posted on July 17, 2004 05:08:38 PM new
The point is Helen, unlike your statement above about how soldiers feel: He wanted to fight for his country. He actually WANTED to do that.
posted on July 17, 2004 05:27:00 PM new
Yes, and look how Tilman died: killed by his own countrymen. It didn't escape your notice, did it, that he was killed by "friendly fire?"
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 17, 2004 05:37:34 PM new
So bunni, that was his fate. And he chose it of his own free will. You cant speak of all people's patriotism or impose some blanket cynisim on all the soldiers because you feel the administration is corrupt.
Since this is a new page, I'll copy my answer here...
The troops can't be held responsible for where and why a war is fought. Pat Tilman, like many Americans was misled by the Bush administration. Even Congress was deceived.
And, I understand, as you say that he "really wanted" to join the military.
So, he left a new wife and a 3.6 million dollar contract to join the Army. I can't answer what his personal motivation was other than possibly a need to be a part of the patriotic movement that had been promoted by Bush propaganda after 9/11. That together with the lies about WMD ready to fire in 45 minutes was probably was a factor in his decision.
Unfortunately, there will be other people like him... misinformed and similarly influenced before this war ends.
posted on July 17, 2004 05:59:17 PM new
Helen, maybe people feel the way they do despite what Bush or any politician says. To you, politics is very important. A great number of people could care less, but still act out of a greater sense of purpose here. Yeah I think patriotism can be stirred, sure. But if you dont feel that way to begin with, one is probably not going to be moved to do anything about it beyond waving a flag or something.
He wanted to go over there. No matter how you slap it upside down, inside out; HE WANTED to go. Does that make him stupid for leaving the million dollar contract and wife and child? Maybe in our eyes. But that was what was inside him. It's not like he didn't know risks involved.
And believe it or not, some of them are in their glory being soldiers.
"He wanted to go over there. No matter how you slap it upside down, inside out; HE WANTED to go. Does that make him stupid for leaving the million dollar contract and wife and child? Maybe in our eyes. But that was what was inside him. It's not like he didn't know risks involved."
neroter I *really* do understand that he *actually* wanted to join the military. But there are so many variables that influence decisions such as this. Hell, he may have had so much money that he didn't need the 3.6 million. Who knows? I could write suppositions all night that may have influenced his decision. But we AGREE that whatever his reasons he really wanted to join the army regardless even of his political preference.
I said earlier, before the mention of Pat Tillman, "Do you think that any young fellow today is going to think it worthwhile to risk his life for THIS war?"
By now, most people in America question the justification for this war, the problems with planning and leadership. I really doubt that few will volunteer to join the army, knowing more about the situation now than Pat Tillman did when he joined.
But then, Tillman may have been the kind of guy who would have joined anyway. Who knows?
Helen
ed. to change "really" to "actually" and address my answer to neroter
posted on July 17, 2004 06:47:31 PM new
snippets from USA Today - 5-29 on why this brave young man wanted to serve his country. Thank God we have brave men and woman who are willing to defend their country. Unlike some who only bash it and those who also believe/support that it's worth fighting for.
rusty - take note please
Tillman was with the Army Special Forces in Afghanistan, where U.S. forces have been trying to chase down Osama bin Laden and members of his al-Qaeda terrorist group. During major combat in war with Iraq, Tillman was reportedly stationed with the 173rd Airborne Brigade in northern Iraq.
He was 27.
Several of Tillman's friends have said the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks influenced his decision to enlist.
"Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," commissioner Paul Tagliabue said in a statement. "He was an achiever and leader on many levels who always put his team, his community, and his country ahead of his personal interests."
Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Arizona, said Friday morning that it was his understanding that Tillman was killed in Afghanistan.
.............
"Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Hayworth.
..........
"He chose action rather than words. He just wanted to serve his country. He was a remarkable person," said Hayworth. "He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life."
........
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in an interview just last week on National Public Radio last week, pointed to Tillman as an example of bravery the topic of McCain's new book.
.......
"And it wasn't a moment of crisis or strife that motivated Pat Tillman. It was the recognition that the United States was under attack and he volunteered to defend it."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 17, 2004 06:51:41 PM newDo you think that any young fellow today is going to think it worthwhile to risk his life for THIS war? ::
There are still plenty of brave men and women who are signing up....joining...willing to risk their lives to defend this country.
To think there's not is false.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 17, 2004 06:53:45 PM new
Well, subsequent posts by the neocons has proved my point. (see parklane's last post, violence for him is always the answer.)
They like war for war's sake. They do not wish for peace. Revenge is everything.
Why, I'm sure we can think up a "good and holy" reason for starting a war anywhere if we all just apply our imaginations!
Maybe we should look up who killed who in our Civil War and take revenge????????
The Revolutionaty War? WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam....
C'mon everybody let's settle everything with lots of wars,let's keep fighting until there's no one left...THAT'LL show 'em!
And, let's face it, a violent reaction is so much easier than thinking.
posted on July 17, 2004 07:02:15 PM newRevenge is everything.
Iraq was not for revenge....it was to remove a large threat.
Afghanistan could be called for revenge...by some...who don't think going after those who killed 3000 innocent Americans on 9-11 was justified. And everything the terrorists did on that day was somehow justified, in their minds, because of all the 'wrongs' America has done. We deserved it appears to be their thinking.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 17, 2004 07:15:40 PM new
By the sound of slithering and hissing...something evil this way comes......
Hi Linda! you misguided doofus.
""""And everything the terrorists did on that day was somehow justified, in their minds, because of all the 'wrongs' America has done. We deserved it appears to be their thinking. """
Taken up mind reading now have ya?
Well, I suppose you might be able to....dabble in the black arts long enough and who knows what you can do.
Too bad your "skills" don't involve looking into a future of revenge for revenge for revenge and on and on.....but then you
don't have much to lose, do you?
And you proved the point of the original post once again! Thank you!
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 17, 2004 07:16 PM ]
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 17, 2004 07:18 PM ]
posted on July 17, 2004 07:56:48 PM new
Not all young men want to fight and possibly die over a useless war as a couple of them have deserted and crossed the border into Canada and are fighting to stay there now.
posted on July 17, 2004 08:20:38 PM new
You can't look at Kerry either. 4 months and early out. Sounds good. Maybe a scratch or two, couple of ? purple hearts, home and then into the senate where he doesn't do his job. Great American.
Great Americans have great children. They learn values, how to treat people and contribute to their country. Thank goodness you don't have children crowfarm.
Many went to Canada during the vietman conflict also. So be it.
posted on July 17, 2004 08:32:12 PM new
Libra says,"You can't look at Kerry either. 4 months and early out. Sounds good. Maybe a scratch or two, couple of ? purple hearts, home and then into the senate where he doesn't do his job. Great American.
Great Americans have great children. They learn values, how to treat people and contribute to their country. Thank goodness you don't have children crowfarm."
DUH....Libra you don't get medals for "a scratch or two".
I heard that Brave Bush fell off a bar stool a couple of times...does that count for a Purple Heart? And I hear HIS children are drunks, too! Great parent!
As far as not having children...."goodness"had nothing to do with it.
But it makes me happy again that I didn't have any to slaughter in Bush's war....I just wish it was ONLY neocons who's children died in war....they love it so much!
posted on July 17, 2004 08:36:29 PM new
Ya know, if you thump the bible hard enough doesn't a phrase fall out.....it's by Lord somebody and kinda goes like....."revenge is mine"..............
posted on July 17, 2004 08:48:44 PM newyou don't get medals for "a scratch or two".
kerry did. read what his own commanding officer said. It'll make you laugh.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 17, 2004 08:54:32 PM newtaken up mind reading
Nope, just stating what a couple of our darling ultra-left posters have stated. They're the blame America first crowd.
Well, don't look at our president !
Oh, but you are SO very wrong. His actions after 9-11 proved he's willing to defend this Nation.....not just pretend it's going to go away like some democrats do.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 17, 2004 08:57:44 PM new
"""The Purple Heart is given to members of the armed forces who are wounded in action.
Kerry first met intense combat on December 2, 1968, when the small boat he skippered encountered the Viet Cong and engaged in a firefight. Kerry's M-16 jammed, and as he bent down to get another weapon, a hot chunk of shrapnel flew into his arm. The wound didn't cause Kerry to miss any duty, but it did qualify him for his first Purple Heart.
Shrapnel again hit Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry, this time in his left thigh, on February 20, 1969. Kerry's boat spotted enemy combatants on a riverbank and fired. A grenade hit the boat, causing shrapnel to bore into Kerry's leg and earning him another Purple Heart.
His last Purple Heart came from injuries sustained on March 13, 1969. A mine exploded under Kerry's boat and wounded him in the right arm. Despite the injury, Kerry rescued a Green Beret and assisted other damaged boats while braving sniper fire from the riverbanks. This incident earned Kerry a Bronze Star with Combat V for "calmness, professionalism, and great personal courage under fire." This final injury was the most severe and gave Kerry pain for years.
Soon after, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry requested reassignment. Military policy allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to ask for assignment away from the combat zone, to be granted at the discretion of the commanding officer. After four years of service, Kerry was deeply disillusioned with the Vietnam War and questioned why the U.S. government was sending young men to die "for a mistake."
He was soon reassigned to stateside duty. Concerned about his fellow crewmembers, Kerry arranged for them to receive safer assignments and even talked one into accepting less dangerous duty. After Kerry's service in the Navy, he became a spokesperson for Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
* Editor's note: This column originally ran with a factual error. The error has been corrected. The column stated "After two years of combat, Kerry was deeply disillusioned with the Vietnam War..." Kerry served in the Navy from 1966 to 1970 and was in Vietnam from November 1968 to April 1969. We apologize for the error. """"
Nothing wrong here but ya know, I just COULDN'T find a WAR RECORD for BUSH..???????????
posted on July 17, 2004 09:16:22 PM new
kiara, from your link:
A senior at Yale, Bush takes an Air Force officers test. He scores in 25th percentile in the pilot aptitude portion, and declares that he does not wish to serve overseas.
25th percentile, jeez, it's probably a good thing he didn't serve!!!
___________________________________
Beware the man of one book.
- Thomas Aquinas
posted on July 17, 2004 09:27:14 PM new
Kiara! Thank you! Great websites!
Why don't ya do the old "cut and paste" and start a new thread....great reading!
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 17, 2004 09:29 PM ]
posted on July 17, 2004 09:37:40 PM new
Great Links, Kiara!!!
And here is Kerry's Silver Star
The Secretary of the Navy
Washington
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the SILVER STAR MEDAL to
LIEUTENANT (JUNIOR GRADE) JOHN F. KERRY
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE
for service as set forth in the following
CITATION:
........For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (jg) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three-boat unit engaged in inserting Vietnamese regional force troops on a reconnaissance in force mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than fifty feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. This daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request upon U.S. Army advisors ashore, he ordered PFCs 94 and23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats were again taken underfire from a heavily foliated area and a B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF 94. With utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area, an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (jg) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. By his brave action, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
For the President
Secretary of the Navy
