posted on June 27, 2001 01:36:36 PM new
Since I am totally dissatisfied with PayPal's attitude toward my case, I took your advice and filed a complaint with the BBB.
You seem to know more about the BBB and the complaint process then I do, and I was wondering if you could let me know what (if anything) to expect.
Since the BBB gives both PayPal, Inc and PayPal.com their lowest possible rating, am I right in assuming that PayPal is not doing much to resolve any complaints brought to them by the BBB?
Any info you could provide would be appreciated.
thanks
Rob
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 27, 2001 01:37 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2001 07:01:58 AM new
The complaint goes to the company and the BBB makes an independent evaluation of how the company responded.
I've heard PayPal state they've reduced complaints, but I'm not aware that the BBB has released such figures, so there's no way to verify that. Their rating remains "unsatisfactory" so I think that tells you something.
Priceline, with its 10+ million customers, ran into a similar rebuke by the BBB and was able to clear it up within 3 months...
posted on June 29, 2001 07:40:29 AM new
My personal complaint went ignored until I involved the BBB. Once the BBB forwarded Paypal my complaint, they responded immediately. However, it was not a positive response. Damon, on the other hand, was able to arange remedy quite quickly. Since then, I still received e-mail from Paypal stating I was SOL, even though I got my funds and already withdrew them. Other folks with the same complaint have not had their cases addressed in a positive manor.
I think they knew that I knew something that I didn't think they knew I know nor wanted me to know, and I didn't tell. Of course this statement only makes sense to one person out there, and I wish that "never to be named person" (I promised) would respond to my e-mail.
posted on June 29, 2001 08:03:39 AM newOnce the BBB forwarded Paypal my complaint, they responded immediately. However, it was not a positive response. Damon, on the other hand, was able to arange remedy quite quickly.
It often appears that Damon is the only hope some users have of geting their problems resolved. I checked out the "Customer Service" links on PayPal's site, but was unable to find any way to contact Damon there.
So if...
PayPal customer service department = possibly no resolution...
and
Damon on AW = possibly quick resolution...
but
PayPal's customer service department doesn't provide contact information for Damon...
that must mean... well, what do you think about a company unwilling to provide access to what is apparently the only avenue available for problem resolution?
posted on June 29, 2001 08:54:50 AM new
It appears to me that Damon's presence on the AW boards is to primarily counter the abundant negative publicity. He is able to help some people while often clarifying Paypal’s position with the oft-quoted TOU. As an added bonus, AW gives him a pulpit to espouse Paypal’s great new services and system changes. The fact that Paypal has employees monitoring and responding to message boards is telling. Unfortunately, many people displeased with Paypal are unaware of this message boards existence.
If someone knows of any message boards that are either fairly moderated or un-moderated, please e-mail me the link.
posted on June 29, 2001 09:26:06 AM newIt appears to me that Damon's presence on the AW boards is to primarily counter the abundant negative publicity.
posted on July 1, 2001 10:01:02 PM new
I also filed complaints with the BBB and the FTC but so what? What can they do that I have not by sending copies of the complaint to PayPal. That hasn't done any good so far. I am even going so far as to open police complaints on the character who defrauded me with PayPal shield of secrecy to protect him.
What does an unsatisfactory rating mean to PayPal. Its not stopping them or doesn't appear to be changing them.
Does the BBB have any teeth or are we relying on PayPal to "do the right thing" here.
posted on July 2, 2001 03:52:26 AM new
The BBB rating is atrociously bad publicity for PayPal. Each additional day they have that rating makes it harder for them to explain away their poor customer service and disregard for consumer privacy.
posted on July 2, 2001 01:54:10 PM new
I am not convinced that anyone outside of PayPal gives a Rat's Tail about BBB ratings.
I made a search of the BBB database and noticed that Citibank, Palm, and Cisco systems also had a good number of complaints. Palm had a negative rating.
Yet the largest bank, largest PDA maker, and largest networking companies never get any press about the BBB "negative" rating.
The BBB really does not make much of a judgement call about a company. They simply note that customers have been complaining, and companies have been responding.
posted on July 2, 2001 06:51:07 PM new
Whoa... lot of propaganda there. CitiBank, the largest bank in the country, does not have a negative rating with the BBB. They don't even have a lot of complaints.
Cisco, again, no negative rating. No listing at all of the number of complaints.
I do see Palm has a negative rating. That's bad. But what's your point? No one said there aren't companies with negative ratings.
Yes, the press usually does report if it is a large or notable company. Yes, consumers do care - that's why the Better Business Bureau continues to operate...
Yes, the BBB does keep track of the complaints received against a company.
I don't believe, however, that they allow companies to refute the claims.
I also don't believe that they remove complaints for items brought about by user error, such as not following a specific policy (I could be wrong, but that is the immediate understanding I have on the BBB).
We do take note of the claims made by users that are reported to the BBB. We then address what we can change on an operational level to reduce confusion,etc.
posted on July 3, 2001 01:19:15 PM new
The BBB makes its money from contributions from its "member companies." In order to be a member company, you have to agree to maintain a good reputation with them. That is why a lot of people complain that the BBB can't really be impartial because it's difficult to accept money from a company and then tell folks that it's not a good company. There are even a few (unsubstantiated) reports of lawsuits where the BBB gave a company a good rating and it later turned out that the company has a lot of complaints pending against them but was a big contributor.
And YES, the BBB will change a company's rating if they address the problem, as Paypal well knows when they announced about 6 months ago that they were working with the BBB to improve their rating.
So it is very revealling that PP refuses to admit that there are any problems. Bankrate is wrong, Salon Magazine is wrong, the Wall St Journal is wrong, the BBB is wrong, the hundreds of customers complaining are all wrong, only PP is right. And as long as this attitude continues, you can bet there won't be any improvement because after all, PP says there is nothing to improve.
It's very sad to see PP join the long list of folks who were number one and then went to sleep at the wheel while number two tried harder. But those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. If something doesnt change, PP could very well be history.
posted on July 3, 2001 02:55:18 PM newIt's very sad to see PP join the long list of folks who were number one and then went to sleep at the wheel while number two tried harder.
I just wish that there was a viable 'number two' automated payment service. Although going to 7-11 for a money order is livable, nothing beat the ease and convienience of PayPal.
posted on July 6, 2001 09:50:10 AM new
Funny how that post criticizing the BBB is from one of those brand-new users who immediately decide to rail against criticism of PayPal and then never post anything again.
Damon, I believe the culprit for the negative BBB rating is PayPal's poor customer service and lack of respect for customer privacy.
The boards are not indicative of overall customer service levels.
The information we ask for to establish an account, or increase spending limits, is not much different than any other payment provider. Many of the providers, or even eBay, are now requiring users to register a bank account/credit card to open an account.
posted on July 6, 2001 07:24:41 PM new
So after having my account restricted for 6 months, having sent 2 checks to
Paypal because they instructed me to send the first one to a wrong address and
finally getting the replacement to them (less the $20 stop payment fee), I find
the below response by Paypal to be unbelievably inept!!!
Okay, now is the time for the "paypaldamon" to take charge. Going
on for half a year is ridiculous. I don't have access to a FAX. I WILL NOT USE
A COMPANY FAX FOR PERSONAL USE!!
=========================================
On Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:08:57 -0700 "[email protected]"
<[email protected] wrote:
Dear Mr. Krueger,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
Can you please fax us a front and back copy of the check we cashed which
has not been credited to your PayPal account.
Attn: chargebacks
402-935-2239.
Sincerely,
Emily
PayPal Chargeback Division
Original Message Follows:
-------------------------
Form Message
email address: awkrueger
first name: Arthur
last name: Krueger
account type: personal
verification status: Verified
activity level: other
date established: 01/31/00
country type: Domestic
rc: no
rs: cbkb-m
message type: restricted webform
customer message: When will the restriction be lifted. You cashed the
check according to my bank statement.
posted on July 6, 2001 08:59:02 PM new
At least you have an admittance here that they cashed your check!
"Can you please fax us a front and back copy of the check we cashed which has not been credited to your PayPal account".
[ edited by fortnum on Jul 6, 2001 09:00 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 10:22:48 AM new
Earlier, someone posted the URL for BBB Silicon Valley: http://www.bbbsilicon.org/complaint.html
Can someone give me the official (California?) mailing/contact address for PayPal? This is needed to file a BBB complaint.
I too, have had no support from PayPal in dealing with an unscrupulous seller (PayPal verified no less) who sent the wrong item (totally different) than what was purchased. I returned the errant item, and never received a refund or the correct item. And get this .. PayPal refuses to chargeback the seller because (so they say) this is an issue of PRODUCT ATTRIBUTES OR QUALITY ??? Not covered by their buyer protection plan. Huh .. ? Seems to me, using their response, pretty much every situation is covered. Interesting too, since I returned the product, what attributes or quality could they be talking about?
I intend to file a BBB complaint, then get the local media involved -- they want to do a piece on online scams and online payment systems.
Damon - can you assist me?
[ edited by wmb003 on Jul 7, 2001 10:25 AM ]
[ edited by wmb003 on Jul 7, 2001 10:26 AM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 10:34:00 AM new
They have proof they mailed you something and you mailed it back without getting your money back first. I am sure the seller has a postal reciept showing it was mailed and you have no other alternative. You can't be refunded your money because of the chance of fraud. I am not by any means saying you are guilty of this but what would stop anyone from getting the merchadise then saying its not what I ordered and wanting the money back. Then they have the merchandise money and the seller is left with nothing. just my opinion but trying to look at it from a sellers point of view
posted on July 7, 2001 10:49:40 AM new
I have irrefutable proof that what was sent was incorrect: (1) the seller admits in emails they sent the wrong merchandise, and (2) the total weight of the package sent by the seller was about 1/2 the unwrapped weight of the item that was supposed to have been sent. These figures come from the shipping company itself and the box, and the manufacturer of the goods.
There's no communication from the seller to dispute this.
BTW, as far as returning the errant goods before getting my money back, holding on to the disputed goods is implied consent that the goods are acceptable. You cannot hold the goods "ransom" waiting for your money to be returned. This is consitent with most credit card companies' dispute policy. Defective or errant goods must be promptly returned to support your claim.
Besides in this case, the errant goods were valued at about 1/20 of what I paid, so it's very little ransom anyway, and certainly not a show of good faith.
[ edited by wmb003 on Jul 7, 2001 10:54 AM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 12:47:41 PM new
Unfortunately WMB003, there may be correspondance between the other party and PayPal that you are not aware of and PayPal will not either let you know this or even tell you that it is in existence.
In my case, they have the information that I would need to support a legitimate claim of fraud against a buyer (one who PayPal have said has defrauded others by using PayPal) and I am SOL unless I get a subpeona.
Anyone know if it is possible to get a subpeona oneself without having to go to the expense of a lawyer? I have enough parties involved with this as it is, all wanting to take their little piece of the action.
The authorities are reluctant to take a generic complaint without some details like the name and address of the buyer which PayPal knows.
[ edited by fortnum on Jul 7, 2001 12:48 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 03:20:35 PM new
Fortnum, you might want to contact the American Arbitration Association at 1-800-778-7879 and ask them how you go about entering into arbitration with PayPal and if it can be done without a lawyer.
From PayPal's TOU: Arbitration. Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement or the provision of Services shall be settled by binding arbitration in accordance with the commercial arbitration rules of the American Arbitration Association...
I am leery of the claim that a negative rating on the BBB in some way is indicative of poor business practices.
I offer as an example, Palm Computing has the single most popular new consumer electronics device in the last 10 years. I hear people raving about how clever the Palm makes them. They also have a negative rating from the BBB. I find it odd that this negative rating is never metioned in Palm discussion groups-perhaps it is not important for most Palm users.
Alternatively, Microsoft is being sued by the Federal Government, Attorney Generals throughout the USA, and the European Community for unscrupulous business practices. Microsoft is routinely held out for ridicule for poor customer service, and has a long history of litigation with customers, partners, and employees. Microsoft has a satisfactory rating from the BBB.
The rating from the BBB proves one thing, that the company is rated negatively. I don't think you can make much of an inference on the performance of a company's products and services based on a BBB rating.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:18:27 PM new
One of the things the BBB reported was a high incident of accounts being opened for people without their permission (the BBB doesn't even understand the service they are rating LOL.) PayPal lets you send to anyone but they don't have to accept it, same as C2it, PayDirect, and MoneyZap. The difference is PayPal has an astronomical usage rate compared to the others. As one June 4th Information Week article recently put it PayPal adds 50,000 users--the equivalent of the entire customer base of Citibank's c2it online payment system--every two days (and C2it has been digging for customers since October 2000.) I remember that ExchangePath, PayPlace, PayMe, and Tradesafe, had satisfactory ratings with the BBB... right up to the day they went belly-up. ExchangePath was accepted on over 100,000 auctions at one time on eBay. PayDirect, C2it, and MoneyZap combine haven't even managed to reach that level.
If your a disatisfied Delta airline customer you can stand at the counter for a few minutes and get indignant, then you'll be asked to move on. PayPal gives unsatisfied customers the luxury of several message boards to voice their complaints, over and over and over and over and... (sigh) well you get the point.
Some object that they can't get the answers they want from PayPal on these message boards, but they seem to ignore the fact that PayPal does give answers to most questions and are the only service to offer a rep that will respond to anonymous messages, BillPoint won't do it, PayDirect won't do it, C2it won't do it, and MoneyZap won't do it.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:49:36 PM new
>>As one June 4th Information Week article recently put it PayPal adds 50,000 users--the equivalent of the entire customer base of Citibank's c2it online payment system--every two days <<
How many of these are real accounts and how many are by frauds? Romanian George opened at least 45 PP accounts all by himeself. Almost every article about auction fraud also mentions that the crook used a PP account to get the funds.
>>If your a disatisfied Delta airline customer you can stand at the counter for a few minutes and get indignant, then you'll be asked to move on. <<
But that is after you get to speak to a live human being who is trained and authorized to give a response.
>>PayPal gives unsatisfied customers the luxury of several message boards to voice their complaints, over and over and over and over <<
and despite that, the problem often doesnt get resolved until Damon or the BBB gets involved. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You would think by now that PP would get the message that if they want to grow, their customer service would have to grow as well and get trained and be given the authorization to solve problems rather than report that the guy who can handle it doesnt have a phone.
>>they seem to ignore the fact that PayPal does give answers to most questions and are the only service to offer a rep that will respond to anonymous messages, BillPoint won't do it, PayDirect won't do it, C2it won't do it, and MoneyZap won't do it. <<
And you seem to ignore the fact that only paypal HAS to man these boards because their customer service department is virtually non-existent.
C2it and Moneyzap offer toll-free support that is answered just about 24 hours a day and email support that is fast. I dont see ANY messages about them freezing accounts or funds or allowing crooks to open accounts or about charge backs. They dont wait until a customer is posting irate messages here or contacting the BBB before they answer a question.
posted on July 8, 2001 02:08:30 PM new
If PayPal wanted to be seen as a superior customer service provider and an ethical business intent on doing what they can to prevent internet fraud, they would have done so by now. Why bother when you can add 50,000 new customers every two days, at least half of those generating revenue as sellers?
If you do business with them once, get the shaft and never do business with them again they have lost very little.
Building a customer service function is a revenue drain that has no financial benefit to PayPal using their current business model.
The only thing that will make them be more responsive and be sincere and responsible members of the business community is if they WANT TO, which by their actions is obviously not what they are doing.
In the absence of meaningful competition PayPal have little or no incentive to act differently when to do so will reduce profits.
In the meantime, another entity that you can file a complaint with and who, by all accounts are very familiar with PayPal, is the IFCC. They can be found at http://www.ifccfbi.gov/
Don't give up the fight to hold PayPal to higher expectations. If we allow companies to get away with this type of performance we deserve the world that we live in. Many people are now talking about the amount of fraud on the Internet, particularly when those perpetrating the frauds are making such good use of the auctions and the payment services. In due course the Feds will become involved, mark my words.
[ edited by fortnum on Jul 8, 2001 02:12 PM ]
posted on July 8, 2001 03:27:08 PM newIf your a disatisfied Delta airline customer you can stand at the counter for a few minutes and get indignant, then you'll be asked to move on. PayPal gives unsatisfied customers the luxury of several message boards to voice their complaints, over and over and over and over and... (sigh) well you get the point.
I am sorry that the fact that I won't just roll over like a lemming and accept PayPal's 'non-answers' somehow impacts you, and you need to 'sigh' and roll your cyber-eyes at it. Too bad...get over it. PayPal can control the information (or lack thereof) that they supply, but they cannot control my reactions to it.
Since my only option left is to malinger from the sidelines, that is exactly what I'll do. PayPal knows what needs to happen to shut me up for all time. They do not feel it is important enough, so you are stuck with me. Hope I am not hurting your feelings (not really).
My querstion to you (and all the other smiley-faced PayPal cheerleaders) is why do you care?
There are plenty of comapnies that provide satisfactory customer service to me. I am sure that there are boards on the net where these comapnies are ravaged by dissatsified customers. That's their right, and I certainly won't sit on those boards and minimize thier complaints or endlessly defend these companies, simply because I happened to get good customer service.
These complaints have 0 bearing on me, and I am smart enough to understand that what happens to me is not what may have happened to others. Get the hint?
Some object that they can't get the answers they want from PayPal on these message boards, but they seem to ignore the fact that PayPal does give answers to most questions
Really?!? I repeatedly asked 5 or 6 questions, and not only were all unanswered, but ppd just pretended that they were not even asked. 100% unacceptable in my book.
If you can provide any evidence that these questions were indeed answered on this board, I'll retire as a poster here for all time.
I am anxious to see your proof. Please post it here for all to see. If you do not, the only assumption I can make is that they were never answered, and your assertion that they were is 100% baseless. That means you can go away and try to bother someone else. Your choice.
Come on, prove me wrong. I'm begging you.
and are the only service to offer a rep that will respond to anonymous messages, BillPoint won't do it, PayDirect won't do it, C2it won't do it, and MoneyZap won't do it.
1) Since my questions were totally ignored, I question the benefit of having a rep sitting here ignoring them. What possible good does that do for me? Besides handing out t-shirts, what benefits are there?
2) I never used any of these other services you mentioned, and I couldn't care less what their customer service practices are. I was a customer of PayPal, so their customer service philosophies were important to me. If you cannot see the difference, you are in sadder shape than even I thought.
Since tihs thread (and other similar threads) seem to annoy you so much, please accept my sincere invitation to refrain from following them. You are free to stick to all the 'Can I have a t-shirt?' and 'PayPal rules' threads. You might be happier there.
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jul 8, 2001 03:35 PM ]
posted on July 8, 2001 05:40:25 PM new
Uaru, I've seen you taut that article before about the 50,000 users every two days. That's 3 million users added every four months? No.
Uaru wrote:One of the things the BBB reported was a high incident of accounts being opened for people without their permission (the BBB doesn't even understand the service they are rating LOL.)
I do not see that in the report. What's your source? And if it was true, why would mean the BBB doesn't understand the service?
Why is it when customers can't register a credit card, PayPal says "try another card" instead of advising them to contact CyberSource to see if their credit data is correct (a practice that CyberSource encourages its clients to do)?
