posted on January 9, 2005 07:37:06 AM new
Would the Catholic Church deny these kids an education if their mother had an abortion in the past? Would the Church deny these kids an education if their parents are divorced. These parents want their kids to have moral up-bringing and have the money to pay for it, but yet they are still denied.....
LOS ANGELES -- When two boys were enrolled at a Roman Catholic school in Southern California at the start of the school year, word quickly spread that they were the sons of a gay couple.
Parents of other children at St. John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa demanded the boys be removed from the 550-student elementary and middle school. Eighteen parents wrote a letter complaining about the presence of the boys and arguing their admission violated Roman Catholic doctrine on homosexuality.
The case, along with a similar one at another Roman Catholic school, have raised questions about the church's policies regarding the education of children of same-sex couples.
In the California case, the parish's pastor agreed to keep the two adopted sons of the gay couple in school. But in the second incident in Eugene, Ore., school officials refused to admit the adopted daughter of two lesbians. The mothers have sued the parish and school officials.
Experts and advocates for gays and lesbians believe that such incidents are even more widespread and that there will be a growing number of such cases as the number of same-sex couples increases.
"I would think so," Rev. Jim Schexnayder, the resource director of the National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries, said about the increase.
594,000 same-sex couples
According to the 2000 census, an estimated 594,000 same-sex households could be found in the country-- about 301,000 were male couples and about 293,000 females.
Schexnayder said he was aware of many such confrontations in Roman Catholic churches across the country, but said he was not at liberty to discuss specifics.
He said in most cases the disputes were resolved quietly and favorably for the children, who were allowed to attend classes.
"The gay or lesbian couples have to be sensitive to the feelings of other parents," he added.
The views of other parents were at the core of the dispute at St. John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa. The two boys involved have not been named publicly and neither have their parents, who have declined interview requests.
But the objecting parents said they felt their children could not receive full-fledged instruction on faith with the two boys in the school.
They said they could not see how a teacher could fully explain the church's policies on homosexuals without causing the two boys anxiety over their fathers' lifestyle.
But the pastor, Rev. Martin Benzoni, said the right of the children to an education was paramount and allowed the boys to stay.
"It has to do with the rights of the children regardless of the choices their families made," said Schexnayder.
He said the sincerity of the families' faith should determine the admissions policy, which differs from parish to parish. The minister noted some Roman Catholic schools admit non-Catholics and even non-Christians, while others admit only Catholics.
In the second case, Lee Inkmann and Trish Wilson tried to enroll their adopted daughter in kindergarten at the O'Hara Catholic School in Eugene.
At the start of August 2003, Inkmann went to the school to seek information that could help her decide if she wanted to enroll her daughter, according to a complaint filed in circuit court in Lane County, Ore.
When the tour was over Inkmann told Principal Dianne Bert that the child's other parent was also a woman.
Concerns over lifestyle
"Defendant Bert became upset and said the school had never enrolled an `out' gay family before," the complaint states.
The parents reportedly were informed that the girl would not be admitted because her having two mothers would be too confusing for other pupils.
The complaint states that plaintiffs were also told that the same-sex couple lifestyle was contrary to Vatican teaching and that the school needed to adhere to papal edicts.
The two women, who are seeking compensation of up to $550,000, declined to be interviewed.
Martha Walters, their attorney, said that under local ordinances the school, although private, is a place of public accommodation.
"It is like a restaurant," she said. "It is a private business, but the public has access."
Bud Bunce, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Portland, Ore., said, he could not comment on the lawsuit.
Gay and lesbian advocates said they expect church school access to be a growing cause of concern among same-sex couples with children.
"All parents, gay or straight, want a quality education for their children," said David Tseng, an attorney in Washington who had worked with Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, a national advocacy group.
"We are at the cutting edge of a civil rights movement," he said. "There are people out there testing the waters."
While there have been confrontations, many stories of harmonious relations exist among homosexual couples and the Roman Catholic Church.
Five years ago, Diana Buchbinder and her female partner sent their son and daughter to a Roman Catholic high school in San Francisco.
"They never flinched throughout the whole process," she said of Sacred Heart Cathedral Preparatory. "In fact they seemed to be more concerned about our being Jewish.
"The issue of having lesbian parents never really came up," she said of the experience her two children had at the school.
Since the city lacked a Jewish high school at the time, Buchbinder said she chose a Roman Catholic school rather than a public or a non-sectarian private school.
"I felt [it was important] having a school with a moral center," she said.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 9, 2005 08:11:22 AM new
Very sad, logan, that some "christians" seem unable to act like christians...all talk and no substance. But, is this the Catholic Church's first act of hate, corruption, bigotry and stupidity ????....not hardly! It's history is full of it so the story isn't too surprising.
""Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence."""
posted on January 9, 2005 08:15:43 AM newThe two women, who are seeking compensation of up to $550,000, declined to be interviewed.
Ok, they didn't let their daughter into a private Catholic school. (I think the key here is its a private school, not a public school)
Why is she sueing? What will $550,000 do for her because this school denied her daugher enrollement?? (and what I read here is that only one of the 'mothers' went to check out the school, not the other parent and the daughter)
posted on January 9, 2005 08:26:21 AM new
""Martha Walters, their attorney, said that under local ordinances the school, although private, is a place of public accommodation.
"It is like a restaurant," she said. "It is a private business, but the public has access."
posted on January 9, 2005 09:02:02 AM new
Well, as the Republicans have shown, there is no seperation of church and state in this country.
If any church had a "whites only" section the state had BETTER step in.
Are ALL parents vetted? Can children of murderers, CEOs, bank robbers, divorced couples, spouse beaters, KKK, women who use birth control, CHILD MOLESTERS(Ya know, like PRIESTS), and others, enroll their children ????
posted on January 9, 2005 09:12:56 AM new
Of course if a school had 'whites only' it would be something for the gov't to act on
It was my understanding that the seperation of Church and State was that all religions and faiths were protected from gov't interference, at least thats how it started out to be?
posted on January 9, 2005 09:34:51 AM new
All Catholic Schools are private.
If you look at the article some Catholic schools have allowed Jewish kids to attend.
The fact is if the parents what their kids to have a Catholic education with Catholic values and can afford to pay for it, what difference does it make?
Yes the school would teach the daughter Catholic values, but that child would also get both sides of the issues. One taught by the school that homosexuality is wrong (in the churches eyes), but at home they can see that there is nothing wrong with having two mothers. All this teaches the kids involved is that it is OK to discriminate.
What would be next for the Catholic church, discriminating on grounds of divorce or abortion?
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 9, 2005 09:46:13 AM new
NTS says,"It was my understanding that the seperation of Church and State was that all religions and faiths were protected from gov't interference, at least thats how it started out to be?""
Yes, it should be but before the last "election" the Republicans contacted churches, asked for their membership lists, told them to tell their parishioners how to vote, gave them pamphlets to hand out at services with "correct" ways to vote.
While that was not technically "government" interference...it was!
IF the church doesn't want government interference then they shouldn't send out orders that ban certain members of a certain POLITICAL party from receiving their sacraments. Especially when they are willing to hide and protect criminals on a regular basis.
posted on January 9, 2005 10:38:19 AM new
Logan - why are you so upset with the church on this one. The Costa Mesa church let the kids in and told the offended parents that the boys had a right to an education and would not remove them. Shouldn't you be railing against the parents that want them removed?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 9, 2005 10:43:33 AM new
crowfarm, to the best that I can remember, it wasn't the 'Republicans' that 'contacted churches with phamplets' it was the church members themselves, though those members were of course most likely Republicans. That doesn't fall under seperation of church and state, unless they were gov't officials doing this.
I honestly don't know what your saying about banning certain political party members from receiving sacraments. If I understand this, your talking about Kerry?
But while campaigning, he had a lot of 'photo ops' coming out of Church.
If either the DNC or the RNC, meaning the specific campaign people were doing this at churches, than yes, it is wrong.
About the priest thing, I've said it here before, but again, yes, Catholic priests have molested children. They should be punished as any child molester should be. And I do not believe that just being a priest makes you vulnerable to become a child molester. The priests that did these horrid things were child molesters from the start, and not because they have chosen the sacrement of Priesthood, and becoming celibate.
posted on January 9, 2005 10:58:40 AM new
Another thing, when I went to Catholic school, there wasn't any children in my school that was not a Catholic. We had to go to Mass before school everyday. They had a 'religion' class. Children whose parents couldn't afford the tution for the school, went to CCD in the evening, for their Catholic 'teachings'. This was in the 60's and things I'm sure have changed
My sister has one child, who she has sent to Catholic school from kindergarten. She and her husband have to volunteer a certain amount of hours to the school, ON TOP of paying the tuition. They allow non Catholic children in the school, they pay more in tuition, IF they do not belong to the particular Parish. And they do NOT have to attend 'Religion' class.
posted on January 9, 2005 11:20:20 AM new
::I honestly don't know what your saying about banning certain political party members from receiving sacraments. If I understand this, your talking about Kerry? But while campaigning, he had a lot of 'photo ops' coming out of Church.::
Back in April of last year one of the top Vatican Bishops stated that the sacraments should be denied to political officials that did not uphold the teachings of the church (aka - any the were pro choice). There were posters on this board that stated that Kerry should not only be denied sacraments but also excommunicated from the church.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 9, 2005 11:31:41 AM new
fenix, yep I remember the postings. And I think I remember a Bishop stating that, was he from the Vatican? I thought he was from in the U.S., but I also remember that it was 'in his opinion'. In any case, Kerry was not denied communion, nor was he excommunicated. But then, there are a lot of devout Catholics that would think that way.
posted on January 9, 2005 11:33:29 AM new
Wait, your right it was a Vatican Bishop. But I think he also said it was up to the U.S. top bishops or whoever to do anything, and none did.
posted on January 9, 2005 12:08:13 PM new
of course
gotta add one more thing, arent't you lucky! before we leave today. I wrote up there about the seperation of Church and State, and how it was INTENDED to protect the 'Church' from the Government.
Then I 'googled' it (is there any other way? LOL) and came up with this site, that does make it more clearer, at least I believe it does
... Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:
I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.
The first 'use' of Seperation was that NO one religion would be a State Religion, the thing that drove people from Britian, because the Church of England basically ruled England at the time, AND that the government would not 'interfere' with the different Churches and Religious practices.
posted on January 9, 2005 03:41:11 PM new
Fenix, I am upset with the Church for not having a backbone in this issue. If the child met the requirements to be accepted to the school, then the child should be admitted. If the school has a written requirement that the potential student must come from a family that consists of one male and one female parent then I do not have a problem with the Church denying admission. However I hardly believe this is the case. After all the article did say that some parishes have allowed students have gay parents to be enrolled. I have a strong feeling most Catholic dioceses around the country are struggling for money, why they are turning away kids would be beyond me.
Furthermore, it is Catholic teaching that said "judge lest not be judged." It is this teaching, that the Church should be telling the other parents who objected to the child having lesbian parents.
Lastly, it is child that is receiving the education not the lesbian parents, so what difference does it make whether or not the child attends the school or not. The Church is not teaching the parents about the Church's position on homosexuality.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 9, 2005 06:24:29 PM new
Logansdad
Furthermore, it is Catholic teaching that said "judge lest not be judged." It is this teaching, that the Church should be telling the other parents who objected to the child having lesbian parents.
Not exclusively Catholic teaching, its the Bibles teaching, so who ever said that Catholic dogma has to go along with the Bible (my mother is probably rolling in her grave about now) but when I went through all those years of Catholic school, they never 'pushed' reading the Bible alone, in fact they almost insisted that a nun or Priest 'interpet' it for you.
Lastly, it is child that is receiving the education not the lesbian parents, so what difference does it make whether or not the child attends the school or not. The Church is not teaching the parents about the Church's position on homosexuality.
Ok, say your a gay parent, and you decide (and they allow, since this is what this thread is about) to have your child attend. Now, the Church may not be teaching YOU their position on homosexuality, but they will teach your child. Is that what you want? If the curriculim is such, your child will be taught a whole lot of things, that you don't believe, so the whole descion on having your child attend is moot now. Why would you want your child learning that your lifestyle is wrong? (the point is the Churches stance on gay lifestyles, not mine)
posted on January 9, 2005 06:56:21 PM new
There are many unanswered questions in that article. I clicked the link but since I have to register to read it forget it!!!!
1. What is the religion of the two females and do they practice that religion?
2. Why a Catholic School as a Lutheran, Montisory school or a Charter School?
3. If they require besides money, a parent help with teaching or some other function will they be able to do it?
About sueing, as I stated in the Amber Frey thread that sueing is a way of life in the US and if, not in Amber's case, I can't get my way I will sue.
posted on January 9, 2005 07:39:34 PM new
I think a private school should be able to deny admission to any student, for any reason. Period.
If that school receives a penny of public funding or subsidy, they should be subject to the laws that govern such things, including discrimination.
This of course begs the question of Bush's encouragement of funding for faith based stuff...
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on January 9, 2005 11:16:16 PM new
I support the private schools right to accept whomever they wish to...or not. Hope that trend continues and the 'state' stays out of it.
Why in the world a parent would want his child put in a situation where the belief systems are different from theirs is beyond me. Just pushing the system once again. And then would probably end up in a lawsuit when...
They said they could not see how a teacher could fully explain the church's policies on homosexuals without causing the two boys anxiety over their fathers' lifestyle.
And that would be the next threat of a lawsuit...their children were anxious about hearing what their parents were doing is against the Catholic preachings and considered immoral.
Take the child somewhere else where this isn't an issue for them. There are many private schools...funny how they chose a Catholic one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
edited to add:
According to the 2000 census, an estimated 594,000 same-sex households could be found in the country-- about 301,000 were male couples and about 293,000 females
This does not necessarily mean that is the number of gay and lesbian couples in the US living together. Many single parents live with other single parents to share expenses.
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 9, 2005 11:39 PM ]
posted on January 10, 2005 09:34:33 AM new
NTS: Ok, say your a gay parent, and you decide (and they allow, since this is what this thread is about) to have your child attend. Now, the Church may not be teaching YOU their position on homosexuality, but they will teach your child. Is that what you want? If the curriculim is such, your child will be taught a whole lot of things, that you don't believe, so the whole descion on having your child attend is moot now. Why would you want your child learning that your lifestyle is wrong? (the point is the Churches stance on gay lifestyles, not mine)
Near, if I want my child to receive a Catholic education, I would be aware of what the Church's position on homosexuality would be. It would be because of this, my child would learn about both sides of the issue (what the Chruch teaches and what they would see at home). Hopefully after see both sides of the issue they would be able to make an informed decision about homosexuality when they are older.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 10, 2005 09:41:28 AM new
Why in the world a parent would want his child put in a situation where the belief systems are different from theirs is beyond me. Just pushing the system once again.
Did you ever stop any think the parents may be Catholic and want the same type of education they had when there were children. Maybe they feel a Catholic education is the best one available to their children. If you read the article it did say Catholic schools allowed children of Jeiwsh people to be admitted.
Again you are assuming the parents are pushing a homosexual lifestyle onto their child. So what if parents views are different from the Church's. Would you send your child to Catholic school if you felt abortion, divorce or war was OK? This would be against the Catholic Church's teaching.
Once again this article shows why gay people have to live in the "cloest". If one of the parents went to register their child as single parent none of this would be an issue. However because the couple decided to be open about their situation they have to face this grief.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
"Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
[ edited by logansdad on Jan 10, 2005 09:46 AM ]
posted on January 10, 2005 03:11:27 PM new
This is my first post on the subject, so I'm going to respond to two points.
I cannot imagine why a homosexual parent would ever want to put their children in that postition. The parents say homosexuality is good, while everyone at school says it is an evil sin. Who to believe?
If I think back to my own school days, most of the time, I took the side of the teachers, and my parents were the idiots. I think this is a pretty typical reaction for ost kids, at least until they hit college age, and some even after that.
If you were a gay parent, would you really want your children turned against you?
and crowfarm said "If any church had a "whites only" section the state had BETTER step in." Just hypothetically, if a church DID do this, is there any legal recourse for the government to do anything about it? Wouldn't seperation of church & state protect the church in this case? Interesting point.
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Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
posted on January 10, 2005 04:52:57 PM new
[b]and crowfarm said "If any church had a "whites only" section the state had BETTER step in." Just hypothetically, if a church DID do this, is there any legal recourse for the government to do anything about it? Wouldn't seperation of church & state protect the church in this case? Interesting point. [/i]
Actually, there are churches like this. They may not come out and say "whites only"[/i] but any black families would be insane to attend. Specifically, I mean churches in the area my aunt & uncles retired to--northern Idaho. VERY big white supremist population up there, and at least one pastor was written about in the local newspaper as one who preached anti-black sermons every Sunday. And I wouldn't be surprised to find there are other churches across the country that are similar.
____________________
"Bad temper is its own scourge. Few things are more bitter than to feel bitter. A man's venom poisons himself more than his victim." --Charles Buxton
posted on January 11, 2005 10:54:42 AM new
Replay: cannot imagine why a homosexual parent would ever want to put their children in that postition. The parents say homosexuality is good, while everyone at school says it is an evil sin. Who to believe?
Would you have a different view if the school in question was a high school instead of a grade school?
Most "kids" pick the high school they want to attend. At that age a high school "kid" should have formed their own views regarding homosexuality.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 11, 2005 11:10:54 AM new
"Most "kids" pick the high school they want to attend."
??? I know I certainly had no choice in the matter. I went to public schools for financial reasons, like most other people. HOWEVER, if my parents had been able to pay for a private school, they would have been calling the shots.
"At that age a high school "kid" should have formed their own views regarding homosexuality"
True. But who influences those views more, parents or peers & teachers? Newsflash: For most teens, it ain't the parents.
--------------------------------------
Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
posted on January 12, 2005 08:42:25 AM new
When I was going into high school I had the option of attending one of three high schools.
True. But who influences those views more, parents or peers & teachers? Newsflash: For most teens, it ain't the parents.
In my opinion it would be their friends, parents and then the teachers.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 12, 2005 04:46:56 PM new
Logansdad, how did you end up with a choice of high schools?
You seem to think that's normal. I recall when I was in high school (the only high school in town) one girl talked her parents out of sending her away to a private boarding school. That's the closest I can come in my experience to a kid picking their own high school.
it was a Vatican Bishop. But I think he also said it was up to the U.S. top bishops or whoever to do anything, and none did. 
