posted on August 29, 2004 10:37:29 PM new
I have not posted in here in quite a while: too much going on, and too many topics ruined by useless banter.
That said, I work in a LTC (Long Term Care) Facility as an LNA (Licensed Nurses Assistant) as well as an MNA (Medical Nurses Assistant). I care for the elderly and disabled, doing everything from helping them get up in the mornings, cleaning the messes they make in their adult undergarments, and passing them medications. I see "disabled", Alzheimer's (which cannot be diagnosed until death, up to that point it is called dementia of Alzheimer's type), brain injuries and a wide variety of other afflictions. I have been doing this type of work for 8 years now.
I do not agree with suicide at all: I too have watched loved ones die of horrific things. My dad died of lung cancer, my youngest brother died from injuries stemming from a fall, and one of my children died of SIDS. I understand what it is to watch people you care about die from these things: though we are instructed to "keep our distance", we do become attached to our residents. When one of them gets injured, sick or dies, we feel for them and their families. But I do not feel that taking a life by suicide assistance is right at all.
If I remember correctly, doctors no longer are required to take the Hippocratic Oath upon graduation from medical school. However, just because they may not take it doesn't mean that they should break it. It would be like an officer of the law not taking the policeman's oath, and then deciding they want to assist criminals instead of helping them.
Doctors are about the closest thing to God on earth, in a sense: they are trusted more then lawyers, policemen, fireman and such. they can heal the sick through operations, correct prescriptions, therapy and such. They are here when we are usually at our weakest.
If there ever comes a time when P.A.S. becomes law of the land, I pray that doctors are not involved. I pray that they train other people (med tech's, flabotimists and such) to "do the dirty work". It is just so wrong that someone who is supposed to be saving lives would be taking them.
To side track a bit, since I do not believe in abortions but they are the law of the land, I also feel that doctors should not perform them. Train people without using the notation Doctor: because a doctor is supposed to denote healing, and not killing.
I may have opened up another can of worms with that last statement, but oh well. I feel it was needed here, and not in the partial birth abortion thread.
In Christ,
Rick
Romans 8:16
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on August 29, 2004 10:55:08 PM new
I am not going to get into this. I stated my feeling and being in the health care field it doesn't make any difference. I have seen people that they though were never going to live snap out of it as fast as they went into into it. I have a friend whose mother had a serious stroke and now is walking and talking again. Fennix don't assume that being in the healcare field I would approve of it. I feel I have a purpose in life and when I have served that purpose I will die.
It is NOT for me or anyone that I love. But go ahead and do it as it is your life. The law says he can't do it so that is why he is in Jail.
Crowfarm is one sick puppy. She is the most negative person that I have ever encountered and most of her posts drip of hatred. She only got along with one other person on this board who was just like her. she calls people names, she insults, She can't carry on a good discussion as she always has to inject negativity into everything she writes.
Boy, am I glad I got that off my chest. Now watch she will come in smoking call me names and if she doesn't it doesn't fit her bill.
She probably had a terrible childhood and now is taking it out on us or rather me.
[ edited by Libra63 on Aug 29, 2004 10:57 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2004 10:56:03 PM new
CC: Did you ever watch that series by Bill Moyer? I think it was titled "On death and dying well?" It offered alot of varying points of view on the euthanasia issue. I think there are alot more in the medical field that are sympathetic to it, but because of the laws cannot openly agree.
I also think there are hospice nurses etc., that administer morphine and other drugs to the terminally ill, that have taken liberties they should not have, out of this sympathy. I feel if a person decided for themselves they no longer wish to live - that is a horrible place to arrive at, but their own decision to make. We can judge it wrong, but it's not really our eyes who it is right or wrong to.
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
posted on August 29, 2004 10:57:29 PM new
I'm glad you post whenever you are able to ChristianCoffee. And I can't even begin to imagine the pain you've lived through in losing your mentioned loved ones. {{{supportive hugs}}} to you, your wife and your family.
posted on August 29, 2004 10:59:06 PM new
neroter12, you posted a link on the previous page and asked Kraft a question. Perhaps you can click again on the link and read the name of the person who wrote that. As I've mentioned to you several times already, Kraftdinner and I are two different people.
Also, please don't assume that I was living in Canada when that happened. You know very little about my life.
posted on August 29, 2004 11:03:48 PM new
Neroter, I have never seen the series.
i will agree that there may have been/are some hospice nurses, as well as nurses in LTC's and hospitals, that may have taken "liberties" with dosage amounts. However, they walk a fine line if they do this.
1) They can lose their license to practice for an extended period of time. Also, a notation like that would be like an albatross around their neck as long as they practiced medicine.
2) They very well could go to jail.
When a hospice nurse comes in (at least here), they do have a right to ease the suffering with strong med's. However, they normally confer with the nurses on the floor who know the patient, and then deliver the dosage. There is so much more to giving dosages then body mass. There is drug interactions, phyisological make-up and tendencies, and past medical history. I, like the vast majority in this field, really feel for what these people are suffering. However, we also understand that killing/assisting them to die is not really the answer.
In Christ,
Rick
Luke 12:48
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on August 29, 2004 11:15:41 PM new
CC: Yes, they could lose their license and all the above you mentioned. However, I think there is very little chance of that happening (and they are quite aware of it) because the patient is terminal and it would seem everyone is kind of just waiting for them to die and its is only a matter of when.
Linda, you sneaking in here in the middle of the night again! Shame on you!!
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
[ edited by neroter12 on Aug 29, 2004 11:24 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2004 11:29:34 PM new
There would also be one other thing, Neroter. And that would be guilt. Just because someone is terminally ill doesn't mean you can kill them. They do have rights, and a right to live, even if they are in pain/unresponsive, is still a basic right.
That being said, there have been times when I have wished that a nurse or doctor would make a mistake and send a person off. But being in this career field lends thoughts like that. But I always feel guilty when I think like that, as do the vast majority of people I work with. we want to comfort and care for people, not kill them, or help them kill themselves.
Thank you, Linda, for the hugs. It is hard, however my family and I have enough faith in Christ that we can make it through. We lost my dad and my son in the same month: July of '99. It is very hard, but by the Grace of God we make it.
In Christ,
Rick
John 8:24
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on August 29, 2004 11:37:47 PM new
I completely agree with the practice of assisted suicide. There is no reason for any human being to live their final days or weeks in horrible pain. Imagine if you had a simply toothache, and how painful that was. Now imagine if you had bone cancer and a large grouping of bones were affected with cancer. Can you imagine how much pain a person with this would be in?
One of the duties of a doctor is to lessen pain. If the only recourse is to end the life to lessen the pain, then so be it. I think that every person should be able to choose for them self.
As I have said before, I have a kidney transplant. There may be people reading this who might know a person who is or was on dialysis. The simply fact is that even though you may think that you know what that person is/was going through with dialysis, you really don't. The only person who knows about any medical condition is the person who has experienced it. Therefore, when a person says they don't agree with doctor assisted suicide, I think that person is truly speaking from a position of ignorance. I once told one of my doctors, "you may be highly educated on kidney disease and the complications of it, but until you have it, you really don't know what it's really like".
Of course, this is another item the religious right has on their plates. Those people think that every person should live to the last minute in "the way God wanted". Regardless of human dignity and the loss of it, let's obey the bible.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on August 29, 2004 11:51:32 PM new
CC; reference There would also be one other thing, Neroter. And that would be guilt....
I dont know how they reconcile this, or even if they do feel such a guilt. If they think they have done a good deed, rather than hasten a death that was not already coming why would they feel guilty about it? The thing about guilt is you have to have a conscience for it to have any effect.
yeager, do you think there is any difference to having no pain and being drug induced into a comatose state? Do you call that being alive? And they dont let people have pain nowadays. They are very compassionate about it. Of course, they cannot FEEL what the patient feels, but they are by no means ignorant of it.
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[ edited by neroter12 on Aug 29, 2004 11:52 PM ]
of course they can't FEEL the pain, but they are truly unaware of what it's like. It's sort of like saying to a mother who has buried a child. "I know what you must be going through". When in fact, the only other person who knows what that is like is another mother who has buried a child. Yes, I know that is emotional pain, and is different than physical pain. But physical pain is physical pain.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
Also, the person being assisted by Dr. Kevorkian does not end up in a comatose state as you indicated. He/she uses the device called the suicide machine invented by Dr. K. It uses the following method.
It has three canisters or bottles mounted on a metal frame, about six inches wide by 18 inches high. Each bottle has a syringe that connects to a single IV line in the person's arm. The first bottle contains ordinary saline, or salt water. Another contains sleep-inducing barbiturates, and the third a lethal mixture of potassium chloride, which immediately stops the heart, and a muscle relaxant to prevent spasms during the dying process.
1. Kevorkian or an assistant begins the saline solution flow.
2. The person who wants to die must deliver the barbiturates by throwing a switch or pulling a string.
3. After that, either a timer or a mechanical device triggered by the person's falling arm as the drugs take effect starts the lethal drug flowing. The idea is for the deadly chemicals to enter the bloodstream only after the person is asleep. Death usually occurs within two minutes.
It seems to me this is a more dignified way of dying than laying in horrible pain for weeks on end in a hospital or nursing home. This person is going to die sooner or later anyway. Why make them suffer?
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on August 30, 2004 01:02:07 AM new
::This person is going to die sooner or later anyway. Why make them suffer? ::
Maybe because its not YOUR decision to make?
Far as I know, you are not the grantor of life so why should you think you are entitled to be the grantor of death?
You also seem to be contradicting exactly what I said in reference to FEELING somebody else's pain. MY point was just because they dont feel it as you do, does not make them ignorant of it. It would appear from your words you expect them to feel it, that that is in the only way thay can validate to you, it exists in order to be knowledgable about the fact that pain is real? They know pain exists in disease! I think you mumbling out of both sides of your mouth here.
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
posted on August 30, 2004 01:09:12 AM new
I may be mumbling out of both side of my mouth, but I am not mumbling out of my ass like you!
you said, Maybe because its not YOUR decision to make?
I didn't say it should ever be MY decision to make for any one. I do think it should be MY DECISION FOR ME if I want it! And it should be the decision available TO ANYONE THAT WANTS IT!
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
On Monday August 23, a guy who I worked with for 20 years died. He was experiencing multi organ failure. His heart was failing, he also had congestive heart failure. Along with this, he was going through kidney and liver failure. In the last days of his life he at 51 years old, had several strokes. He was on life support. How did he die? They pulled the plug. That's how. Why? He was living in a vegetative state and his family made a decision for him as he was unable to do it for himself. He was going to die anyway and the family ended the hard ship of watching their love one helplessly lay there in a hospital bed. There was no real reason for keeping him on live support.
Does that make any sense to you?
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on August 30, 2004 07:47:23 AM new
My mother had a terminal illness and I took care of her for 4 years until she died. I am all for Euthanasia. Those that are not should go thru the pain of seeing a loved one dying before their eyes and maybe it would change their minds.
posted on August 30, 2004 08:01:43 AM new
I am all for Euthanaisa, especially if the liar crowfarm were to be one of Dr Kervorkian's patients... but then we would lose doolittle and maggienuthins... what a shame.
In reality I am against it... if the pain is that bad, you are not thinking rationally... sort of like peepa trying to explain his reasons for voting... which I don't think he really knows who it is...
However, I watched my grandfather die of lung cancer and alzheimers... it was emotionally draining, but as long as there is hope, there can be a cure, miracles do happen.
Suicide is wrong. So lets call it what it is... Suicide or assisted murder.
posted on August 30, 2004 08:11:04 AM new
OK, now a death wish from twelve.
"I am all for Euthanaisa, especially if the liar crowfarm were to be one of Dr Kervorkian's patients... but then we would lose doolittle and maggienuthins... what a shame."
Are you so afraid of us that you wish us dead, linda ????????
Ya, know, I might be insulting but I have never delivered a death threat to any poster.
Twelve, You are one sick, cowardly , scared, sociopathic, shriveled up piece of garbage.
posted on August 30, 2004 08:28:38 AM new
Most people wouldn't let a beloved pet suffer a painful death and will euthanize to abate the suffering. So what is the problem with extending the same choice to a human?
posted on August 30, 2004 08:42:16 AM new
Libra - nice example with the stroke victim but I was wondering how many people you know that "snapped back" from the final stages of Aids and Alzheimers?
Also - at the risk of once again being accused of "jumping all over you", I feel inclined to let you know that despite my absense, there is still only 1 N in Fenix.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 30, 2004 08:54:09 AM new
crowfarm said: "Are you so afraid of us that you wish us dead, linda ????????
You really do have some serious problems, crowfarm.
Anyone who has been told as many times as you have been that twelve and I are NOT the same person....have said that when you continue to make this false accusation, that it only makes the rest of what you post hard to believe....STILL hasn't changed your twisted mind.
Get help, crowfarm. It's your hatred that you continue to post....not mine.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Those are only two reasons why we need to:
posted on August 30, 2004 09:44:40 AM new
Fenix you and crowfarm are on the same page. Great things haven't changed.
I stated my opinion and now again you are questioning it. Get over it. My opinion is just that my opinion and I have a right to have it. My user ID has a 63 after it but I don't jump on you. How long were you really gone.......?
Maybe you should ask Nancy Reagon that question. Do you think she could have done that to her husband?
My mother had a terrible stroke, she fought with us, called us terrible names but it was the disease that was doing that. There were days we hated her, but my sister and I stood by her. It's called love, There is no way we could have done that. She snapped out of it and became a very nice person as she was before the stroke. Nobody can predict the future, if that future had been taken away we would never had the chance to say we loved her again. So you see fenix it does happen and it did happen to us. I also have a very sick brother but he wouldn't do that either..It's called believing in God...
posted on August 30, 2004 10:00:37 AM new
We don't need Dr. J !
Just disagree with a neocon.....
Extexbill, "As you probably know, "everyone" in Texas carries a legal gun. I have a small ranch with several pecan trees. Crows eat three things: vermin, roadkill and PECANS. Therefore I shoot crows on sight. CROWfarm, come on down for a visit.
Adios all. "
Ya, name calling is SSOOOOO negative but death threats are the neocons idea of great fun!
I'm posting THIS neocon's hatred. Twisted mind....NAW, he's just a Republican!
posted on August 30, 2004 10:31:45 AM new
Libra dearest - I have never in my life been ashamed to take credit or blame, whatever the case may be, for my beliefs or statements. Your accusations of multiple IDs lends itself to an implication of a level of immaturity which I am sorry to inform you, I do not possess.
As for Crow and I being on the same page.. what the hell are you talking about? Please show me where I `have resorted to name calling and insults. You toss that accusation out at me repeatedly but when called upon to back it up you quickly leave the thread never to return.
As for the spelling of the name - once again, and I will try to type this slowly for you... Fenix is a word. Fennix is a misspelling of the word. If you wish to continue to misspell the word, by all means, please continue to do so. I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that you would not wish to continuously misspell something. If in fact the number 6 and 3 have recently been added to the correct spelling of Libra, or if you would simply prefer that I include them when addressing you, please let me know so that I can correct my usage. I promise not to view that correction as a personal attack.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 30, 2004 10:43:36 AM new
This subject is so complex. For those who have endured the suffering and painful death of a loved one, I can understand how you would view euthanasia as a merciful way to end their suffering.
I can also understand the views of those, who because of religious belief, could not condone suicide for any reason.
That is why I believe it must be a personal choice. I do believe that it should be a legal choice.
But having said this, how can it be a personal choice, when in fact, with a humane assisted suicide, there will be others involved.. so now it becomes a personal choice for more than the person who is suffering.
Libra has made a point when she said that there are instances when a person may recover, where it was thought hopeless..
Others have mentioned that in actuality, euthanasia is being practiced, but not acknowledged .... who is making the decisions?
Then I think it was CC who said that a Doctor should only have one role, that of healer..
Others ask what is moral or ethical about allowing your loved one to suffer a terrible death.
All these are valid points.
Now as far as Dr.K is concerned, I believe he thought he was being sympathetic, moral and ethical assisting those who asked for his help.. I don't believe he was some kind of serial killer with murder as his agenda.
But I think flaunting what he was doing, in the face of the law.. was his downfall. He thought he would show the world how this was a humane way to end the suffering of terminally ill people... and a large percent of the population did support his views.. but he thought he was above the law. In my opinion, I don't believe he should have been imprisoned..
posted on August 30, 2004 11:01:47 AM new
Libra - once again you continue to bring up ailments that people can recover from and ignore the fact that the diseases I have mentioned do not fall within those parameters.
I am referring to those final few weeks of terminal cancer, AIDS, Alzheimer's, where all hope and quality of life is gone and all that is being prolonged is misery. Why, if we have the ability to relieve a person of that pain and misery should we deny the victim that relief? As was mentioned before, we are more than willing to put a beloved animal out of its misery, why not a beloved family member?
If you want to bring up personal stories, I watched a close friend be eaten by AIDS manifesting itself in the form of lung and colon cancer. After coming out of the hospital one last time in what we knew were his final weeks he was able to have an amazing day with family and friends and knowing that there would not be a better day for him he decided to leave the world on an up note.
No one begrudged him his decision - it was his to make. He believed deeply in god but did not believe that god would begrudge him deciding that the last memory that those who loved him should have of him was one of a glimpse of the funny, loving, quick witted person we had know most of his life. He did not believe that god would begrudge him the decision to forgo more pain and agony and further loss of dignity when it only lead to the same end he had already decided upon.
my last memory of my grandfather is a skeletal man, riddled with tubes and ventilators, long since robbed of everything I had known him to be. My last memory of my grandmother was a comatose woman ravaged by cancer rather than the jolly laughing chubby woman I adored all my life. My last memory of my friend however was one of a beautiful person, surrounded by friends and family, joking and reminiscing. It is a wonderful image made all the more so by the thought that he is the one that decided that it should be the last one.
Simple question for you... If someone close to you with a terminal ailment made the decision that they were ready to die and asked for your help, would you give it? If someone that you knew would never want to live in a vegetative state ended up in one, would you agree to pulling the plug?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Aug 30, 2004 11:04 AM ]
Why do you keep bring this up to me. I told you my answer and you seem not to beable to grasp that. Get over it Fenix I do not believe in it. Case closed, at least my case is closed.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. There can you understand that........Go find someone else to pester or help crowfarm she needs it.
posted on August 30, 2004 11:47:53 AM new
Nero, to answer your question - quite a few years ago, Canada would not give terminally ill patients heroin because they were afraid if there was a slim chance of recovery, they'd be addicted. Can you believe it? I don't feel ANY pain drug should be with-held from people suffering from chronic pain or dying people and as far as I know, Canada still has a thing about using it. I mean, why have these powerful pain killers if you don't want to use them? Who are they for?
And for those into God, it's not "God's will" that people die painfully and slowly - give me a break.
Kiara, Nero is just very jealous of our good looks and intelligence. It's easy to mix us up.
Prevent Bigotry through Education.
