think about this a little more twelve. You can't be that dense. If you are saying everyone is born straight and gays end up choosing to be gay, everyone is faced with the same option only some choose to remain straight while others choose the gay option.
Kinda like everyone going down a road when all of a sudden there is an option to go left or to remain going straight. Some choose go to left while some choose to stay on the straight path. What makes people choose one path over the other? This is what I want to know.
Based on your theory that being gay is a choice, then my argument is that everyone faces the same choice. Again you bring up these theories but have no proof to back up your claim on why supposed straight people choose to be gay?
Inquiring minds want to know......
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on July 10, 2004 09:30:25 PM newI certainly find it strange none of you demo gogs had a response to you supreme idol, heir clinton's aversion to gay marriages.
You better look down bear, your naïveté is showing. None of us here who support Clinton in general necessarily march in lockstep behing him. Just like you and Bush. I'll bet you're not real pleased with his reluctance to deal with the immigration problem, but that doesn't mean you'll reject him entirely. Same with us and President Clinton.
Did you mean Herr ? Or did Clinton inherit an estate?
___________________________________
Beware the man of one book.
- Thomas Aquinas
posted on July 10, 2004 09:31:56 PM new
Yes, Dave, my "domestic partner" and I have been together for 25 years and all the while we had gay friends!
How DID we do it? Wow!
We also had married friends and we never once considered marrying because they were married.
We were smart enough to treasure ALL our friends despite (and sometimes because of) differences.
Maybe I should go into marriage counseling for straights since 51% of them got divorced BEFORE gay marriages were legal..... they really need help NOW!
I'm sure you know that most women who are murdered are murdered by their husband ....says a lot for the "sanctity" of marriage.
posted on July 10, 2004 10:32:37 PM new
139 posts and no one has had their mind changed yet. Doubt anyone will.
In Christ,
Rick
1John 5:11-12
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on July 11, 2004 03:16:13 AM new
I'd like to add something here. Logan, I hope I dont hurt your feelings, but it occurred to me last night one of the things that, say, secluded straights - those in rural areas, or who have very little opportunity to actually interact with gay members of society might feel or think the sanctity of marriage is at risk, is because of the way either gay folks present themselves or are portrayed in the media.
i think the whole 'sanctity' thing comes in because regardless to how we have destroyed marriage - the presumption is we begin it on a serious note. (Even kids who marry at the elvis chapel quickly sober up to they've done a serious thing here after a bit.)
Okay, there are exceptions and the britany spears/jennier lopez's arent doing much to foster any seriousness of the institution. But they are 'stars' or whatever you'd want to call them. So we not moving in their realm, & feel they have their own set of standards. That can easily be dismissed as not applying to our reality, or even society in general.
Last night while waiting for some sexy pictures in the EO to show up ..I started to watch this tv show. I dont even know what channel it was on, or how I happened on it. Some gay british (or some other type accent-Australian?)- comedian guy and friends. Ultra fab avant garde jacket going on, a lot of way out there sexual jokes... I laughed. Even my husband laughed at some of it. It was funny.
But to someone watching him with no appreciation of gay humor - or no humor exposed at that level at all - it is strange. And the sexual stuff - like if my mother watched it - it would be out of bounds to her sense of good taste. To her and many of her generation, it might as well be a martian trying to communicate.
So I got to thinking if all we ever see of homosexuals, if our understanding is based on all the FUN stuff gay's get to do and be, how do you expect people, *straighters* as mentioned above, to think they are going to into this marriage thing seriously?
Now you'll tell me thats not all there is. (if thats all there is my friend...then keep on dancing...lol - sorry-diverted by my own thought here)- Well, *I* know that is not all there is, but that is a huge part of what is constantly portrayed. A large segment of society who doesnt even 'get it'. Sometimes I dont get it either and thought I could view this as extremely immature or stupid if I wanted to. Simply because I dont know what he is talking about. (he did a joke about some toys or some sexual innuendo that I had an inkling about...but the funniness of it was lost on me!)
Ok. All this and the point I'm coming around to - maybe you can relate: You are a father yourself. You probably know you dont give you kids things and responsibilities you're pretty sure they cant handle because of their maturity level. Right? I might be wrong, but I think that is the underlieing feeling among quote unquote straight adults? That homosexuals are too frivolous, or immature to handle it? They will fritter away any seriousness or commitment - that we at least try - if kidding ourselves or not- that is supposed to go into it?
So if that is why, do we think that they shouldnt feel this way? and who is to blame for them thinking that way?
Thats it.
(btw, did you all know george michael shut down his web site chat because it got too bit**y in there?? Whats up with that? And I never even got there to visit and talk to him!)
posted on July 11, 2004 06:04:54 AM newWhat makes people choose one path over the other? This is what I want to know
I am not your pyhciatrist and considering the questions you are asking you need therapy for those answers.... why are you afraid to seek therapy? Why do you feel the need to get free therapy here?
I have answered your questions for the last time, you made a wrong choice and seem to be ashamed of it and are fighting because deep down you know that it is wrong....
This question also applies to murderers... they make a choice to kill... they too need therapy.
They are not born that way... just like you weren't born homosexual... you are on the right path; just get the therapy you seem to be desprately seeking and soon your mistake will be over with.
posted on July 11, 2004 06:14:32 AM new
neroter, sounds like you were watching Absolutely Fabulous. It is a funny show and I myself have only watched it once or twice. Yes this show does poke fun at gay but most gays can relate and laugh along with the humor. A better show that depecits gay life is "Queer as Folk" on Showtime.
Getting back to your question, yes if the straights only see this show they may think that we will not take marriage seriously, but there are also a bunch of soap operas on everyday, is this an accurate depicition of the straight lifestyle?
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on July 11, 2004 06:19:29 AM new
What makes people choose one path over the other? This is what I want to know
I am not your pyhciatrist and considering the questions you are asking you need therapy for those answers.... why are you afraid to seek therapy? Why do you feel the need to get free therapy here?
I have answered your questions for the last time, you made a wrong choice and seem to be ashamed of it and are fighting because deep down you know that it is wrong....
This is the best answer to support your claim that being gay is a choice. So in other words you can't support your claim at all. You have yet to provide an answer. Twelve you are really good at making statements with no proof to back up anything you say.
I was not looking for therapy nor do I need it. I am perfect happy being who I am. Keep preaching the stuff you learned at NARTH because it is you who need help my friend
The next time you are in gay bars trying to convince gays to become straight again, why don't you do a little research while you are at it and ask the gay people why they chose to be gay.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
All Things Just Keep Getting Better
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
[ edited by logansdad on Jul 11, 2004 06:26 AM ]
posted on July 11, 2004 07:03:17 AM new
Support what? that people are born heterosxual? I need not support that... look around see what the norm is... choices people make place them outside the norm...
Considering you made the wrong choice in life and are trying to justify it... that is your problem... I am just letting you know it was a wrong choice.
How do you explain murderers logansdad? are they born as well? or do they make a choice?
I am curious to see how you explain that...
Oh and if the paper means so little to you... why the big push for marriage? You have said yourself you don't need it... So it only serves as a homosexual agenda...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jul 11, 2004 07:10 AM ]
posted on July 11, 2004 07:16:47 AM new
Logan, you make a very good point with the soap operas.
Just before, I had the news on. I watched two stories: 1. a bit about how the cops in NY are trying to prepare to juggle the convention and all the different things going on. They showed the various protester groups. A lot of the real life gay protesters are well, you, know...dressed up and buzzed-up! And then they did a clip on these two seemingly quiet classical gay guys playing the piano. Their lament is this should not be a political issue at all. The bush camp is using it to rally the religious right, which I think is very true btw - but that is a core part of his base - so why expect less?) But I couldnt help but think what a difference here - and I asked myself who do you respond better to? I think I should tell you that I do understand that part of gay culture that is flamboyant and rightfully allowed to be so. There are times I found it fun and times I found it annoying. But I am moody, so leave it at that.
But do they consider if this is a serious issue, that is going to need some pull from some serious straights? I dont know, Logan. I try not to judge and can only conclude there are all kinds even in every group. But you've got to realize the onus is on you. It may not be fair, but that where its set up right now.
(Why am i even going into this is beyond me. Not telling you anything you havent already thought of am I? )
nero :-0\
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