posted on January 30, 2005 04:37:00 PM new
Linda, I haven't "mis-stated the actual facts". We are giving our educated opinion on the results of the elections. You are apparently more hopeful than most and that is understandable since you are an unconditional Bush lover. On the other hand, I have a more objective viewpoint. You may laugh and question my "word" but it only makes you appear silly.
Twelve, I believe the election is just as premature as the Mission Accomplished banner. A successful election can't be held in a country under siege.
posted on January 30, 2005 04:47:38 PM new
How in gods name can someone actually be negative towards this situation. Hell, even I thought it was going to be a mistake to hold these elections right now and I'll admit I was wrong. No where near the violece I expected.
Millions of people braved the threat of violence to go out and place a vote and you wonder how they feel? I think it's a pretty safe bet that if they were indifferent they would not have bothered.
I think that that this is a wonderful thing. The Iraqi people want their country back and want to have a say in the running of it and millions of people across the country risked the threats of death to go out and say just that.
Oh and Park - Do you have TV's in your home? Reporting on this has been on mainstream media all day with overwhelmingly positive reports.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 30, 2005 04:54:14 PM newlinduh was all for torturing these people a few months ago.
Crowfarm has repeatedly made this accusation in multiple threads, over and over. As someone who has read these boards (and occasionally responded) for years, I've yet to see any post from Linda (or anyone for that matter) advocating and rejoicing in torture. I guess this is supposed to be some sort of dig at Linda but it just gets more and more pathetic everytime I see it.
posted on January 30, 2005 04:57:02 PM new
I always knew there was a reason I liked you fenix...it's called fairness to call it as it is...no matter the political line speak.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 30, 2005 05:26:55 PM new
Thank you fiset, I appreciate that, truly.
helen...yes I do. It was a time when our soldiers had completed a major take-over, they'd remove saddam from power. Their mission has been successful.
Not at all the way you and other anti-war people were scaring others with...the soldiers are all going to die...they'll use chemical on our soldiers...hundreds/thousands are going to be killed if we send them in. Oh the scare tactics the anti=war group laid out...none of which happened....again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 30, 2005 05:56:13 PM new
Linda said, "Not at all the way you and other anti-war people were scaring others with...the soldiers are all going to die...they'll use chemical on our soldiers...hundreds/thousands are going to be killed if we send them in. Oh the scare tactics the anti=war group laid out...none of which happened....again."
You've been in a dream world, linda. I never said ALL soldiers would die and I never mentioned chemical warfare. If you are going to attribute statements to me, you will have to post links. It's easy for you to sit upon your pedestal and say everything is fine in Iraq but guess what? Nobody with a brain believes it.
posted on January 30, 2005 06:08:48 PM new
Twelve, I'm just stating my opinion about the success of the election. When one faction of Iraq does not vote and many are afraid to vote, I can't call that a success. As spazmodeus said on another board, "It's lipstick on a pig, no matter how much verbal pageantry you clowns dress it up with."
posted on January 30, 2005 06:15:36 PM new
Good thing you weren't around in the Civil war days...when the voting took place then....or where you? ...cause not all American's were able to vote then either. None-the-less the election was still held.
Point being helen...you haven't supported our soldiers there at all....not with one word...only offering doom and gloom statements and calls from the beginning of the war for us to 'admit defeat and get out'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 30, 2005 06:35:09 PM new "Point being helen...you haven't supported our soldiers there at all....not with one word...only offering doom and gloom statements and calls from the beginning of the war for us to 'admit defeat and get out'."
I support our soldiers in wanting them home, linda. There is absolutely no justification to endanger their lives or the lives of the Iraqi people. We should establish a definite time frame in which we will leave Iraq.
Someone like you who cannot see "doom and gloom" is working with a significant handicap. How can you offer support for the troops when you fail to see what is happening in Iraq?
posted on January 30, 2005 06:43:16 PM new
I don't fail to see anything helen. I support the Iraqi's voting...for the first time in 50 years...for the type of government they want. I'm very relieved to see there weren't the mass murders that many were expecting. Does that upset you in some way? I'd think we'd all be happy it turned out as well as it did. But...not you, obviously.
I also support our soldiers...I don't pretend to like you do. They have a mission, and they're doing it in an honorable way. You just don't like it...so you have refused to even recognize ANY good thing that they accomplish....or that happens over there.
That's wearing blinders, helen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
I'm glad the Iraquis got to vote, however it will never be said that the winner of the election was elected by a majority of the people there. The elections should have been held off until some stability could be accomplished. I don't think the results of the election will be fair because not everyone had the opportunity to vote. Those that didn't vote feared for their lives and I don't blame them for staying away. They've witnessed enough bloodshed and most have lost someone they love or know to this war.
I'm sorry, but every time Bush or a member of his administration does something wrong, they quickly change things hoping no one will notice. We went to war because Saddam had WOMD and could use them at any minute. Not because he suddenly felt sorry for the people there and wanted to liberate them. That came AFTER it was apparent that they'd find no WOMD. It's called trying to "save face". IMO, it was a little too late and too high a cost for that.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on January 31, 2005 05:13:57 AM new
Wow is your people's hatred of President Bush tainted your vision that much?
Obviously those saying that some didn't vote are correct however you are leaving out a very important part... they were mostly Sunni's- Saddam's people... They have said all along they would not vote.
It was their choice not to, you do understand the word choice don't you?
This was a fantastic day in Iraq... it is too bad some are blinded by hatred to see that
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on January 31, 2005 05:26:31 AM new
cheryl you know what is really hard for me to swallow and digest? The fact that you, (you in general) people who claim to be the staunchist of democrats, can never get out of the starting gate!!! wtf is wrong with you aLL?
gET PAST the reasons of why the war was started already!!! You're at the mall, Read the sign: YOU ARE HERE - ok now how do you get to THERE? -- is it the best you can do to walk back to the parking lot first and retrace your each and every step?
-do you want to see progress at all? - do you want to see the soldiers come home? How about thinking of how we NOW accomplish that??
...and good luck finding your car after two years of walking around n round!! LOL>>>
posted on January 31, 2005 06:31:35 AM new
#1 - I don't know wtf (to put it in your words) you are reading into my post. I said I was glad they got to vote. I didn't say it was a bad thing. I think they should have waited until things were more stable. My opinion and I'm entitled to it without your (your in general) typical Republican rantings.
#2 - No one in this administration is willing to talk about an exit strategy because they don't have one. They've been asked the question over and over again and they cannot answer it. So, maybe somehow you can find a way to blame the Democrats for that.
#3 - twelve, if the ones that didn't vote (and they are the MAJORITY) are Saddam's people, then what makes you think the whole "mission" isn't doomed? I am hopeful that the majority didn't vote because they're too afraid to. I'm also hopeful that Saddam's people are in the minority - an insignificant number.
Stop reading things into what we say. Not one of us is saying we're not happy people got to vote. Not one of us is saying we should drop everything and leave now. We did that to Afghanistan (how is Afghanistan, BTW?). What we are saying is that this whole mess could have been avoided had someone, somewhere been honest in the first place. No one likes to feel they've been "duped". You know, there might have been more support for this war had Bush said the people of Iraq are suffering and we need to correct that. We need to liberate them. Instead, he told a big fat lie that cost thousands of lives and countless dollars, which BTW, we'll never be paid back for.
Now, since I'm at work with the flu because no one else can bother to come in today, I may be very cranky and sound irate. I am not - irate that is, cranky I am. I'm just sick and tired of the "you Democrats", "you Liberals" bushsh*t that I hear coming out of most of your mouths. Is it no wonder we dislike Bush and his administration so much. You all set such a fine example.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on January 31, 2005 06:35:25 AM new -do you want to see progress at all? - do you want to see the soldiers come home? How about thinking of how we NOW accomplish that??
posted on January 31, 2005 06:49:44 AM new
Here's another way to look at voter turnout. If only 60% registered to vote and if only 40% of them actually voted:
If you have (an example number) 200,000 people and 60% of them are registered, that's 120,000 registered to vote. If only 40% of them actually voted that's 48,000 people who voted. So what you have is a whopping 24% of all the people who voted. A 24% voter turn-out is not exactly a huge victory. It's a small step and should be treated as that. 24% hardly represents the majority of the people.
You cannot change thousands of years of tradition in a matter of a couple of years. It will take more than giving people the right to vote. A democracy takes work and a lot of it. What you should be asking is how much are the MAJORITY of the people of Iraq willing to sacrifice - (so far it appears only 24% are willing to sacrifice)? People starved in Russia when they were brought Democracy. Are the people of Iraq willing to go as far? Can that type of freedom really be taught in so short a time? As a friend of mine from Syria says, these people's lives are steeped in tradition. It goes back generations. It cannot be changed over night. It could be that it cannot be changed at all.
If liberation was the true course set by Bush, they should have had a far better plan. IMO, it was not about liberating anyone. It was about revenge for 9/11 and the laugh, in the end, will be on us in lives lost and dollars spent.
A discussion on an exit strategy would be a good thing. I've yet to hear a viable one coming from anywhere.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jan 31, 2005 06:50 AM ]
posted on January 31, 2005 07:02:49 AM new "gET PAST the reasons of why the war was started already!!! You're at the mall, Read the sign: YOU ARE HERE - ok now how do you get to THERE? -- is it the best you can do to walk back to the parking lot first and retrace your each and every step?"
According to the Rand Corp, insurgency usually takes ten years to resolve. That's a fact to consider when you go to the "mall" just as you might consider how long it would take you to repay a 10,000 debt that you might incur in the mall. As you walk across that parking lot, it would be advantageous to think about the lessons of history along with the future. Being oriented in the present moment with no regard for the lessons of history or thought of the future is a recipe for disaster.
posted on January 31, 2005 07:45:06 AM new
dblfugger9 - As I lay in bed sick I figured out that-
"Who knows what evil luks in the hearts of men"
is what the shadow said. Not the fat man.
posted on January 31, 2005 07:57:12 AM new
Hey, Libra, you're sick too? I came down with it last night. Had to run into work to open up because no one else could manage to come in until 10:30 a.m. It's the pits, isn't it? My daughter and granddaughter are both ill as well. Get better soon!
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on January 31, 2005 07:58:26 AM new
shaking my head here....
on our history helen....we ARE looking to history and we see exactly how long it took in Japan and Germany...and look at that bonus we've had for years. No longer our enemies....
and we're STILL in their countries.
On the voting numbers....there's been no official announcement about how many voted, in total.... they have given different areas and a 'guess' at their numbers....some as high as 70%....some almost none. 90% of Iraqi's who don't live in Iraq have voted.
There's nothing to be disregarded or offered as proof that so many didn't vote, at this time. Heck we only have to look to our own numbers...how many are registered...how many actually came out to vote. Usually somewhere between 50-56% on our national elections. And how long as the US been voting. Give me a break....it's a GREAT beginning.
And for those who might think things have been different under a kerry administration... Watched kerry being interview on Meet the Press yesterday. Russert asked him if he would support kennedy's statement about withdrawing 12,000 of our troops, immediately. kerry said NO!!! Will he be voting for the $80Billion dollars for the war efforts? Most likely, probably was his answer.
So I don't see the guy you supported saying he'd do much differently. Of course he continued with his 'this administration should have done that' routine...rehash of past issues...but my point is he doesn't even support kennedy's withdrawal suggestion.
I agree with whoever it was that said kennedy should sit down and shut up. What timing he had in talking about troop withdrawals....3 days before their election. His timing stinks too. Just giving more encouragement to our enemies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 31, 2005 08:09 AM ]
posted on January 31, 2005 08:00:36 AM new
cheryl - You only make yourself look ignorant when you continue to say he didn't have/doesn't have a plan. A plan has been talked about for months....he's been quoted for months saying when he expects to bring our troops home.
Because you don't agree or like the PLAN...doesn't mean there's not one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on January 31, 2005 08:07:50 AM newHere's another way to look at voter turnout. If only 60% registered to vote and if only 40% of them actually voted
I heard a news report that voting was low in 4 of the largest provinces in Iraq. In order to make up for the low voting turnout in these provinces, they had to open up the vote to the Iraq ex-patriots.
Personally I dont understand why former Iraqi citizens are allowed to vote in the Iraqi elections when they are no longer citizens of that country.
Just because the Iraqis voted does not mean this election will solve any of the problems there:
The 275-member National Assembly, elected for an 11-month term, will draft a permanent constitution, and if the document is approved, Iraqis will vote for a permanent government in December. If the document is rejected, Iraqis will repeat the whole process again.
Participation by Sunnis in the vote remained a crucial question. There are fears that many in the influential minority -- which resents the loss of its past power and the U.S. presence in Iraq -- will not accept the results of the election, which is likely to bring the Shiite majority to power.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on January 31, 2005 08:07:52 AM new
Well then, let me re-phrase that for you, Linda. No one will say WHEN the troops will be coming home. No one will give even an estimate. Condi Rice was asked and didn't answer. Why? Because it could be YEARS. So, if you have a date or even an estimate in mind, I'd appreciate you sharing it.
A comment on Bush's plan to bring troops home from around the world: "Unfortunately, the Bush plan will not affect the roughly 150,000 U.S. troops occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. By any measure, those are the troops that should be brought home first." - August 2004
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on January 31, 2005 08:28:36 AM new
we ARE looking to history and we see exactly how long it took in Japan and Germany...and look at that bonus we've had for years. No longer our enemies....
and we're STILL in their countries.
While we are still in those countries mentioned above, we are not at war with them. We have troops stationed in those countries for strategic military reasons, not for war and not to serve as peace keeping forces. There is a difference Linda.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
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