posted on December 9, 2004 04:31:29 AM new"Christ back in Christmas"
Religious groups sing out at parade
Protesters say event being "too politically correct"
By Felisa Cardona
Denver Post Staff Writer
Post / Cyrus McCrimmon
Carolers organized by Faith Bible Chapel sing Friday at the Parade of Lights to protest the exclusion of the churchs float.
Steve Schweitzberger carried a basket with a tiny baby Jesus doll inside that had a paper teardrop falling from its eye.
The baby came with a sign that read, "It's my party, and I'll cry if I want to."
Schweitzberger said he thought the display was appropriate considering religious groups were not allowed to participate in the downtown Parade of Lights this weekend.
"I thought it was strange that they would exclude the birthday boy from his own party," Schweitzberger said. "Everybody knows that Christmas is not spelled with an X."
Schweitzberger joined a group of about 1,000 people - some from churches throughout the Denver metro area - to sing religious hymns before the parade started in a peaceful protest of the policy.
They passed out cocoa and sang "Silent Night" and "Joy to the World."
The parade was not interrupted by the crowd.
The Downtown Denver Partnership, a private nonprofit group that stages the parade, rejected Faith Bible Chapel's bid to have a float in the event.
Jim Basey, president of the business group, issued a statement last week apologizing to anyone who may have been offended by the decision.
He said he would review the policy after this year's parade and continue to listen to community concerns.
Leslie Hanks and her brother, Bruce Pettigrew, waved pictures of Jesus and a cross as people passed by Tremont Place and 17th Street before the parade started.
"Jesus is the reason for the season," Hanks said. "They are just being too politically correct, and it's pathetic. They don't have any problems making us Christians feel bad."
posted on December 9, 2004 06:17:35 AM new
I agree, neroter that it's wrong to exclude from a traditional religious holiday parade any religion that want's to participate. Were they concerned about offending those celebrating the Jewish holiday?
Probably the department of commerce and the dollar bill is at the bottom of this controvesy...how to attract and keep the shoppers happy is the name of their game...unfortunately.
posted on December 9, 2004 06:24:17 AM new
Well, thats the whole point, Helen. Christmas is about the birth of Christ. The Lord, God, Savior. Thats what is supposed to be celebrated. Hanukkah is a whole different thing. How do you have a "Christmas" parade and exclude those who wish sing religious-based carrols?
Yes, it is all about the dollar.
[ edited by neroter12 on Dec 9, 2004 09:00 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 08:52:22 AM new
Oh c'mon you guys!
For years Christmas been about
drinking,
football,
over-spending,
over-eating,
greed-crazed hyper kid's,
adults who want to brag/complain about how much they spent.
It is not soley about the birth of jesus it has evolved into a secular holiday for football worshippers and women who want to be martyrs.. Puhleeese!
If you want to make it completely religious head to Israel!
If you want to keep YOUR personal religious belief FINE but keep it out of PUBLIC places!
posted on December 9, 2004 08:56:51 AM new
First of all, the Denver Parade is a "Parade of Lights", it is not a Christmas Parade. It is a holiday seasonal parade put on by downtown business partnership. It has been a strictly non denominational parade for years with no complaints and no hassles, just a wonderful friendly community event where people got together and brought the kids and went downtown to see the floats and marvel at the marching bands who are also decked out in tons of lights themselves and had a great time until the church deciuded to turn it into a protest opportunity.
The church, that one week before the parade made a big deal of being denied having a float, played the media. They were told back in the spring that their request had been denied. They just decided to make an issue of it right before the parade.
You may object to someone having a non denominational holiday parade. What I object to is a church that made a very conscious and overt decision to turn a fun and friendly city tradition into a religious protest.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 09:03 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 09:04:32 AM newIt is a Holiday season parade...
Well said fenix. A Holy season based on the birth of Christ, culminating on December 25th. Maybe you'll be reminded of that next time you utter "Merry Christmas", or see that sign anywhere.
posted on December 9, 2004 10:02:26 AM new
Yep...I agree neroter. "Jesus is the reason for the season." [unknown author]
To exclude any *because* of religion is discrimination. In some cases they don't discriminate against gays....but DO discriminate against people of faith.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on December 9, 2004 10:12:25 AM new
Actually - I realize that Christians want this to be soley a Christian Holiday season but it has not been for a long time. There are are millions of families and even more retailers that celebrate it as a family holiday not a religious one. I find it absolutely amazing that Christians feel that everyone should respect them and their beliefs but refuse to do the same in return. This parade has been going on for 29 years without religious involvement and now all of a sudden you think it's wrong?
Incredible.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 10:22 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 10:13:49 AM new
Was that in response to my question, Fenix? Christmas is wierd when else do you sit around a dying tree and eat candy out of your socks?
posted on December 9, 2004 10:19:49 AM new
Maggie - no - this is the response to your question
If a religious group would like to put forth the money and man hours involved in putting on a parade then more power to them. I have no problem with it whatsoever.
What I have a problem with is a religious group that feels that they are above the rules. The Downtown Denver Partnership (Or whatever their name is now) for 29 years has put on this parade. They don't have a whole lot of rules but one they do have is that there are no religious overtones. No Churches. No Catholic, Christian, Pagan, Muslim, Jewish, Baptist, or otherwise. It is a private organization that obtains proper permits, pays the city for extra police and fire services, etc. It's their game and if you want to play, you do it by their rules. If you wants to play by different rules, you should host your own game.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 10:24 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 10:25:30 AM new
"What I object to is a church that made a very conscious and overt decision to turn a fun and friendly city tradition into a religious protest."
Why should they be any different than any other group?
What does gay have to do with Thanksgiving? Why do we have to have a "gay" float in a Thanksgiving parade?? Political correctness is a least commmon denomionator thing.
posted on December 9, 2004 10:39:15 AM new
[Religious Intolerance] Pastor offered aid if parade suit pursued
Item 9579 Posted: Thu, Dec. 02 2004 Weblogged by ReligionNewsBlog.com
Permalink to this article (Click link to copy to clipboard)
Rocky Mountain News (USA), Dec. 2, 2004
http://www.rockymountainnews.com
By Jean Torkelson
Former U.S. attorney cites 1st Amendment in float-barring flap
Former U.S. Attorney Mike Norton offered Wednesday to explore a lawsuit on behalf of a pastor whose church was barred from entering a Christmas float in Denver's Parade of Lights this weekend.
"If he has an interest in carrying it to the next level, we're ready," said Norton, who now works for the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund, which takes on religious liberty cases, primarily for Christian clients.
Norton's was among a deluge of calls to Pastor George Morrison the day after the Rocky Mountain News reported on his attempt to join the holiday parade, which celebrates its 30th year Friday and Saturday night in downtown Denver.
Religious Intolerance
Research resources on religious freedom, tolerance, and intolerance
Morrison wanted to enter a float featuring multicultural Christian themes and a Merry Christmas message. Parade officials told a representative from Morrison's church, the 4,000-member Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, that religious messages aren't allowed because they might offend others.
The Parade of Lights is produced by a private nonprofit organization, the Downtown Denver Partnership. It receives 61 percent of its revenue from a consortium of 350 private commercial property owners whose goal is to promote the "improvement and enhancement" of the city.
Partnership Vice President Susan Rogers Kark said the parade doesn't receive public money.
Even if the parade is a private entity, there still may be First Amendment issues at play, Norton said. The one-hour parade uses downtown city streets and is promoted as a citywide event.
"There are issues relating to whether the location is a public forum for free speech purposes, and if so, whether the entity involved has a right to suppress some but not all speech," said Norton, who is the husband of Colorado Lt. Gov. Jane Norton.
Kark said the parade hasn't allowed religious-themed entrants for at least the 10 years that she has been its director. She acknowledged that it may have been different in the early years of the event.
"Many things have changed as we look back 30 years, in terms of being sensitive to fact that there are other traditions" that may find religious displays offensive today, she said Wednesday.
Kark reiterated the parade's position that several groups are being allowed to march as examples of ethnic diversity.
Those include the Two Spirit Society, which honors gay American Indians as holy people, and an Asian group that performs dances to ward off evil spirits at the start of the Chinese New Year. Kark said they will not be expressing religious messages.
Churches have "bombarded" the offices of Faith Bible Chapel, offering support, said Janette Rasor, Morrison's assistant. She said many callers say they plan to join church members along the parade route at 6 p.m. Friday, one hour before the parade begins. The group is meeting at 17th and Tremont streets to sing Christmas carols and pass out hot chocolate.
Meanwhile, Morrison, who is in Tennessee this week, said he spent virtually all of Wednesday being interviewed on local radio and TV shows.
His assistant said the pastor also has been asked to be on Laura Ingraham's nationally syndicated talk radio show.
Morrison said he has been so busy that he hasn't had a chance to talk to Norton about a possible lawsuit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 9, 2004 10:40 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 10:55:31 AM new
Ya, that's right...have deeply moving, respectful, religious celebration of Jesus' birth with a downtown parade !
It's what Jesus would've wanted !
That way you can show off how religious you are! Wow! Great idea !
Jeez....whatever you do don't go to church or into your own home to honor him....how will anyone know how "holy" you are ?????
posted on December 9, 2004 11:06:15 AM new
I agree with what you posted Fenix.
.
I was not clear on the law.. if it permits public parades with a Christian theme or not.
I know there are laws against public displays of faith,(statues etc.) so my question is.. is it legal to hold a religious parade?
I am not sure where the line is between Political Correctness and the Laws of the country.
posted on December 9, 2004 11:21:42 AM new
fenix, the thing of it is that the [i]
.. even more retailers that celebrate.. [/i]
soley wanted to "exclude" the very group that the holiday came into existance for and to who it means the most.
Its bad enough that retailers have made every single holiday into their cash cow. Do they really have to deny that this particular holiday has anything to do with Christ while their at it? I dont think so. As if a float with a manger scene and some people singing hark the herald angels or whatever, was really going to ruin the parade, or offend anybody attending a "Holiday" festivity. It is so selfish and greedy - and goes against every bit of reasoning that these retailers are even able to make money for a 'season' that probably carries them all year
--
[ edited by neroter12 on Dec 9, 2004 11:22 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 11:29:12 AM new
Maggie - as long the parade is not funded with public money and they get a legal permit they can do whatever they want. There is no law against religious based parades. there is a huge lit Merry Christmas sign on the Denver capitol building right now and
BTW - isn't it funny that all of this flack started on week before the parage when the church has known since last spring that their application was denied?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 9, 2004 12:02:19 PM new
I dont live in Denver, fenix. But it is alright. I wouldn't go anyway, nor spend a dime by any of those greedy retailers of that association.
I know you cant see the connection of Christ and Christmas, but thats where the whole act of celebration came from.
Sorry, you cant change that fact to suit your secular retailers mind-set.
Linda: Those include the Two Spirit Society, which honors gay American Indians as holy people
Now that is funny!! Two holy gay indians? Are they included because they are gay, indian, or holy? lol!
posted on December 9, 2004 12:05:05 PM new
Here is another example of the Anti-Christmas thing being carried to far.
Christmas carols and other kinds of music will again be played on a Gurnee-area school district's buses after a short-lived ban gave new meaning to the "Silent Night" season.
At a special meeting Wednesday night, the Woodland School District 50 board told Supt. Dennis Conti to allow radio music on the buses again. The decision brought applause from audience members, who had packed the board room. Some began singing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas."
Conti said he was disappointed that the board did not support his ban, which he contended was a matter of safety, not Christmas music.
Sandra Hartogh, a parent who threatened to sue the school district, said she was thrilled by the board's decision.
"I'm glad the kids have their music back. There's no need to go further," she said.
The ban was launched after a pupil had a disagreement with a bus driver over Christianity after Christmas music was heard on the bus. The child was offended by the driver's comments, Conti said.
The pupil's father called school officials to complain, and Conti said he realized for the first time that radio music was being played on buses. He said he decided that the radios should be turned off for safety reasons so bus drivers could hear students or emergency vehicles.
"To me, it didn't make any difference whether it was Christmas music or rock 'n' roll," Conti said.
Lisa Bixler of Gurnee, who has an 11-year-old son in school, said she was surprised that Christmas music could offend someone.
"No matter where you go this season, there's Christmas music," she said.
Bixler, a bus driver for another school district, said music can be an effective way to get children to be quiet during the ride.
This was the second time in the last week that parents criticized a school district for removing Christmas-related cheer. At Spring Grove Elementary School in McHenry County, pupils sang holiday songs at a celebration last week without mentioning Christ or the Christmas story.
That prompted a parent and a Chicago lawyer associated with the non-profit Alliance Defense Fund to say the school's concerts diminished Christmas by unfairly censoring Christian references.
The lawyer, Andy Norman, sent letters last month to about 350 school districts in the Chicago area informing superintendents that legal precedents "allow and sometimes require officials to permit religious expression in public schools."
Norman also took on the Woodland District, on behalf of Hartogh and her husband, Kenneth, to argue that music, including Christmas carols, "will serve legitimate secular purposes of educating and entertaining" students, according to a letter he wrote to the district.
"Your order that no Christmas carols may be played . . . constitutes an illegal suppression of the rights of our clients' children under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution," he wrote to school officials.
"It also reflects illegal hostility directed against Christianity," he wrote.
The Woodland ban prompted complaints from parents who questioned the censoring of "Jingle Bells," "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and other Christmas songs.
"It was not like they were playing Handel's `Messiah,'" said Hartogh, who has three children in the district. "Quite frankly, I would rather my children listen to music that has some kind of value to it, regardless of religion, rather than rap music."
Hartogh questioned the timing of the music ban, saying, "Why after all these years of playing the radios have they decided it's a safety issue?"
Her 6th-grade daughter, Victoria, said the rule was confusing.
"It's weird because in our classroom, our teacher lets us listen to Christmas music and Hanukkah music," she said. "What is the difference if you are playing it in the classroom? Why can't you play it on the bus?"
Bus driver Mindy Carlino of Grayslake said the drivers were told Friday not to play holiday music.
On Wednesday morning, an announcement was made over the dispatch radio system that Christmas music was banned, she said.
Later in the afternoon, another announcement told drivers that radios should be turned off.
"It was just shocking. What? No Christmas music? What about `Frosty the Snowman?'" said Carlino, who has two children in the district and drives a bus for special-education pupils. "The music calms kids down. We keep it soft."
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
--------------------------------------
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on December 9, 2004 01:13:59 PM new
:: I know you cant see the connection of Christ and Christmas, but thats where the whole act of celebration came from.::
Ya think? Nero, I have not spoken to you like you are an idiot nor have I been conscending so in the spirit of treating others the way you would like to be treated what do you say you knock it off.
The reality of the situation is that Christmas is as much a Hallmark Holiday as it is religious one. As unfortunate as you may feel it to be, this season long ago became non exclusionary. You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy it.
:: Sorry, you cant change that fact to suit your secular retailers mind-set.::
You shove that remark on two levels.
1) Just a tad more conscending than called for.
2) I'm a wholesaler, not a retailer.
As long as you are advocating boycotting companies based on the Parade.... there are a few national particpants.... Wells Fargo, Ford Motor Co, Starbucks and I guess you should add NBC since their local affiliate is the sponsor, is I remember right, they are a Gannett broadcasting co so there may a newspaper in your area that shares ownership but you might have to check on that one - it's been awhile.
Too bad you have such negative feelings about it. It really is a great tradition.... amazing that it could have existed for three decades without all this fuss. Even more amazing is that all this fuss is being brought on by the same Christians that get so upset when secular groups attempt to involve themselves in Christian events and issues.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 01:23 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 02:53:19 PM newThe history of Christmas dates back over 4000 years. Many of our Christmas traditions were celebrated centuries before the Christ child was born. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires, the yule log, the giving of gifts, carnivals(parades) with floats, carolers who sing while going from house to house, the holiday feasts, and the church processions can all be traced back to the early Mesopotamians.
posted on December 9, 2004 03:21:58 PM new
ROFLMHO!!!
-------------------------------
Sounds to me like the Denver people would like to do as the article says.....Put Christ back in Christmas. Maybe they're part of the growing group that wants to start instilling more values and morals into their children...feeling that things have become so laxed changes are necessary. Maybe many will agree that the continuation of removing everything related to why this holiday has always been celebrated here in this way....is getting out-of-hand and has gone beyond ridiculous. I sure never thought I'd live to see the day when a sign that says "Merry Christmas" is not allowed. Foolishness...
If enough people call for a Merry Christmas sign to be on a float sponsored by a Church...then the local business owners will try to please their potential patrons. Their protest of songs the day of the parade did draw attention to their plight.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 9, 2004 03:23 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 04:49:48 PM new
oh I dont know, fenix, I thought your telling me, "then dont go to the parade", was a bit trite. And all you keep posting to me, is that this is about a season - a "non-exclusionary season" - EXCUSE ME, but wth is that? It's CHRISTMAS. A day of renewal and hope for millions of believers worldwide! You want to deny that? But it seems to me THAT PART of the 'season' should be totally obliterated in public events and elsewhere, as it appears to be in your train of thought here. No room to equate Christmas with Christ, right? It's a just a season?
This is still very much a religious Holiday to many who dont buy into the whole scheme of what NBC broadcasting wants to mesmerize with to line their pockets. There is a whole bunch of people not into commerializm and that includes what the tv or newspapers offer. Just because you dont hold the concept that Christmas is about the birth of Christ, doesnt mean Christians will not feel offended at being "excluded" from a community parade, because they do, and they have every right to say so, as part of that community, as well as anybody else. If the indian shamans were told they couldnt wear their sacred tigertooth, or indian hertiage garb- whatever- in the parade because its being exclusionary, I bet it wouldnt sit too right with them or you.
And if its purely a "seasonal" thing and doesnt relate to Christmas, they'd be having this parade in July, or on Presidents day. So stop telling me its a season with no reason except to spend money.
posted on December 9, 2004 05:17:27 PM new
::Sounds to me like the Denver people would like to do as the article says.....Put Christ back in Christmas.::
I think that is what you want to believe Linda but it is a much bigger deal to the fundamentalist lobby than it was to the people of Denver. It was a great parade, with a record crowd and went off without a hitch. The people of Denver seem to be able to tell the difference between a real issue and a publicity stunt and the fact that the church waited 9 months after the denial of the application left a bad taste in the mouths of many.
I am not quite sure what you are referring to with the Merry Christmas sign on the float. I don't think that was at issuel since the parade route went past the state capitol building wihich has a HUGE Merry Christmas sign on it, not to mention a Menorah on the lawn. What was at issue was the overtly religious float and choir singing only christian carols.
There is long time rule banning religious and political messages in order to keep the parade from becoming a polarizing event. Of course for some reason Christians simple cannot allow that to continue.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 05:28 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2004 05:23:45 PM new
::a "non-exclusionary season" - EXCUSE ME, but wth is that? It's CHRISTMAS.::
No sweetheart it's a Holiday Season . Depending on the year this Parade has taken place during Haunaka and Ramadan as well. It is Chistmas to you because you are a Christian. The problem with Christians of late is that everyone is supposed to be so tolerant and understanding of their beliefs but if you ask them to have the same respect for your own you may as well be a god family and country hating heathen.
Not everyone in Denver is a Christian Nero and not everyone wants to have god shoved down their throat. That may be why it is a "Parade of Lights" and not a "Christmas Parade".
::I thought your telling me, "then dont go to the parade", was a bit trite.::
Actually Nero I was not being snide, I was being quite honest. If you disagree with something then don't take part in it but you don't have the right to demand that a 30 year tradition that has harmed no one suddenly be changed because it does not fall in line with your personal ideals.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 05:24 PM ]
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 9, 2004 05:28 PM ]
