posted on January 24, 2005 04:15:27 PM newThe teachers unions control the schools and everything that goes on there
Your statement is simplistic hogwash Linda. It simply isn't true. I have been a teacher over 25 years, and have never been a member. In my district, only about 30% of the total teaching staff are members of any teaching association or union, as you like to call them. There are certain districts, mostly in the north east, where membership is 80% of those employed or above, but in the rest of the country, it just ain't so.
According to 2003 figures published by the US Dept. of Labor (look it up), 42.3% of those employed in the field of "education, training and library" were union members. Less than half.
No union has ever had a say in what I do, or what my district does. That fact alone negates your ridiculous assertion, but according to the DOL, so does the other 57.7% of my colleagues who are not controlled by unions. How nice it would be for all of us if fixing the schools could be so easy.
By the way, that article you copied from the WSJ is an OP-ED piece, not news.
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on January 24, 2005 05:08:06 PM new
Yes, profe....one of many opinions from those in the field of education who are willing to admit that teachers unions protects teachers....and aren't necessarily in our children's best interest.
The writer of the WSJ op-ed is:
Mr. Moe, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, a member of the Koret Task Force on K-12 Education, and a professor of political science at Stanford, is the winner of this year's Thomas B. Fordham Prize for distinguished scholarship in education.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 24, 2005 05:25:42 PM new
Linda, good for you for finding an article that supports your viewpoint.
But seriously now, have you read any of the other article written by Jan Flury? Based on the articles I have read she it practically against how the schools are teaching our kids today. It would appear as if she is anti-teacher and anti-teacher union. If you ask me, she is an extremist with her views.
Here is just one thing she had to say:
Firm discipline and good teaching are the key to happy, high-achieving students. And high achieving, happy students should be the top priority of the public school system. Why does the "progressive" education establishment put other, mostly subjective, non-educational priorities ahead of giving the children a functionally useful education? Is this not a systematic withholding of services that teachers are hired to provide? Who is responsible? Is it the teachers, the teachers' unions, the pedagogical administrators that control school boards and the governmental education departments, or is it the university professors who control how teachers are taught to teach? Perhaps it's a conspiracy, by all or some of the above, to produce a malleable dependent generation that will be at the beck-and-call of the academic elitists who see themselves as the undisputed leaders of our future society.
Here is another:
Over the last several decades, the public education system has developed into an unmanageable, burgeoning, bureaucratic blob that is producing far from the intended results.
If you want more:
One thing is certain Public education is not about giving the children the best education possible--it's all about politics and winning the blame game.
First it was sensitive subjects, then sex education, AIDS awareness, and finally sexual orientation. All, subjects taught against the wishes of most parents and best left for discussion in the home, not the schools.
And where is her proof to back this up? This is all part of sexual education. Please tell me how many parents actually sit down with their children and discuss sex with them.
"We just want to make sure that in our schools we have the best resources for all of our children that address today's society
Whether you like it or not Linda, homosexuality is part of today's society and you can not wave your magic wand and make it disappear. You have gay parents with children that send their kids to schools for a proper education. You have gay couples adopting children and sending them to school. You have gays that are have jobs as teachers. Lastly you have gay students, are teachers just suppose to teach to the straight students and ignore those that are gay?
Schools have current event classes. Where better to discuss these "current events" than in school?
In that case, shouldn't schools also respect drug addiction and protect drug pushers? And since when is respect bestowed on the basis of sexual activity-heterosexual or otherwise?
Another activist line of BS. Last time I checked drugs were illegal and being gay was not, so what is the point other than to advance your fear of what might happen next. Next you will say the churches will be saying it is OK for priests to molest children.
And when are people taught to respect one group of people over the other. Are your children taught to respect your parents but not little Johnny's parents? Are you children taught to respect your parents but not your aunt and uncle?
Our teachers are no longer working in the best interests of our children but, rather, advancing the sordid agenda of a very small, powerful group devoted to a perverted lifestyle.
I wonder if Jan told this to her child's teacher at one of the parent teach conferences, that is if she even has any kids.
Linda nice try, but Jan is just as much an activist promoting the conservative agenda as you are. When you have a less biased article I will give your post some better credibility.
Oh one last thing, when did you start caring about what Canadians think. The writer of the article is from Canada. Oh yes, that is right, when the person has views similar to your own you don't care about that. But when Canadians want to give their views about the elections here in the states suddenly you don't care about their views and opinions.
Linda, the following is from the Arkansas Education Improvement Program
STUDENT LEARNING EXPECTATIONS: WRITING
GRADES K-4
1.1.10 Appreciate and express cultural diversity in writing.
1.1.11 Respect the points of view and writing of others.
GRADES 5-8
1.1.16 Write in class for uninterrupted periods of time about experiences, thoughts, feelings and attitudes of self and others.
STUDENT LEARNING EXPECTATIONS
GRADES 9-12
1.1.25 Show acceptance of and sensitivity to cultural diversity through peer response
Please tell me how you teach the above without teaching tolerance? Do you teach tolerance by saying you must treat fat people, blind people, handicapped people with respect, but say you can mock and hit and even kill homosexuals?
The following is taken from the NEA website:
A number of studies confirm that g/l/b/t students become aware of their sexual orientation or gender identification -- and identify themselves as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered -- early in their adolescence.3 Although precise figures are not available, there can be no question that the number of g/l/b/t students is significant. The most reliable research on this issue shows that between five and six percent of American students are gay, lesbian, or bisexual.4 Using the 1990 census -- which placed the number of children in the U.S. between the ages of five and seventeen at approximately 45 million -- this means that the number of school-age children who fit into one of these categories can be estimated conservatively as somewhere between 2.25 and 2.7 million.5 We have found no reliable data on the number of transgendered students in American schools, but that number -- while surely smaller -- adds to an already significant population.6
It is widely documented that well before these students become aware of their sexual orientation or gender identification in their middle school or high school years, most already have been exposed to -- and have internalized -- hostile, discriminatory, attitudes toward g/l/b/t persons that are pervasive in society.7 As a consequence, "[i]n adolescence, young homosexually oriented persons are faced with a growing awareness that they may be among the most despised"8 -- an awareness that becomes all the more acute as they encounter acts of harassment and abuse.
At the convention the NEA even called for "programs in the public schools for children from birth through age eight."
Nice editing to express her view. Jan does not say what programs. Nor does she give any source where she obtained this information.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 24, 2005 05:28:31 PM new
The Hoover Institute is a conservative think tank funded by corporate interests, the Koret Task Force was begun under the Hoover Institute's auspices. What do you suppose would be his opinion?? Note also that he's a professor of Poli-sci, not education.
His opinion is nearly as invalid as your own.
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on January 24, 2005 05:45:06 PM new
"i.e. My sister was a teacher for 40 years. Retired at 55 with some unbelievable benefits, which when I retired from the medical field at age 45 with nothing. She made more retired than she did while teaching and her teachers salary was in the upper thousands for many years. The business world does not have benefits like the teachers do. The teachers are now crying because they might have to pay for some of their medical insurance, which I had to pay half of mine"
Libra, let me ask you a question-how many years of college do you have and what kind of degree do you have?
posted on January 24, 2005 05:59:12 PM new
My x-ray program was 2 years. 2 Continuous years with only a 2 week vacation.
I took the National Registry and became registered in 1956. During my working years I was a staff technologist, Special Procedure Technologist, CT Technologist, Quality Control Technologist and Mammographer. I am also Certified in Mammography. I was also a assistant chief technologist for about 2 years. To keep my registry I had to complete 12 hours of continuing education for my x-ray license and 5 hours continuing education for my mammogram license. This was every year and monitored by the State of Illinois and the American Registry of Radiological Technologists.
Of my 45 years approximately 35 of them I was on call.
posted on January 24, 2005 06:25:58 PM new
Religious conservatives who do not wish to see the gay agenda promoted/pushed in our schools....especially in the younger grades where they don't even have a clue as to sexuality...is what they and I are totally against.
This is no different that the extremist views of what your own gay representative would like to see happen.
Do you renounce his essay logansdad? Or do you support it as being the way you hope these social issues go?
Asking for tolerance is one thing....being tolerant is another...but promoting, expecting acceptance and TEACHING it's normal are not what the public schools were meant for. But they sure are what the liberals have turned them into. That is what the religious conservatives hope to circumvent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 04:06:51 AM new
"i.e. My sister was a teacher for 40 years. Retired at 55 with some unbelievable benefits, which when I retired from the medical field at age 45"
Libra-your statement makes no sense-how can your sister be a teacher for 40 years and retire at 55-she was teaching since she was 15??
Those hours of instruction you took,how many of those did you actually have to pay for.
So I take it from your answer to my question is that you have no college or degree.
Are you getting my point?
[ edited by classicrock000 on Jan 25, 2005 04:20 AM ]
posted on January 25, 2005 06:46:00 AM newAsking for tolerance is one thing....being tolerant is another...
The next time your son or or grandchild is being beat up by a bully, I hope the bully says that to your son or granchild while he is asking for the bully to stop.
but promoting, expecting acceptance and TEACHING it's normal are not what the public schools were meant for. But they sure are what the liberals have turned them into. That is what the religious conservatives hope to circumvent.
Look at the highlighted words and tell me what is wrong. Public schools do not teach religion but yet you want your religious views taught anyway. If you have school age children and do not like what is being tauight in public schools, then you have the option of sending them to private school where religion is taught or you can home school them and teach them your values.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 25, 2005 10:35:57 AM new
logansdad - No... I don't agree with your premise that if parents don't like some of the garbage that's being taught in our school system, they need to remove their children. Many have and continue to remove their children...those who can afford to do so most likely have already done so. But there are other choices and that's what many are working on. And I'd also like to point out it's NOT only people of faith who don't like the agendas being taught and who would like to see schools teaching children the basics....that's why you see many supporting accountability from the teachers, people organizing and supporting vouchers and school choice...things the teachers unions oppose and use their political clout to fight against.
Pointing out the Michael Swift's of this country and their agenda, which I notice you refuse/didn't choose to renounce.
And what's which this 'next time your grandchild is attacked by a bully' garbage? I have said, over and over, that I support teaching tolerance of our difference....NOT forcing acceptance of the behavior.
Then you go on to say: Public schools do not teach religion but yet you want your religious views taught anyway.
...something I have NEVER stated. I've said that our Constitutionally guaranteed freedom to practice our religions don't stop at the school-yard gates. That's quite a bit different than how you continue to tell ME what MY views are....again and again.
And again I will point out that removing our children from the public schools is certainly NOT our only option. We can and are working for change and accountability.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 10:38:53 AM new
classic - In regards to your questioning Libra on her education...I'm curious to understand why you'd ask and what you are saying.
If I'm taking you correctly, and I may not be, you appear to be 'discounting' her training because it wasn't a formal college education? Am I correct or all off base?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 11:43:47 AM new
First to answer your questions...
Those hours of instruction you took,how many of those did you actually have to pay for. All of them. There were either at night or on weekends. I spent many a weekend from my home in order to get the hours I needed to keep up my RT. Many weeks weren't cheap either. Nothing was tax deductible. This was in between the weekends I was on call.
My sister graduated from college in 1954 and retired in 1994. Do the math I think yours is wrong.
[b]So I take it from your answer to my question is that you have no college or degree.
Are you getting my point[/b]? No I am not.
I was in a hospital based program, as that is all there was back then. I spent 2 consecative years, less two weeks studying and when I was finished I had to take a national registry. Yes we had courses we had to take during that 2 years and then OTJT.
Before you knock my education try going to the emergency and needing x-rays or CT or even a special procedure. You will be happy to have someone with knowledge as that is the criteria for all Radiologic Technologists
posted on January 25, 2005 11:49:26 AM newPointing out the Michael Swift's of this country and their agenda, which I notice you refuse/didn't choose to renounce.
Just one man's opinion which does not represent the (supposed) "gay agenda" as you would like to say.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I am sure if you put your agenda in writing there would be a group of people that would find your agenda just as offensive.
that I support teaching tolerance of our difference....NOT forcing acceptance of the behavior.
Teaching tolerance does not include accepting values you do not agree with. I have stated what the definition of tolerance is a few times already, but you seem to have your own definition of what tolerance is and is not. No where in my definitions of tolerance does it say one needs to accept the beliefs of other, it does say people need to be aware that other people may have different values than the ones you may have and there is nothing wrong with having a differnt set of beliefs. Tolerance should be taught in school these days. In doing so you will need to discuss "different beliefs and moral values"
...something I have NEVER stated. I've said that our Constitutionally guaranteed freedom to practice our religions don't stop at the school-yard gates. That's quite a bit different than how you continue to tell ME what MY views are....again and again.
Linda I am not naive. I know what your views are when it comes to homosexuality. You think it is wrong because the bible says it is wrong. Your views are based entirely on the religious aspect. (you are entitled to your beliefs but do not push them onto everyone else). You have made your views clear over and over.
I had posted a thread about the gay couple who wanted to send their child to a Catholic school. Your response was "Why in the world a parent would want his child put in a situation where the belief systems are different from theirs is beyond me. Just pushing the system once again."
In my opinion you are doing the exact same thing in your responses above. If you do not like what is being taught in PUBLIC Schools then don't send your child....or are you just trying to push the system.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 25, 2005 11:55:27 AM new
LOL.. Libra.. with your bad spelling, I'd be a tad apprehensive having you as my X-Ray Tech...
ulna...vulva..ulna..vulva... get the picture!
LOL....
posted on January 25, 2005 12:28:07 PM new
no Linda,my point was she was complaining about her sister retiring at age 55 with great benefits.Well my take on it is that Libra didnt have to pay for any of the training she received.
Her sister on the other hand had to pay for 4 and probably 5 or 6 years of college(if you have your masters degree,which you have to have to teach in N.Y.)-and Im sure the Profe will tell you this- it is NOT cheap-it takes years to make this up plus all the hard work you had to do to get your masters degree.So here you have the average joe blow making money the 5 or 6 years while people like the profe are PAYING money all this time.How long do you think it will take him to catch up to you?? Then you the nerve to complain about the unions the teachers have? Yes the unions are there to protect the teachers,thats ONE of the reasons that unions are for,to protect its employees-its that way with ANY union.Unions are also for getting you good benefits,pay raises,and preventing unfair labor practices-like getting fired because the principal doesnt like you.Are there bad teachers,of course there are-but there are also bad cops,doctors,nurses,fireman,in fact in any profession you can find bad people.
If you want to talk about bad systems, how about the Medical profession?
If some doctor misdiagnoses my illness I could die! how bad is that?? Yes doctors do misdiagnose illness's thats why people go for a second opinon--go for a second opinon? If the doctor was doing his job correctly in the first place,I wouldnt a second opinon-hello??whats wrong with this picture??????
So before you knock the education system,I would LOVE to see you people try and do it yourselves and THEN come back and complain about it.
posted on January 25, 2005 01:05:05 PM new
logansdad - Still not willing to either denounce Michael Swift's agenda nor support it huh? LOL
-------
Then you, once again, go on to use your crystal ball and make statements that you DON'T know are true.
I know what your views are when it comes to homosexuality. You think it is wrong because the bible says it is wrong.
My views on homosexuality are that if two men or two women want to have sex between themselves, that's their business. But when they bring that 'business' into change laws and indoctrinating our young....THEN I don't support that. You had a big problem with me not supporting gay marriage....and you continue to make statements about my belief system. We all have one....whether it's to choose to accept or reject any political issue is part of who we are. Point being there are many non-religious people who also DON'T support gay marriage and you wouldn't be able to 'hang' their belief system on religion. You just use it as an excuse.
Your views are based entirely on the religious aspect. (you are entitled to your beliefs but do not push them onto everyone else).
NO. YOU'RE WRONG ONCE AGAIN....as usual when you 'guess/assume' things about me.
I had posted a thread about the gay couple who wanted to send their child to a Catholic school. Your response was "Why in the world a parent would want his child put in a situation where the belief systems are different from theirs is beyond me. Just pushing the system once again."
LOL yes, in a private school it's costs lots of money....seems very silly and very unusual that they'd choose to have their children in a school whose belief systems go against what their parents lifestyle is like.
In my opinion you are doing the exact same thing in your responses above. If you do not like what is being taught in PUBLIC Schools then don't send your child....or are you just trying to push the system.
Well since you're so often wrong about what you 'think/guess at'....your opinion on my thinking is less than credible with me.
It's been the liberal agenda to ADD all these issue to our public schools curriculum.....rather than letting our school children fail...and I support taking out the 'un-necessary' and sticking to teach the basics again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 01:22:56 PM new
classic -
no Linda,my point was she was complaining about her sister retiring at age 55 with great benefits.
I didn't take her statement as complaining....rather just mentioning it.
Well my take on it is that Libra didnt have to pay for any of the training she received.
But now you read that she did indeed pay her own way.
Her sister on the other hand had to pay for 4 and probably 5 or 6 years of college(if you have your masters degree,which you have to have to teach in N.Y)
Four years and one year of teacher training is all that's required in CA. That is why many on the 'right' support what the teachers are AGAINST....pay for their level of education. The more education they have...the more money they will be paid. Along with weeding out the terrible teachers.
-and Im sure the Profe will tell you this- it is NOT cheap-it takes years to make this up plus all the hard work you had to do to get your masters degree.
I don't believe I've ever read the profe mention he has a masters....maybe he does...but I don't know. He may just have a BA.
And it's not cheap for anyone to get a college education...this issue isn't relivant in regards to only teachers.
So here you have the average joe blow making money the 5 or 6 years while people like the profe are PAYING money all this time.How long do you think it will take him to catch up to you??
Gee, was it HIS decision to become a teacher or was he forced into it? Come on, classic. HIS choice.
Then you the nerve to complain about the unions the teachers have?
I sure do. And so does EVERY American taxpayer whose taxes are support and the reason the schools are running in the first place. I don't know about anyone else here but 1/2 of my yearly property tax dollars support my school district. So...LOL...yes, I have the nerve to speak out about what I find is failing our students at such a high rate of taxes. We all do.
Unions and one of the reasons UNIONS in general have been losing their membership numbers too. Many less than when I first started to work. People are aware that they don't do much for them except take part of their pay each week. The teachers unions are the exception.
preventing unfair labor practices-like getting fired because the principal doesnt like you.
That's nonsense, period. It's takes an act of God to remove a teacher....no matter how bad they are. Have you ever looked at the number of teachers who are dismissed? I have....and I'm going on memory only but in the state of CA in a ten year period only 10 teachers were dismissed. You under some false impression that there aren't more 'bad' teachers who are teaching? LOL
but there are also bad cops,doctors,nurses,fireman,in fact in any profession you can find bad people. That's true and they weed them out. NOT done with our teachers.
I do agree all the areas you mentioned ALSO have their 'problems'...but that's no excuse to ignore that we need to have some serious changes and accountability in our school system. For way too long we taxpayers have been POURING billions into the school system without much getting better. It wasn't working as it was...now we're trying something different and the teachers unions are up in arms. Too bad...maybe this will help the drop=out rate....maybe this will help the underprivledged be able to choose a better school district where they CAN learn something. Maybe parents will be 'allowed' by the dems to have school choice and vouchers to help their struggling children.
No amount of defending the poor teachers unions is as important as starting to actually TEACH our children what they need to know so that not only will their futures be brighter....but their education will help our economics too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 03:14:14 PM new
Well Classic I hate to burst your bubble but my sister did not pay for her masters degree. The school system did and she also received her salary while doing it.
That is what is written in their teachers contract.....
Well maggie now you sound like Kiara and crowfarm, crap I said that name, I can misspell what I want to and you can also as I will never tell you that you did. This is a discussion board not a spelling bee....
Aren't you the one that had the thread about misspelled words?
posted on January 25, 2005 03:59:29 PM new
BTW classic I have never been sued. Yes it is possible to sue Radiologic Technologists but I am not one of them....In fact I have never worked at any hospital or clinic that the x-ray department was sued.
Of course I think you can sue teachers for sexual assault and that is in the papers quite frequently. In fact it was the headlines in our paper today. But I guess you think that is okay....
posted on January 25, 2005 04:58:04 PM new
no Libra I do not-however there was a male nurse in New Jersey that was finally arrested after killing 8 people in 4 different hospitals
over a 6 year period-but then I guess you think THATS okay.
posted on January 25, 2005 05:17:27 PM newIm sure the Profe will tell you this- it is NOT cheap-it takes years to make this up plus all the hard work you had to do to get your masters degree
You can say that again.
In my state, teachers are required to obtain either a master's degree or 90 semester hours of approved course work within 5 years of being newly certified. In addition, they must show 90 hours every six years in order to renew their certification once that master's degree is earned. Most districts increase pay according to a combination of semester hours earned beyond a bachelor's degree (typically in 12 hour steps) and years of experience. Entry level salaries are low in many states. A newly certified teacher has to pretty much immediately go back to school and begin working on that MS or MA, to the tune of at least 450.00 per semester hour's credit, plus travel and expenses. So much for the myth of teachers having summers free..virtually all of them have to go to school for at least one full summer session, at their own expense. My district has a pretty static tax base, and our salaries have been frozen now for six years. No raises, yet most of our teachers have to continue going to school to satisfy state re-certification requirements. First year teachers in my district begin their first contracts at $24, 500...I'm lucky, under the laws that I was first certified, once you achieved either a PHD, an EdD, or an EdS, you were done going to school. I received my Education Specialist's degree in Curriculum and Administration 10 years ago, so I'm done going to school. I still haven't seen a raise in in 6 years, other than some paltry raises in the base salary. If I worked another 10 years, which I don't intend to do, I would not begin to make up the years of experience raises I have missed out on during this freeze.
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on January 25, 2005 05:31:12 PM newLOL yes, in a private school it's costs lots of money....seems very silly and very unusual that they'd choose to have their children in a school whose belief systems go against what their parents lifestyle is like.
I figured you would state that. You might as well but an asterick by everything you say because you always have an escape clause.
It makes no difference. If the parents have the money to send their child to a private school then so be it. What is wrong with the child learning "the moral values of the Church".
If you truly don't discriminate and are tolerant of other people's views then you wouldn't have one set of rules for a certain group of people.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 25, 2005 06:30:09 PM new
classic - When you made the statement about getting rid of teachers only because the principle doesn't like them. LOL Told me right then and there you don't understand how the system works. There are many processes taken before a teacher is actually dismissed. And even those where there is proof they are failing our students...it takes endless amounts of money to get them out...and the process fails so often that each district must decide if they can even AFFORD to go down that long road.
-----------------
logansdad - If the parents have the money to send their child to a private school then so be it. What is wrong with the child learning "the moral values of the Church".
LOL - You're really funny today, logan. Gee...what possible problems could a gay couple have putting their children in a church school where their parents lifestyle is against their teachings. You really can't figure that one out? how sad.
If you truly don't discriminate and are tolerant of other people's views then you wouldn't have one set of rules for a certain group of people. Again - tolerance is NOT acceptance. Gay parents who would suject their own children to a religious school where their lifestyle is against the church's beliefs and instruction....are the people with the problem.
Being that some people have no choice and have to place their children in a public school, for financial reasons....doesn't mean they have to accept and approve of them being taught things that go against their beliefs. And if they'd just return to basics...and stay away from promoting all this other stuff...then there would be fewer problems.
But I understand logan....that's not your agenda. And since many don't agree with your agenda....we fight in the courts, at the school boards and sometimes with our own lawyers...and we vote for those who do support our views.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 25, 2005 06:44:16 PM new
Just to put Profe's point into better perspective... I am currently working on my Bachelors Degree at Wright State Universty here in Dayton.
Tuition runs roughly $2600 a quarter for four classes. Books USUALLY run around another $400, so figure on about $12,000 a year. And this isn't the most expensive school in town, either.
I just wished I'd finished all this 14 years ago instead of spending so much time on business.
--------------------------------------
Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
http://www.replaymedia.com
[ edited by replaymedia on Jan 25, 2005 06:45 PM ]
posted on January 25, 2005 07:02:11 PM new
Profe, don't get defensive, I'll take it for granted that teaching is often a thankless task where you get hind teat. I worked as a CA state employee for years and know how that goes. And I have seen jerks with connections get promoted because of who they blow, er, I mean know. That doesn't lessen the quagmire that administrative abuse and PC zeal have made of the educational system in this country. Go to a teacher's convention and see how they dress. Their similarity in dress and thought brings the Moonies to mind, only more dangerous. You may not belong to the cult, the majority of teachers may not belong to the cult, does that mean that it doesn't exist and isn't a crisis in American education? Not, IMHO.
__________
posted on January 25, 2005 07:39:26 PM new
Parklane,
If defending in some measure a profession I have been proud to be a part of for 27 years is what you call getting defensive, that's to goddamn bad.I don't dispute that there is a crisis in American education, and trust me, unless you're a teacher too, I've been to far more education conventions than you have. I'm sure you'll find a given measure of outward sameness at any profession's gatherings,whether it's education, the law, or medicine. So what.
What galls me, the only thing that galls me about this topic is those who think there are simple answers to fix a system which is well and truly broken, and which is being fed it's raw materials (the kids) who come in greater and greater measure from families which are well and truly broken too. The President thinks his NCLB program is going to fix things. I've got news for him, just as many kids are now and will be left behind as there ever were. A good case can be made that in fact more are now falling through the cracks due to the emphasis on standardized testing as the only measure of a kid and his school's success. NCLB is feel-good-by-god-we're-gonna-make-those-lazy-liberal-teachers-accountable-and-then-our-kids-will-be-as-smart-as-the -germans-and-japs lipservice, nothing more. Fixing American education is going to take a whole lot more than revamping tenure, or making it easier to fire teachers. Sure there are abuses of the system. If you thought that those involved in education were somehow not human like everybody else, I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you. You will find the same human shortcomings among educators that you find everywhere else. Making teachers more accountable is a good thing. But it won't fix the system. Ending tenure will save districts lots of money, that's a good thing, but it'll fill the classrooms with inexperienced teachers, maybe not such a good thing. It won't fix the system either. How about some parent accountability while we're at it? Allowing a child out the door to school without having had a good night's sleep and a real honest to god breakfast is child abuse, in my opinion, and should be prosecutable. Parents' repeated failure to come to a requested parent teacher conferencefor a failing kid should absolve a teacher and his school of all responsibility for a child's failure. If we don't have the backup from home, we cannot perform our job to the best of our ability. All of these things and many more are factors in the breakdown of our schools. It's the simpletons who want to blame it all on educators that gets my dander up.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on January 25, 2005 08:11:23 PM new
Classic I see you didn't mention anything about the Masters Degree but then since I proved you wrong why would you.
You also didn't say anything about your math. I hope your not a math teacher..
You made the statement I had 5 or 6 years to make money. Well my wage when I was working at that time was approximately $5,000.00 a year.
I enjoyed my years as an Radiologic Technologist and I would do it again if I had to. No amount of money would make me a teacher. I don't believe in unions, I would never join a union. Unions only protect the workers who don't abide by rules.
and don't do their job. Tough to fire a union worker. I have seen first hand what unions do and I want no part of them. JMHO
And Maggie what does spelling have to do with taking x-rays, well Mammograms. Evidently you are stupid when it comes to that. Oh no did I call Maggie stupid. Yks.
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Well since you're so often wrong about what you 'think/guess at'....your opinion on my thinking is less than credible with me.
