Rumsfeld Gets Earful From Troops
Complaints Cite Equipment Woes, Extended Tours and Pay Delays
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 9, 2004; Page A01
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, speaking in Kuwait yesterday to troops deploying into Iraq, got an earful of complaints about poor combat equipment, personnel policies that keep soldiers in the Army beyond their terms of enlistment, and other issues that reflect the strains the war in the Middle East is placing on the U.S. military.
In one of the exchanges during the town-hall-style meeting, Spec. Thomas Wilson complained that he and his comrades were rooting through junkyards to find improvised armor for their military vehicles to protect against bomb blasts and small-arms attacks.
"A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon,"
said Wilson, an airplane mechanic with the Tennessee Army
National Guard, according to a transcript of the meeting released
by the Pentagon. "Our vehicles are not armored. We're
digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass
that's already been shot up . . . picking the best out of this scrap
to put on our vehicles to take into combat.
We do not have proper . . . vehicles to carry with us north."
Rumsfeld replied: "As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
He added: "If you think about it, you can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up."
Another soldier, from a logistical support unit based at Fort Bragg, N.C., complained that she was being kept in the Army against her
wishes by a Pentagon "stop-loss" order.
"It is something you prefer not to have to use, obviously, in a perfect world," Rumsfeld responded. "It's been used as little as possible."
When a third soldier, from the Idaho Army National Guard,
complained that Guard units were being issued "antiquated"
equipment inferior to that given to regular Army units, Rumsfeld
said that the Army is trying to be equitable but that
somebody has to get the older gear.
The one question that seemed to give Rumsfeld pause came
from a lieutenant colonel who said that many of the soldiers
in his unit are having trouble receiving all the pay due them,
causing problems for their families back home who are being
pestered by collection agencies.
"Can someone here get the details of the unit he's talking about?" Rumsfeld asked. "That's just not right."
As a whole, Rumsfeld's responses provoked a wave of criticism from congressional Democrats. Rep. Ted Strickland (D-Ohio) called Rumsfeld's remarks "callous." Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) termed them "contemptuous." Sen. Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) labeled them "stunning."
"When I visit Iraq, I ride around in an armored vehicle, and I am sure the secretary does as well," Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.) said in a statement. "If it is good enough for the big shots, it is good enough for every American soldier."
Some military experts agreed with the criticism. "Any problem mentioned, he's in denial," said retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey.
"Troop frustration is growing," especially as some soldiers
head back to Iraq for their second occupation tour
as the security situation there deteriorates, said another
retired four-star general, who spoke on the condition of
anonymity. Officers and senior sergeants are worried,
he noted, because, in his view, "we are breaking a small,
great professional force."
The series of pointed questions shot at Rumsfeld reflect a consequence of the Pentagon's increasing reliance on National Guard and reserve units to carry out the U.S. mission in Iraq. Almost 45 percent of the 130,000 Army troops there now are drawn from the part-time components. Unlike active-duty troops, Guard and reserve troops tend to be older, more "civilianized" in their behavior and less deferential toward authority.
Some Guard units preparing to deploy to Iraq have been vocal about their morale problems, and an Army Reserve unit already there made headlines in October when it refused to carry out a convoy mission it considered too dangerous. Earlier this week, eight U.S. soldiers serving in Iraq and Kuwait filed a lawsuit challenging the "stop-loss" policy, which forces them to serve beyond the end of their terms of enlistment.
Rumsfeld's spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, said the meeting was hardly unusual. "The range of questions was quite typical," he said at a Pentagon briefing. "I thought it was a very standard event."
He also said that the question posed by Wilson, the Tennessee Guardsman, was misleading, in that it made it appear that soldiers are being sent into a combat zone in unarmored vehicles. Any Humvees -- the military's jeeplike light trucks -- that lack armor are carried into Iraq atop flatbed trucks and, once there, are used only inside the relative safety of U.S. bases, he said.
The Army is moving to produce as many armored Humvees as it can, he added. In the fall of 2003, there were only 15 made each month, he said, but after the need for more became clear, the rate of production was boosted to 450 a month.
Some military experts agreed with Di Rita in finding the meeting unexceptional. "This is what leaders are supposed to do, meet with troops and get their honest feedback," said retired Army Lt. Col. James Jay Carafano, now an analyst at the Heritage Foundation. "No one should be surprised when our troops say what they mean; that's what makes the American soldier great."
Likewise, Robert Andrews, a former Pentagon official, said: "This is vintage Rumsfeld. He doesn't talk down to these guys. He talks to general officers the same way."
But some others were more critical. Part of the problem, said Daniel Goure, another former Pentagon official, is that Rumsfeld acts less like a head coach and more like the owner of the football team. "For this reason, he doesn't do well at 'win one for the Gipper'-type speeches," he said.
Rumsfeld basically told this serviceman, "screw you!" Obviously "400 a month" is not going to resolve the problem to which the soldier pointed. And it simply is not true, as Rumsfeld implied, that soldiers in a tank are as much at risk as they are in an un-armored truck or other vehicle. There have been a number of reports of rocket-propelled grenades just bouncing off Abrams tanks. The soldiers know when they are being made fools of.
Rumsfeld's dictum that "you go to war with the army you have" begs so many questions it would take days to list them all. But just for starters, let's point out that the officer corps wanted to send more like 300,000 troops to Iraq in March of 2003, not the 100,000 that Rumsfeld insisted on. Rumsfeld's mania for turning the entire US military into special operations forces ignores the need to keep order in the aftermath of a war. Paul Bremer admitted that "we never had enough troops on the ground" and that the lack led to the orgy of looting, which the US was not in a position to stop and which there was not even much will to stop. The looting in turn paid for the incipient guerrilla war (and a good deal of the looting was from weapons depots like al-Qaqaa, despite the Bush administration's denials).
So Rumsfeld didn't go to war with the army he had. He went to war with a much reduced military force, to make some sort of weird point.
And then Rumsfeld ordered the Iraqi army itself dissolved. And he ordered that thousands of former Baath members be fired from their jobs, even as school teachers. These steps created a huge recruitment pool for the Sunni guerrilla movement, which began blowing up US troops. Why would you dump 400,000 trained soldiers into unemployment lines just after invading a country? And the dissolution of the Iraqi military ensured that the US troops would have to try to keep order in the country, a task for which they were not trained.
So from the beginning to the end, Rumsfeld put the troops in this position. All the disastrous decisions were Rumsfeld's (and Bush's and Cheney's). These decisions weren't made by the soldier who asked in Kuwait why he had to rummage around in scrap metal to armor his vehicle. And the decisions weren't necessary or wise. They were arbitrary, and were made by civilians over the objections of the uniformed military.
This open dishonesty of Rumsfeld and Bush is becoming so brazen now that they have their second term that it is breathtaking. A few brave souls in the press are beginning to dare call the administration on the lies.
posted on December 9, 2004 08:40:01 AM new
"you go to war with the army you have"...why not consider that if you are bound and determined to start a war you have an army that is large enough and equiped well enough to win it.
Cole’s proclamations reveal an all too-typical mindset for a Middle East specialist. He is blindly anti-Israel to the point of being an antisemitic conspiracy theorist, an apologist for radical Islam, and someone who despises American public opinion. And try as he does to discount allegations of bias in academia, his stunningly crude conclusions accepts the point: “someone who has academic skills but is a Republican would just have enormous opportunities and could easily become a multi-millionnaire. In contrast, academics on the Left would not be welcome in corporate boardrooms.”[20]
MESA’s anti-American and anti-Israel bias is well known, making Cole’s selection aptly symbolic of a profession in crisis. But that the media turns to the strange mental world Juan Cole inhabits, a world filled with false facts, distortions, and sophism, with Jewish conspiracies and contempt for the American people, is a serious problem.
--------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
Linda, This topic is not about Israel. Do you have any original thoughts that you can offer about the facts of this case as seen on TV and as covered by all news media? You may read the transcript at the Department of Defense link below.
posted on December 9, 2004 11:18:19 AM new
LOL - Did you miss that what I WAS commenting on was your constant use of juan cole opinions, helen? The man many believe is "an apologist for radical Islam".
Remember, like you, I can comment on whatever I'd like to. No double standards being allowed here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on December 9, 2004 11:27:07 AM new
Uh oh, Linda didn't follow the rules as set forth by our very own board monitor.
Shame on you, Linda, you know not to pisss off our board monitor by going off topic.
Well well, here's another thread that has been derailed.
Carry on!
posted on December 9, 2004 11:35:24 AM new
What possible bearing does Juan Cole's philosophy about Israel have on this topic, linda.
I see, as everyone else can see that you simply want to evade an embarrassing topic by changing the subject. Same old side stepping dance from you doused with smiley faces to make it appear OK.
posted on December 9, 2004 11:42:24 AM new
LOL - yellowstone.....oh yes....I'm in 'trouble' again....she just hates it that she can't control me. Only two had responded to the thread anyway and helen chose to ignore desquirrel's question - so I figured I'd let her know how much credence I give to anything *her* radical juan cole might say.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on December 9, 2004 11:42:56 AM new
On the one quoted opinion of Juan Cole, a resource link page describes Front Page Magazine as "Neocon crazyland; unknown dementia at large here" so take it for what it's worth.
posted on December 9, 2004 11:43:34 AM newRumsfeld replied: "As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
Wrong, you go to war with the Army you need to get the job done correctly. If you do not have the manpower, you draft. If you do not have the proper supplies, you make sure you have enough companies producing the items the troops need.
How has Bush spent all the money that he asked for to fight HIS war? If you ask me Bush is not supporting the troops because after 2 years they still do not have the supplies/equipment they need.
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
--------------------------------------
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on December 9, 2004 11:56:33 AM new
More Good News:
TORONTO - A former U.S. Marine in Iraq, testifying Wednesday at a hearing for an American military deserter seeking asylum in Canada, said several men in his unit were “psychopaths” who enjoyed killing unarmed Iraqi civilians who posed no threat.
Jimmy Massey, a staff sergeant who was in the Marines for 12 years and served three months in Iraq before being honorably discharged with post-traumatic stress syndrome, made the allegations before Canada’s Immigration and Refugee Board on the final day of an asylum hearing for Army Pfc. Jeremy Hinzman, 26.
Hinzman fled Fort Bragg, N.C., to Canada weeks before his 82nd Airborne Division was due to be deployed to Iraq. He had served three years in the Army but applied for conscientious objector status before his unit was sent to Afghanistan in 2002.
He is asking for refugee status for himself, his wife and 2-year-old son, claiming he would face persecution if forced to return to the United States. Hinzman’s lawyer, Jeffry House, said he would be the first American soldier granted political asylum in Canada if his petition succeeds.
Massey, who did not know Hinzman before the hearing, said Hinzman likely would have been forced to commit atrocities that violated the Geneva Conventions if he went to Iraq.
Killed despite surrendering
Massey, 33, of Waynesville, N.C., said his 7th Marines weapons company killed more than 30 civilians during a 48-hour period in April while stationed at a checkpoint in the southern Baghdad district of Rashid. The victims included unarmed demonstrators and a man who drove up in a car and raised his hands above his head in the universal symbol of surrender.
“I know in my heart that these vehicles that came up, that they were civilians,” he said. “But I had to act on my orders. It’s a struggle within my heart.”
The orders, he said, were to shoot at anyone who drove into what is known as the “red zone” surrounding the checkpoint because they could be suicide bombers.
Massey told the tribunal he got caught up in the frenzy and shot at civilians as well.
“I take full responsibility for my actions,” he said. “We deliberately gunned down people who were civilians. I became so concerned because I felt that Marines were honestly enjoying it. I saw plenty of Marines become psychopaths. They enjoyed the killing.”
Marine Corps denies allegations
The Marine Corps denied Massey’s allegations. “We’re not saying he’s lying, but his perception of what the situation was in relation to the rules of engagement, and what was justified, is different than ours,” said Maj. Douglas Powell, a spokesman for the Marine Corps at the Pentagon.
“It was investigated and any acts of wrongdoing, in regards to violations of the laws of war, the laws of armed conflict, were unsubstantiated,” he said.
Hinzman’s case comes just as Ottawa attempts to improve relations with Washington, which soured dramatically after Canada refused to send troops to Iraq.
Hinzman argued that the war in Iraq was illegal and fighting in it would make him a war criminal. He also said he would be persecuted if forced to return to the United States, noting that he now receives threatening e-mail. A typical term in a U.S. military prison for Army desertion is a year.
Fear of persecution
“After I would be released from jail, the chances of my getting a job would be slim and there would be social persecution,” he told reporters after his hearing.
Hinzman is one of three American military deserters seeking refugee status in Canada. Hearings for Brandon Hughey of the Army’s 1st Cavalry and David Sanders of the Navy will be heard by the refugee board in January.
House, an American lawyer who first came to Canada as a draft dodger during the Vietnam War, is representing the three Americans. He said 30,000-50,000 Americans who fled to Canada during Vietnam were allowed to settle there.
The tribunal is expected to make its decision early next year.
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
--------------------------------------
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on December 9, 2004 12:09:44 PM newYou may carry on with whatever you like.
Helen
Ok, how about if other than carry on, I carry over, carry forth, cash and carry, carry me back to old Virginia, helll i'll even hari carry if you'll show me how first.
posted on December 9, 2004 12:56:41 PM newOh and here comes our resident Canadian to take the side against those who are PRO-America. figures.
Linda_k my opinion has nothing to do with which side of the border I am on at this given moment... and it has nothing to do with being against America. DUH!
Was just saying that your sources such as Front Page Mag kind of suck.
I'll just add that they didn't prepare for a war because they were too dumb to take the advice of others and thought this was going to be a cakewalk.
You may carry on with whatever you like
Gotta agree with that one. Seems like no other opinions are welcome here unless it's to asskiss with the neocons.
posted on December 9, 2004 12:58:27 PM new
Give up, Helen, you are forgetting that lack of planning and lack of supplies contributing to more deaths of our troops does NOT bother neonazicons like linduh at all. That's why, as usual she's side-stepping around the issues....still can't answer my post in another thread where I embarrassed her AGAIN with the truth.
She's the queen of the Siskyou Two-Step, or in her case the, Siskyou SIDE-Step.
posted on December 9, 2004 01:39:44 PM new
Thanks for posting this Helen. I was watching some of this on the tube last night but fell asleep. One of the things that bothers me, is the humvee thing. If they're producing 450 a month, where are they going? The math doesn't fit. Also, the flatbeds that move these vehicles aren't armoured - what good is that?
Bush's visits to Canada, France and Germany aren't to smooth relations out, it's to ask for military support because he knows this war is going nowhere fast. Troops aren't being looked after properly by this unprepared government - that's the highest form of anti-Americanism you can get.
posted on December 9, 2004 02:21:11 PM newIt was a mistake to start a thread about anything other than sex and sleaze here.
A topic Helen is well aquainted with
Jimmy Massey, a staff sergeant who was in the Marines for 12 years and served three months in Iraq before being honorably discharged with post-traumatic stress syndrome, made the allegations before Canada’s Immigration and Refugee Board on the final day of an asylum hearing for Army Pfc. Jeremy Hinzman, 26.
Another future Demo Pres candidate walking in Kerry's shoes.
RUMSFELD SET UP; REPORTER PLANTED QUESTIONS WITH SOLIDER
Thu Dec 09 2004 11:49:38 ET
Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, now in Kuwait preparing to enter Iraq, and is filing articles for his newspaper. Pitts claims in a purported email that he coached soldiers to ask Defense Secretary Rumsfeld questions!
When reached Thursday morning, various Chattanooga Times Free Press staffers offered 'no comment' on the development.
From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM
To: Staffers
Subject: RE: Way to go
I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.
So during the Q&A session, one of my guys was the second person called on. When he asked Rumsfeld why after two years here soldiers are still having to dig through trash bins to find rusted scrap metal and cracked ballistic windows for their Humvees, the place erupted in cheers so loud that Rumsfeld had to ask the guy to repeat his question. Then Rumsfeld answered something about it being "not a lack of desire or money but a logistics/physics problem." He said he recently saw about 8 of the special up-armored Humvees guarding Washington, DC, and he promised that they would no longer be used for that and that he would send them over here. Then he asked a three star general standing behind him, the commander of all ground forces here, to also answer the question. The general said it was a problem he is working on.
The great part was that after the event was over the throng of national media following Rumsfeld- The New York Times, AP, all the major networks -- swarmed to the two soldiers I brought from the unit I am embedded with. Out of the 1,000 or so troops at the event there were only a handful of guys from my unit b/c the rest were too busy prepping for our trip north. The national media asked if they were the guys with the armor problem and then stuck cameras in their faces. The NY Times reporter asked me to email him the stories I had already done on it, but I said he could search for them himself on the Internet and he better not steal any of my lines. I have been trying to get this story out for weeks- as soon as I foud out I would be on an unarmored truck- and my paper published two stories on it. But it felt good to hand it off to the national press. I believe lives are at stake with so many soldiers going across the border riding with scrap metal as protection. It may be to late for the unit I am with, but hopefully not for those who come after.
The press officer in charge of my regiment, the 278th, came up to me afterwords and asked if my story would be positive. I replied that I would write the truth. Then I pointed at the horde of national media pointing cameras and mics at the 278th guys and said he had bigger problems on his hands than the Chattanooga Times Free Press. This is what this job is all about - people need to know. The solider who asked the question said he felt good b/c he took his complaints to the top. When he got back to his unit most of the guys patted him on the back but a few of the officers were upset b/c they thought it would make them look bad. From what I understand this is all over the news back home.
Thanks,
Lee
---------
EDWARD LEE PITTS FILED STORY ABOUT THE TROOPS BEFORE THE POW-WOW WITH RUMSFELD
278th Prepares To Enter Iraq By Adding Armor To Vehicles
By: By EDWARD LEE PITTS/Chattanooga Times Free Press
Source: The Greeneville Sun
12-08-2004
Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, now in Kuwait preparing to enter Iraq, and is filing articles for his newspaper. Those articles also are being posted on the Tennessee National Guard’s World Wide Web site at http://www.tnmilitary.org. The following article was posted on the National Guard’s Web site on Tuesday, Dec. 7.
CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait — As 278th officials work to ensure that all vehicles heading into Iraq in the coming weeks are armored, some soldiers in the Tennessee National Guard unit have learned they will fly into enemy territory.
Maj. Bobbie Sprouse, the 278th's supply and logistics officer, said the regiment is to fly more than half of its soldiers to bases somewhere northeast of Baghdad.
Once at their permanent camps, the 278th is to take over armored vehicles now being used by the unit the 278th is replacing, Maj. Sprouse said.
The regiment of nearly 4,000 soldiers is in Kuwait preparing for a year-long deployment to Iraq near the Iranian border, as part of the 42nd Infantry Division. The past November tied the mark for deadliest month since the invasion began in the spring of 2003.
"The movement in (Iraq) is the most dangerous mission for the regiment as a whole," said Capt. Todd Woodruff, company commander of Service Battery, First Squadron. "They always test out the new units coming in, so we anticipate at least one action."
While some 278th soldiers were pleased about the prospect of a plane ride into Iraq, others said they didn't want to miss the ground convoy's adrenaline rush.
"That would be like going to Disney World and not riding the roller coaster," said Capt. Chris Brock, 43, human resources officer for Support Squadron.
Soldiers on the convoy are scrambling to craft their own armor for the vehicles they are taking into a combat zone. Stress levels rose late last week when nuts and bolts ran low.
Soldiers dug used ballistic windshields — which include bullet-hole sized cracks — out of trash bins and installed them on some vehicles.
”If it was lucky for one guy, maybe it will be lucky for us," said Staff Sgt. Allen Lewis, of Castalian Springs, Tenn., as he carted one off for his Humvee.
Spc. Kevin Nunley, 44, of Nashville, one of several wearing green coveralls over their uniforms at the makeshift armor upgrade shop, said soldiers would continue to apply quarter-inch thick sheet metal until they run out.
"We are gong to make it happen," he said after adding the metal to five vehicles.
Some Vehicles Upgraded
The 278th will carry a wider array of vehicles into combat than the commonly-used Humvees, which now can be upgraded with armor kits. The standard Humvee canvas doors and roofs can be replaced with steel.
Sgt. John Hughes, 43, of Athens, Tenn., said similar armor kits are available for the passenger cabs of the military's support vehicles. He said a handful of these vehicles in each of the 278th's three squadrons are getting the enhancement, including his wrecker, which was sent to nearby Camp Arifjan to be outfitted with ballistic windows, armor plating and air conditioning.
"But I've also been told I will be doing most of the recovery missions in Iraq, since mine will be up-armored," he said. "With good news comes bad news, I guess."
The collection of five-ton trucks, five-ton wreckers and other vehicles — including fuel trucks used to haul equipment, soldiers and ammunition — now sports portions of scrap metal on most doors. Thin sections of rusted metal stretch halfway across each vehicle's side windows to offer some protection without blocking the driver's view of the side mirrors.
Capt. Woodruff said he hopes the convoy displays enough force to keep insurgents away. He said he managed to “bulk up” his firepower by scrounging 12 more .50-caliber machine guns for the trip north.
Soldiers are traveling into an Iraq where insurgents attack with homemade bombs placed along the roads.
"They (insurgents) are trying to attack weak convoys, not strong convoys," said Staff Sgt. Brian Culberson, 28, of Cleveland, Tenn.
He said soldiers scrounging for extra armor are not unique to this war. He recently saw a magazine article about units in Vietnam scavenging steel for their vehicles.
"They had the same problem with convoys getting hit with guerrilla warfare," Sgt. Culberson said. "The odds of us getting hit are pretty slim, but it is still an odd." Testing Weapons
To reduce the chances of an attack, 278th soldiers now are focusing on being able to move, shoot and communicate. Tires, oils, engines and radios are checked and rechecked while weapons are dismantled, cleaned and reassembled.
First Squadron's Service Battery recently spent two days test-firing weapons with live ammunition for the last time before the convoy. The soldiers passed herds of Bedouin camels on both sides of the road on the way to one of the 17 U.S.-operated firing ranges scattered in the Kuwaiti desert.
The officer in charge of the firing range warned the soldiers that camels often wander into the line of fire and must be chased away. If a soldier shoots one of the animals, it will cost the U.S. Army $30,000.
Soldiers spread out along the practice range took as few as three and as many as 18 shots to get their M-4 rifle sights adjusted for accuracy up to 300 meters.
After firing their personal weapons, Service Battery soldiers drove several miles under cloudy skies to another range and tested the sights on the heavy guns mounted on the roofs of their vehicles. The roar of the .50-caliber machine guns blasted the air as tiny streams of red fire streaked low across the desert and kicked up dust around targets 400 to 1,200 meters away.
Elsewhere, 278th M-1 Abrams tanks practiced hitting targets less than a meter in size from about two miles away.
Back at the tents, while officers hold planning meetings late into the night, soldiers spend their evenings getting mentally prepared for the long trek through Iraq. They play cards, watch movies, write letters, listen to music or just lie on their cots.
"There will be a lot of praying the night before," said Staff Sgt. David Harris, 47, of Cleveland, Tenn.
Rumsfeld wants armor problem resolved
Associated Press
NEW DELHI, India -- A day after being challenged by a soldier on the Army's failure to provide adequate armor for vehicles used in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said today he expects the Army to do its best to resolve the problem.
Thousands of miles away, President Bush echoed Rumsfeld's sentiments.
"The concerns expressed are being addressed and that is -- we expect our troops to have the best possible equipment," Bush said at the White House. "If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country I'd want to ask the secretary of defense the same question. And that is, 'Are we getting the best we can get us?' And they deserve the best.
"And I have told many families I've met with, we're doing everything we possibly can to protect your loved ones in a mission which is vital and important. And that mission is to spread freedom and peace," Bush said.
Rumsfeld, on a visit to the Indian capital, said it was good that ordinary soldiers are given a chance to express their concerns to the secretary of defense and senior military commanders.
"It's necessary for the Army to hear that, do something about it and see that everyone is treated properly," Rumsfeld said, referring not only to the complaint about insufficient armor but also another soldier's statement about not getting reimbursed for certain expenses in a timely way.
Those complaints, and others, were aired on Wednesday when Rumsfeld held a "town hall" style meeting with about 2,300 soldiers at Camp Buehring in northern Kuwait, a transit camp for troops heading into Iraq.
Spc. Thomas Wilson had asked Rumsfeld, "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles?" Shouts of approval and applause arose from other soldiers who had assembled in an aircraft hangar to see Rumsfeld.
Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.
"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson, 31, of Nashville, Tenn., concluded after asking again.
"You go to war with the Army you have," Rumsfeld replied, "not the Army you might want or wish to have."
Asked today about that exchange, the defense secretary said he believed the session in general was "very fine, warm (and) enjoyable." As for Wilson's statement, Rumsfeld said it could be constructive.
"I don't know what the facts are, but somebody is certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know," Rumsfeld said.
Rumsfeld gave no indication that the soldier would face any kind of disciplinary action for speaking up. Indeed, the defense secretary said he found it healthy for soldiers to feel free to express their views.
He also said military vehicles that go into Iraq without full armor are used only inside U.S. compounds, rather than used on street patrols where they are vulnerable to roadside bombs. And he said those vehicles without full armor are moved into Iraq on transport vehicles rather than being driven.
More broadly, Rumsfeld said people should understand that the military has done all that can reasonably be expected to adjust to changing circumstances in Iraq as the insurgents have refined their tactics.
"That is the way war and insurgencies and combat operate," he said. "You go in, you have an enemy with a brain that does things, and then you make adjustments." He added, "Does everything happen instantaneously as the brain in the enemy sees things and makes changes? No, it doesn't happen instantaneously." But, he said, the Army has adjusted "pretty rapidly" to the evolving tactics of the insurgents, including the need to have more armor on vehicles like the Humvee.
Rumsfeld spoke after meeting today with Indian Defense Minister Shri Pranab Mukherjee. At the Ministry of Defense, Rumsfeld read a brief statement to reporters on U.S.-Indian military cooperation.
"The defense relationship is a strong one and something we intend to see is further knitted together as we go forward in the months and years ahead," he said.
Later he was meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and then flying back to Washington.
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --John Stuart Mill
posted on December 9, 2004 02:45:17 PM new
Holy crap.. between Linda side stepping issues and then trying to divert the topic onto something else entirely and also pointing out, once again, that in her opinion a Canadian shouldn't have an opinion.. just the same old same old...because she didn't have a c & P to address the issue...
Then Bear chimes in with every c & P he could find ...but not one original thought or response of his own...boring....
Repugs are upset that Rumsfeld was confronted with questions that he had no answers for and he came off sounding like the uncaring oaf he is.. only interested in covering his ass and that of his government... shame shame shame..
"I don't know what the facts are, but somebody is certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know," Rumsfeld said.
Rumsfeld gave no indication that the soldier would face any kind of disciplinary action for speaking up. Indeed, the defense secretary said he found it healthy for soldiers to feel free to express their views....yeah...right....hold on to your privates, Private.
posted on December 9, 2004 03:08:02 PM new
maggie - please refrain from speaking for me...I can speak for myself, thank you very much.
I didn't say that in her opinion a Canadian shouldn't have an opinion at all....never had, never would. Just stated her responding, in the way she did, didn't surprise me at all.
Again speaking for others...rather than yourself....Repugs are upset that Rumsfeld was confronted with questions that he had no answers for and he came off sounding like the uncaring oaf he is.. only interested in covering his ass and that of his government
I'm not the least bit upset. They have a right to express their concerns, and he addressed them. End of issue. It's called communicating with one another. I know you probably don't recognize it without all sorts of name calling and false accusations...but it's just communication going on between the upper levels and the ones fighting on the ground. Just like in any organization.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on December 9, 2004 03:12:21 PM new
Wrong Maggiedrawers, just a rational C&P response to the rabid C&P's from our resident War Vet Helen and die hard Kerry lover Logansdad.
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --John Stuart Mill
The inbedded reporter was simply working with the troops helping to frame or compose the question, Bear. The need is legitimate and has been acknowledged by your president...thanks to the question asked by an airplane mechanic to Rumsfeld. Is that how you support the troops, Bear...by inferring that they are lying about the shortage of armored vehicles. Do you know what you can do with your sleazy cut and pastes?
"A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon,"
said Wilson, an airplane mechanic with the Tennessee Army
National Guard, according to a transcript of the meeting released
by the Pentagon. "Our vehicles are not armored. We're
digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass
that's already been shot up . . . picking the best out of this scrap
to put on our vehicles to take into combat.
We do not have proper . . . vehicles to carry with us north."
posted on December 9, 2004 03:22:25 PM new
Maggiedrawers... LOL..I like that one Bear!
maggie - please refrain from speaking for me...I can speak for myself, thank you very much.
you could have fooled us, Linda.. with all the C & P's you post here, I didn't think you could speak for yourself....or think for yourself.. for that matter!
posted on December 9, 2004 03:25:13 PM new
We're use to it Maggie. Living in Canada gives you less credibility to talk about the U.S., in some people's opinions here, even though Kiara and I have dual citizenship.
The man many believe is "an apologist for radical Islam".
