posted on December 9, 2004 06:12:46 PM new
linda says,
"""Sounds to me like the Denver people would like to do as the article says.....Put Christ back in Christmas.""""
NOPE , sounds like they want to shove their RELIGIOUS beliefs down others throats.
"""""Maybe they're part of the growing group that wants to start instilling more values and morals into their children...feeling that things have become so laxed changes are necessary."""""
Ya, to instill morals in children hold a parade for Jesus.... HILARIOUS! Why can't these parents instill morals in their home.
""""Maybe many will agree that the continuation of removing everything related to why this holiday has always been celebrated here in this way....is getting out-of-hand and has gone beyond ridiculous."""
DUH...read Kiara's post about the history of Christmas...
AND NOWHERE in the bible does it direct anyone to celebrate the birth of Jesus.....christians were to celebrate his DEATH and resurection NOT his birth.
posted on December 9, 2004 06:17:29 PM new
Gee nerotic, sounds like you spend the whole Christmas season on your knees praying....no gifts, no drinking, no football, no tree, no candy, cookies and NO buying EEEEK!!!!!!!!!
You have just won my "bible thumper of the day award". Congratulations!
Nero, what would ever stop this church, or any other church from having THEIR OWN parade? The answer to that question in NOTHING!!!! This church and others could group together and from their own parade committee and have a lavish bible thumping affair. It could be one minute or one hour long, they would have the complete control of it. Get the permits, and have a parade.
The Downtown Denver Partnership which apparently directs the parade, seems to think that the church group was not in line with the image they wanted to project. The church of course was only trying to make itself into a martyr.
The event was called the Parade of Lights. That in itself should tell you that it's not related to December 25th in any way. Many downtown business committees sponsor what is called the Santa Claus Parade.
Also nero, I don't "utter" merry chirstmas to anyone. I say "have a good holiday" instead. I don't know if the person is a jew, or is of the wicca religion. If someone said to you Happy Hanuka, you would very likely say to yourself, "I am not a jew".
linda says.
"To exclude any *because* of religion is discrimination. In some cases they don't discriminate against gays....but DO discriminate against people of faith."
The organizers of the parade have the right to freedom of speech. They also have the right of "freedom not to speak". When they choose not to include the church in their presentation, they are exercising that right.
Stop feeling singled out on the church issue.
desquirrel says,
"What does gay have to do with Thanksgiving? Why do we have to have a "gay" float in a Thanksgiving parade?? "
Again, why does any organization have to have a parade anyway? It is usually a committee of non profit that sponsors it. They choose what or who they want. Maybe the gays in this parade volunteered in the making of this parade. Or just maybe the promoters thought it would be a welcome addition to it. Last year, my son's high school band was in America's Thanksgiving Parade in Detroit. They were chosen by a parade committee based on state wide accreditation and numerous video tapes of past events. They didn't try to bully their way in.
Anyone could ask the same thing about clowns, fire trucks, convertibles, the shriners, politicians, carriages, or anything else in a Thanksgiving parade.
crow,
"Jeez....whatever you do don't go to church or into your own home to honor him....how will anyone know how "holy" you are ?????"
I wonder how they honored him before America had organized parades?
I wonder why this church couldn't have it's own parade. Perhaps they spent too much of their own money on printing yard signs, radio and TV ads, and newspaper ads on the gay marriage issue. What a sorry lot they are!
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on December 10, 2004 03:11:19 AM newthis Parade has taken place during Haunaka and Ramadan ..
yeah, go ahead and deny to yourself and on a public message board, that these are not religious-based HOLY Days either.
And what affronts you more? The fact that you're youre a wholesaler and not a retailer..or because either way you travel with a pathetically void consciousness of WHY you're even reaping the benefits off the "holiday season"?
Whats next on the adgenda? I guess we should ban the salvation army bell ringers from the streets,too? They're a Christian-based organization. (I bet the sounds of those bells ringing really wrecks havoc to your nicely coin-clogged throats and cash-filled santa ho-ho-I've hawked-it-all the way to the bank-abdomens.)
Go sell your wares,fenix, nobody honestly really cares about you except you.
But do stop shoving the premise down MY throat that "Christ has no business in Christmas" - because you couldn't get it any more aszbackwards than that.
--
[ edited by neroter12 on Dec 10, 2004 03:13 AM ]
posted on December 10, 2004 04:49:56 AM new
Christmas was even started to celebrate the birth of Christ and it has long ceased being the reason most people celebrate it.
Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.
In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.
Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.
The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.
In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.”
The controversy continues even today in some fundamentalist sects.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
posted on December 10, 2004 06:36:48 AM newThe answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas
No, Cheryl. Pagan customs were not the origins of Christmas. They were gravitated by and attracted into a deliberate and calculated interpolation of a new religion: Christianity. Not the origins of it.
posted on December 10, 2004 06:44:40 AM new
"""""""No, Cheryl. Pagan customs were not the origins of Christmas. They were gravitated by and attracted into a deliberate and calculated interpolation of a new religion: Christianity. Not the origins of it. """"
For pete's sake , nerotic, spit it out in English !
What a load of crap.....I've told you before ...using big words does NOT make you look smarter....it makes you look like you don't know English! You're writing gobbledeegook!
Now, watch the religious, christian response I get
posted on December 10, 2004 07:07:38 AM new
::yeah, go ahead and deny to yourself and on a public message board, that these are not religious-based HOLY Days either.::
When have I ever said that? Perhaps you should go back and read what I have posted again.
::And what affronts you more? The fact that you're youre a wholesaler and not a retailer..or because either way you travel with a pathetically void consciousness of WHY you're even reaping the benefits off the "holiday season"?::
Actually sweetie, January is traditionally my best sales month. I don't sell Holiday items, or even items that are usually given as gifts, but please feel free to shove your little moral judgements right up your happy holiday azz. When did I insult you? Don't travel down that road with me Nero - it will not be a pleasant journey for you.
::Whats next on the adgenda? I guess we should ban the salvation army bell ringers from the streets,too? They're a Christian-based organization.::
If you had even the slightest clue about what was going on, or possessed any type of short term reading retention you would know that does not bother me in the least. I don't have problems with Christan organizations and I don't actually have problems with Christians. I have a problem with people who believe that they have some divine right to shove their agenda down everyones throat and lack the ability to provide the basic reciropcal respect for others that they demand for themselves.
:: Go sell your wares,fenix, nobody honestly really cares about you except you.::
You must care quite a bit sweetheart - you are the one that keeps making personal attacks on me. I was taking about a parade but this is now the third mention/second post where you bring up my business.
::But do stop shoving the premise down MY throat that "Christ has no business in Christmas" - because you couldn't get it any more aszbackwards than that. ::
I would be happy to stop but I am unaware that I have begun to do that in the first place. All I said was that the Parade is a holiday seasonal parade.... I would challenge you to find even a single mention of Christ in any of my posts, much less a denial. You made that leap all by your lonesome.
In the future, if you would like to havean arguement with me, I would appreciate if you could actually limit yourself to points that i have actually brought up because this entire last post of yours seem to deal with issues that I have actually never brought up...
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Dec 10, 2004 07:10 AM ]
posted on December 10, 2004 08:40:39 AM new
It’s very multi-cultural here and as far as I know, everyone is welcome in the holiday parades no matter what tradition or religion they believe in. Most communities have dropped the word ‘Christmas’ and use variations of ‘Parade or Festival or Season of Lights’ to encompass all beliefs and make everyone feel welcome to celebrate the season.
It’s the retailers that sponsor the events and many offer free treats to their customers throughout the holiday season. Businesses usually have to hire extra help and let’s not forget shoplifting is at its highest this time of year also. Along with the cost of advertising, it’s a large expense each year to do this but it generates a festive atmosphere so of course they hope to gain some extra sales in return.
but please feel free to shove your little moral judgements right up your happy holiday azz.
posted on December 10, 2004 09:51:49 AM new
"I have a problem with people who believe that they have some divine right to shove their agenda down everyones throat and lack the ability to provide the basic reciprocal respect for others that they demand for themselves."
I agree with that 100 percent. Especially when the religious right in many cases outnumber the groups they have no regard for. Talk about the bullies of the world.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on December 10, 2004 12:54:43 PM new
fenix, go back and read the thread. Below is how the generalized term "retailers" came into it. You're are taking this thread way too personally! As you bought up the retailers, I referred to you with a retailers mindset. Do you want to tell me that was a wrong assumption? I never attacked you or your business. YOU brought it into the discussion in the first place and then made it personal by stating: I AM NOT A RETAILER; I AM a wholesaler.
---------------------------------------------
fenix: There are are millions of families and even more retailers...
nero: Its bad enough that retailers have made every single.....
nero: Sorry, you cant change that fact to suit your secular retailers mind-set..
fenix:You shove that remark on two levels. 1) Just a tad more conscending than called for. 2) I'm a wholesaler, not a retailer.
---------------------------------------------
Do us all a favor and get your emotions and logic into check here. You dont want something shoved down your throat, but you sure are quick to state how easily you can and will to do the shoving. And as relates to the thread: I stated before they (the christians) did not want to shove anything down anybodys throat. They wanted to be part of the ceremony just as much as the gay holy indians. But you dont like that reason and PREFER to see it as some act of moral imposition. This might be a revelation to you fenix, but a Christian display is like any other; take it or leave it. Just because you see Santa claus all over the place - do you intend to protest there is no santa claus and you dont want it shoved down your throat that he ever existed?
As far as your other comment goes: I have no doubt as to how ugly you really are; or the extent of the abject poverty of your soul just waiting to unleash what you think should threaten fear in me. Thats a joke, your fenixness. But take a number and get in line if you so want a piece of me. I guarantee your ugly will only be returned as a torrent of grief to you and you'll crawl like kiara and crowfart after my every word posted.
I think I understand, too, you have nobody to address as sweetie or sweetheart so you erroneously direct it toward me? May I make a suggestion to you? If you save it for valentines, should you ever have a valentine or anyone that wants a piece of that uglyness you so boastfully hold so dear to - you might just actually get to say it without malice for once in your life.
posted on December 10, 2004 01:31:11 PM new
Neroter, why don't YOU do us all a favour and go fly a kite. You're worse than Twelve with your hate-spewing and Christian garbage. The people you hate so much are the best posters here, so obviously this place isn't for you. Maybe Pat Robertson has a message board where you can go and tell everyone the score. Here, your crap isn't needed.
posted on December 10, 2004 02:42:39 PM new
kraft, I dont hate anyone. But you have contempt for me because I dont think like you do. So I am worse than tweleve? Did I tell anybody to shove it or they're a pos or a c? No, I have not. I have only stated what I think, and how I feel about certain issues. - No different than you do.
posted on December 10, 2004 02:45:09 PM new
::fenix, go back and read the thread. Below is how the generalized term "retailers" came into it. You're are taking this thread way too personally!::
Really? You have three times brought me into the conversation. Not I dearest. YOU decided what my mindset was then decided to label it is negative and then went on to make still another personal attack saying that I am the only one that cares about me.
::As you bought up the retailers, I referred to you with a retailers mindset. Do you want to tell me that was a wrong assumption?::
Yes it was. I was referrring to the fact that "Christmas" has transended its original meaning in the public eye in the past century and become more of a Hallmark than a religious holiday.
:o us all a favor and get your emotions and logic into check here.::
OK - that damn near as funny as Helen telling me stay on topic.
::Just because you see Santa clause all over the place - do you intend to protest there is no santa claus and you dont want it shoved down your throat that he ever existed? ::
You need to get a clue here Nero because once again you have launched into a topic that I never started. No one is protesting god. No one is protesting against Jesus. All that is being said is that there is a 30 year tradition with this parade of leaving religion out of it. There are too many religions and quite frankly religion is to devisive an issue and the Parade of Lights is supposed to be a community uniting event.
:: I have no doubt as to how ugly you really are or the extent of the abject poverty of your soul just waiting to unleash what you think should threaten fear in me. Thats a joke, your fenixness. But take a number and get in line if you so want a piece of me. I guarantee your ugly will only be returned as a torrent of grief to you and you'll crawl like kiara and crowfart after my every word posted. ::
I think you fail to understand something Nero. I don't fear you. I feel bad for you. You are kind of the boards pet nutcase. You hold it together for days at a time and then you launch out into far left field and there is no bringing you back for days. If Kiara crawls, it's only because she can no longer stand after laughing so hard at some of things you come up with.
::I think I understand, too, you have nobody to address as sweetie or sweetheart so you erroneously direct it toward me?::
It's the southern girl in my Nero. Sweetie, Honey, Sweetheart... if you have not figured them out yet, they are the southern version of "You silly child" "You stupid fool" , "You brainless twit" etc. Ask Helen, I can just see her nodding and grinning as I type this .
::If you save it for valentines, should you ever have a valentine or anyone that wants a piece of that uglyness you so boastfully hold so dear to - you might just actually get to say it without malice for once in your life.::
You underestimate me as usual. I have much better words that I reserve for the men in my life. They are deserving of much better than such simple little platitudes.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on December 10, 2004 06:23:59 PM new
In my opinion.. the most famous American artist of the 20th century..( born in Germany in the 30's) Grew up in America..
How old were you in the 60's Classy? Or were you even born yet?
posted on December 10, 2004 07:02:17 PM new
YES! Peter Max! GROOVY!
And the unknowing ask "who?"
Look him up!
Maggie, I think nerotic's rants are entertaining,too! Especially with the mental image they conjure. But to actually tell someone else to control their emotions is wild coming from her!
And I have never "crawled" after her(only in her frequent hallucinations).
[ edited by crowfarm on Dec 10, 2004 07:26 PM ]
posted on December 11, 2004 10:08:07 AM new
Peter Max...........is there anyone yet in America, or the world (for that matter), who does not know of Peter Max? In a few words Peter Max is......An American Icon.......The Artist Of America.......An Artist Of Generations!
Peter Max's work spans decades from the 1960's to modern times, he is undoubtedly the most know and sought after living American artist in the world today. Peter Max has painted for people such as Ronald Regan, Jimmy Carter, Mick Jagger, Elvis, Dale Earnhardt, Woodstock 600ft stage canvas, Continental Airlines Boeing 777 - $150 Million Dollar Canvas, Kentucky Derby, Steve Tyler, Time Magazine, TV Guide, People Magazine, NY Times Magazine, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, Muhammad Ali, and the list goes on and on and on and on..............
Mr. Peter Max and his art represent people from multiple generations and backgrounds who are striving for a different world order, one of peace, love, and harmony with each other and nature. Peter Max is constantly involved in charities of all kinds from animal rights to the betterment of America. I have attached some of the pieces we have by him. Please let me know if you have any interest. His original works range from $6,000 to $75,000.
.............................................
Replay....Classy.. if you were alive in the 60's you would know who Peter Max is...do a google search.. you'll see his art and recognize it, I'm sure.. he did the cover for the Beatles "Yellow Submarine" too, I believe.
Oh, that psychedlic 60's stuff. I'm not the least bit sorry I missed that decade
Yes, I do recognize much of it, but it's strange that the artist's name has not withstood the test of time. I was born in the [very late] 60's, and I swear I've never heard of him. Obviously, that style of artwork is familar.
He must have had a poor publicist or something to still be so personally obscure.
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Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
o us all a favor and get your emotions and logic into check here.::
.
