posted on September 26, 2000 03:08:04 PM new
This was stated in the moderator's corner.
"In the early 1970s the worst cases were hospitalized and treated with Thorazine. Those vets can be seen to this day on sunny days shuffling around in fenced areas at any veterans mental health facility you care to visit. They are permanently victims of that drug condition, even though the drug itself cannot be prescribed in this country and hasn't been used in over ten years."
Thorazine can be prescribed and is still being used in some cases
"Yet still there are over 400,000 homeless Vietnam veterans, and hundreds of thousands more who are affected and either are unaware of what is available or too stoic to acknowledge the disruption of their lives which directly results from those war experiences which brought them to believe that they were actually in fact about to die. "
Please cite your sources, and statistics
A few excerpts from the book "Stolen Valor"
"STOLEN VALOR: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History
by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley
For 30 years, we have heard that we (Vietnam veterans) are losers. We are so spaced out on drugs and haunted by nightmares of killing babies that we can not hold a job or a relationship. We are a large portion of the prison and homeless population. Most of us suffer from PTSD and exposure to Agent Orange so we are unpredictably dangerous and should be avoided. TV, movies, some veterans groups, and even the Veterans Administration have reinforced this.
Guess what. It is not true.
Most of us have had a gut feeling for a long time that this was not true because it did not individually fit, but because we have avoided other Vietnam veterans we had no confirmation. After all, no self-respecting Vietnam veteran would want to be associated with these losers we hear about from the news media.
Like most of us, Vietnam veteran B.G. Burkett grew up hearing about the heroics of World War II and experienced first hand the respect our fathers, uncles, cousins and neighbors received from our families, communities and country. Most of our heroes were combat veterans, some of which we had met or we knew personally. When our turn came to serve our country, we did it willingly and with pride. But things were different for us. The post Vietnam society we endure is nothing at all like the post World War II society.
Burkett spends 692 pages dispelling the myths of the Vietnam War and its veterans. He describes in great detail how our valor was stolen based on his meticulous research done over ten years. With the help of award winning investigative reporter Glenna Whitley, Burkett describes how the fakes, wannabes, and exaggerators have tainted and tarnished our reputations with the willing help of the news media. Sloppy and poorly researched stories have allowed phony Vietnam veterans to establish a post Vietnam culture that painted an untrue picture for the world public. Burkett's research indicates that as many as 90% of these news-media-appointed representatives never even served in Vietnam!
Glenna Whitley writes in the Preface: "But 'Stolen Valor' is the story of hundreds of thousands of Vietnam veterans who served their country honorably only to see their efforts and sacrifice denigrated and tarnished. I thank them for their willingness to serve, and I believe Burkett's work will stand as an important watershed in the understanding of the Vietnam War and its impact on those who fought it."
According to Whitley, "The fact is, Vietnam veterans-real Vietnam veterans-are among the most successful generation of warriors in the nation's history. The popular image of the permanently traumatized Vietnam vet, perpetuated by fakes adept at capitalizing on the public image, is so wrong that it almost amounts to a parody."
"A corollary to the prison myth is the belief that substantial numbers of Vietnam veterans are unemployed. But a study by the Labor Department in 1994 showed that the unemployment rate for Vietnam veterans was 3.9 percent, significantly lower for male veterans of all eras (4.9 percent) and the overall unemployment rate for males (6 percent).
Since the war, panhandlers have buttressed the stereotype of the homeless Vietnam vet with signs like 'Vietnam Vet: Will Work for Food.' But the few studies using military records show that the percentage of Vietnam veterans among the homeless is very small.
The same is true for the belief that Vietnam vets have high rates of suicide. More Vietnam veterans, it is often reported, have died by their own hand than did in combat. Not true. A 1988 study by the Centers for Disease Control found that the suicide rates of Vietnam veterans aren't any different than those of the general population.
Contrary to these perceptions, Vietnam veterans as a group have higher achievement levels than their peers who did not serve in the military. Those who remained in uniform reshaped the American military after the Southeast Asian disaster and mobilized to win the Gulf War with lightning speed"
posted on September 26, 2000 03:43:35 PM new
Hello cariad,
I am sure the book has the facts. I also agree that it is possible for many VN vets to achieve great heights.
I even agree that I have known VN vets that have married, taken care of families, worked very hard, gone to school and live every night with thoughts that would scare most of us to death and those of us that have watched can say they would not believe it if they hadn't seen it with their own eyes. Yes, he/she is a great success by societies eyes because they don't have to see what happens to that person in the middle of the night. A success but at what cost to him/her.
Yes, I am very proud of that VN veteran.
But, I have seen so many that don't stand a chance. I see them at the VA hospital. They really aren't hard to spot. Thorazine, I can't verify but I can tell you that there are those that I would suspect take it or a newer equivalent drug. I have seen them that won't go to a hospital or get help. That may even be more sad.I salute that veteran and pray that they might one day trust enough to get help or recognize that they even need it or that anyone will help them.
I would also wonder how to take a count. If you don't have an address, a home, etc., it would be a little hard to count. It would also be hard to count those that it took 20 plus years to admit and get the treatment or even know it is available. Some still don't get help. Of course, I also have a little trouble with a census count. I have a feeling it might just be a little off too give or take several million or so.
I honor all veterans. There were differences in the way they were welcomed. A different time a different place but all should be honored. They showed up.
edited to add: I am not the person you are talking about but I had to respond. My only facts are the ones I have seen.
[ edited by shar9 on Sep 26, 2000 03:46 PM ]
posted on September 26, 2000 04:05:20 PM new
I can't speak to the issues of the Vet's, but as to Thorazine not being used, that I can reply to. My dad, in the last two days of his life was given Thorazine and Morphine as part of the Hospice care he was under. The Thorazine is a strong tranqualizer, and is used to keep patients such as my dad comfortable, albeit sedated. He would have suffered greatly had he been awake and aware the last day or so.
posted on September 26, 2000 05:15:21 PM new
"Stolen Valor" was even funded by a grant. One book to discount one hundred or more? Nice try, Mikey. But I'd suggest that rather than a political painting you go source the Veteran's Administration studies themselves. They certainly are not sympathetic, but they have acknowledged the scope of the problems.
What year did you say that 'Stolen Valor' was published? I wouldn't rely on any single source if you want a cohesive vendetta.
As to Thorazine, yes Meya it can still be used in short term situations and have benefit as a sedative, mostly, but in long term use it's effects are quite damaging as follows from any old physician's desk reference:
Nope. Can't paste. I'm a little bit handicapped by the periodic death of my cable modem. This service barely gets me here, mostly because I am not familiar with it. But you can go look it up online, just type thorazine into a search engine.
posted on September 26, 2000 05:23:59 PM newcariad
Excellent post and the content (data/facts) correlates with my experiences regarding contact with hundreds of Vietnam vets, employed and homeless, since 1965. As for the homeless vets, I am sure there are many that were adversely affected by their experiences, and that the adverse affects did contribute (to a degree) to their homelessness and other mental conditions.
However, I doubt the numbers are or ever were as high as certain social organizations estimated sand needed the numbers to be. Additionally, from my experience, many of the vets I met that were addicted to drugs or alcohol were probably predisposed to abuse and/or joblessness had they not served in the military and in Vietnam.
However, you have challenged a different view being expressed here in this forum and your information might not be accepted with open arms. Also, your post tends to strongly imply that there (is) a an extremely high number of fraudulent claims of being a Vietnam vet and being adversely affected or having been injured in combat. It has been my experience that the estimated fraud cases might be fairly close. Since 1965 I have been confronted by so many fraudulent claims of having served in Vietnam, it first appeared that our government might have been lying to us about how many American soldiers were actually sent to Vietnam.
Therefore, when I detect that something just is not Kosher regarding claims of being a Vietnam vet,(or any military and/or war vet) having been wounded, and having received medals of gallantry, it is tough for me to just allow such claims to be casually stated without being challenged.
Although the claims and flaunting might eventually be validated, in consideration of those who have actually deserve respect and accolades, any criticism and censure I might endure challenging suspicious claims is not a consideration or concern.
posted on September 26, 2000 05:41:42 PM new
KRS,
I have asked you to cite your sources for your claims of homelessness.
I used the excerpt from this book as it is a brief, concise synopsis of the myth of the dysfunctional vet. I could give a flying f what Bush has to do with it. I am sick and tired of everyone going around saying that the majority of Vietnam Vets are homeless and have mental disabilities; or that the majority of homeless are vietnam vets. It is an Urban Legend that needs to die!
posted on September 26, 2000 05:55:57 PM new
Well, actually, Mikey, what you just said about predisposition has validity. During the long course of the claims process Veterans and their police, school, and family situation records prior to entry into the armed services are repeatedly examined for any indication that an affect may have existed or been likely to have existed in their lives. Such claims are quickly dispensed with. There really is a hard series of hurdles to qualify for service connected disability benefits resulting from emotional issues brought forth by service in Vietnam. The VA has instructional data for all case workers and mental health professionals which must be adhered to the letter of the law which I've previously cited. They even resort to what could be called trickery in various forms to justify the denial of claims. You can't just walk in and say so. Thorough documentation is needed and the VA won't go looking for it. There was a serious loss of personnel records in a fire in St. Louis in 1972. Vets are left reliant upon sworn statements of fellow unit members to try to support their claims and even finding one who remembers them is nearly impossible. That's why I said that without documented awards of medals for valor or purple heart medals forget the claim. It's the first thing I do with a new vet. Certainly there are many false claims, Clinton even buried an ambassador at Arlington based on his false claim of service in Vietnam. We all remember that.
I'm a life member of the Vietnam Veterans of America. The monthly newspaper has a classified section in which vets or supposed vets can advertize for anyone to support their claims. Many are incarcerated and have heard that this might be a way out. I don't deny that there is fraud and attempted misuse of the mechanism. But I do know that with the structure and requirements of the law regarding such claims very few false ones get through. I get guys who bail out when they find out how long it can take or that they are going to repeatedly be examined (it's more interrogation than examination) by claims and compensations psychiatric pros who are only there to weed them out. It took me two years to obtain my record of awards. They gave me none that I knew of while I was in service, but one would be sent now and then to my father's house. It took a full 19 months to step the steps through their claim process, during which they tried such tawdry ploys as sending appointment letters to arrive the day before the appointment, sending needed info to incorrect addresses when irrelevant stuff came right to the door, having supposed vets, actually psychiatric workers, in waiting rooms for those appointments engaging in conversations, later found to be on tape, designed to elicit any scrap of information which could be used to deny my claim.
It pisses me off, and the anger drove me to continue to completion, and also drives me to help any other VALID vet to do what I have.
posted on September 26, 2000 06:44:02 PM new
Something about vets just don't talk like that or they don't post like that or whatever bothers me.
It's like saying farmers just don't do that.... say that...... or eat corn that way.
I have never fought in a war but I know a few things about some shell shock of another kind. I know a woman who went thru hell for four years straight, having her teeth knocked out, and all manner of horror foisted upon her all the while having a baby a year. She told her story once and only once and she seems now after a time to breeze thru life. If she has nighmares, she doesnt say.. She is productive and happy.
I know another woman who went thru some similar things, a different kind of hell....drawn out a little longer. She cries sometimes and has to talk about it still. She always finds the place to stand or sit where her back is to the wall. She is fearful, and hurt and cant seem to come out of it all.
Others still, men women and children who have their own scars, they all act differently, they all cope in their own way.
Yes there are statistics that can show a certain percentage use drugs or alchohol to hide in, there are statistics that show that some lose touch with mainstream society, but you dont often see statistics about those people, those vets that are doing just fine.
In essence, I'm saying that these generalizations about how a Vietnam Vet should, or does, act don't fly with me and I'm hoping they don't fly with alot of people.
posted on September 26, 2000 07:23:26 PM new
You're exactly right, Kel, and even then nothing is in stone. The attitudes of a person, their individual will to deal with the occurances in whatever way works for them are much more telling than any other person's mindset of ideas of how a person should react.
Your example is to the mark. Rape victims and victims of violent domestic situations can be crippled for life or seemingly suffer no effect. But seemingly and outwardly do not indicate their condition in any valid way.
I'm quite sure that if I walked into mikey's hometown coffee shop my appearance alone would produce a negative attitude toward me from most if not all of the occupants I find there. And I might very well meet with a different attitude of negativity in Biloxi, MS. The reactions of people to unfamiliar circumstance are set in their societal norms in any situation. But those reactions are not useful indicators of the realities of the perceived person's life.
cariad,
If I tried to cite what you've called MY sources it would take as much room as did the recently closed Van Gogh thread, and it would take a great deal of work on my part. The information is available to you from a myriad of sources in the net if you'd care to go get them. Type in "vietnam veteran" or "PTSD" and follow the links.
posted on September 26, 2000 07:57:16 PM new
"If I tried to cite what you've called MY sources it would take as much room as did the recently closed Van Gogh thread, and it would take a great deal of work on my part. The information is available to you from a myriad of sources in the net if you'd care to go get them. Type in "vietnam veteran" or "PTSD" and follow the links."
I have done that KRS, for years, and researched any relevant studies. And it is NOT there, and you obviously can't find it or you would be able to CITE something, anything! It would not take a great deal of work to find.
I do not doubt for one minute , the difficulties you described regarding service connected claims. However, that does not support an argument for the claimed high percentage of homeless,unemployed, dysfunctional,suicidal vets.
stupid sig. line not appropriate here
[ edited by cariad on Sep 26, 2000 08:01 PM ]
posted on September 26, 2000 08:08:14 PM new
I don't give a tick on a dogs ass for the kind of proof that y'all are badgering for. KRS has stated in the other thread that he runs into fake Vietnam vets.
I don't understand why it has to be this way with this war. There is a brotherhood of WWII men but not with this one. No fellowship, so much mistrust. I am thinking that is one of the main reasons that alot of these Vets cannot deal at times. There is all this bitterness and mistrust and back biting and that just from their fellow fighters!!!!! Let alone the the coming home to the exact opposite of a heros welcome.
posted on September 26, 2000 08:25:39 PM new
Fake VietNam vets is not the major issue here for me, Kitsch. The claim was made that there are over 400,000 homeless vets, which perpetuates a stereotype and myth of the VietNam vet and I am personally sick of it and if you're gonna claim it, back it up.
cariad
posted on September 26, 2000 08:31:12 PM new
"There is all this bitterness and mistrust and back biting and that just from their fellow fighters!!!!! Let alone the the coming home to the exact opposite of a heros welcome. "
Not true. Most Vietnam vets, at least the ones I know, trust only each other when talking about, or dealing with that war..
cariad
posted on September 26, 2000 08:37:27 PM newkitsch1
cariad's argument (position) is based on his/her belief that misinformation is being stated and possibly being perceived as facts, and that the information, if inaccurate, is an injustice to all veterans.
It has taken a long time for the (Vietnam) vets to get above the erroneous stereotyping that they (Vietnam vets) all are alcoholics, drug addicts, homeless and lazy bums, and psychopathic with violent tendencies and will kill you at the blink of an eye.
posted on September 26, 2000 08:41:17 PM new
I'm sorry and I KNOW that I am out of my league here in the history of Vietnam, but I see a man accusing another of lying about being in Nam, and I have seen it in RL. I see every detail picked apart. I have known a few men that were there and I see men who wish to have nothing to do with that past and who don't sit around with a buch of buddies talking bout it. They just kind of stay to themselves.
It doesnt seem a close group to me, not like the Veterans of other wars.
posted on September 26, 2000 08:49:13 PM new
You seemed to have missed my having said that because of the system problems here I am unable to cut and paste, but that homeless figure came directly from the president's commision on homeless, as I recall. It is not, BTW, the majority of Vietnam vets as you keep saying. There were more than 2.5 million U.S. military personnel who served in country vietnam during the conflict. It is, however the largest single identifiable block of homeless population in the country as of whenever that commission study was done.
I can understand your wish not to be painted with a negative brush if you are a vietnam vet, and you may have overcome any ill effects in all measurable parameters, or you may just not wish to be classified as one of those others. I've done well also. I've completed a career with many successes, and recently was able to make a large donation to the Vietnam Memorial Fund for maintenance of the Wall.
But you do all veterans a disservice if you take any of the characterizations of the plight of others personally because you don't agree with them, particularly so when you make use of the Bush hired yellow journalists to make your case.
So you are sick of it. Fine, be sick of it. You remind me of so many others that I've interacted with over the years. Uninformed and belligerently opposed to an embarrassing truth.
I used to feel that I should somehow apologize for my part in vietnam, and even apologize for all who went there and came back to the likes of what you are putting out. I finally had to make up my mind that that was BS, that I had nothing to apologize for. So I don't.
posted on September 26, 2000 08:50:49 PM new
With that, I will leave, but I tell ya SgtMike, there have been alot of games played on these boards and I spot some and miss some, but I don't believe for a minute that KRS is playing any games for fame. Hell, he's already board famous. (yeah, love 'im hate 'im, he's already an icon) He didnt need to share so much to impress anyone. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/[email protected]/
posted on September 26, 2000 08:54:20 PM new
Everyone,
This is a very controversial subject, and this thread is quickly becoming confrontational. If the topic (statistical information concerning Vietnam veterans) cannot be discussed without discussing individuals, I'm going to have to lock it up.
posted on September 26, 2000 09:02:46 PM new
No mikey, he's coming off with more than that. I completely agree with what you said about overcoming stereotypes in all avenues of American life. It's the single most pervasive problem faced by vets. And it's all BS to every vet. Most still shy away from confronting it, some do in cariad's way, others are doing as I'm doing, and that is saying "F***Y**! I don't buy it anymore and I'm not rolling over to it anymore." The only mechanism available that's of any use to us is to make them pay. Pay what is by law rightfully ours in the spirit of the social contract voiced by Abraham Lincoln's "We shall care for him who has born the brunt of battle" speech, the slogan of the Veteran's Administration contained on a plaque in every one of their facilities. That social contract is that the People of this country asked that we do such and such for them, and in return the people of this country would do such and such for us.
That's what I'm after, and that's why I'm vocal about it.
posted on September 26, 2000 09:49:57 PM new
From the National Coaltion on Homelessness
"Despite the overrepresentation of veterans in the homeless population, homelessness among veterans is not clearly related to combat military experience. Rather, studies show that homeless veterans appear less likely to have served in combat than housed veterans (Rosenheck, 1996).
Similarly, despite the widespread perception that Vietnam-era veterans constitute the majority of homeless veterans, research indicates that the veterans who are at greatest risk of homelessness are those who served during the late Vietnam and post-Vietnam era (Rosenheck, 1996). These veterans had little exposure to combat, but appear to have increased rates of mental illness and addiction disorders, possibly due to recruitment patterns. Faced with a lack of affordable housing, declining job opportunities, and stagnating wages (see "Why are People Homeless?," NCH Fact Sheet #1), people with these disabilities are more vulnerable to homelessness. "
posted on September 26, 2000 10:09:17 PM new
cariad,
In part I find that not arguable. There was apparently a higher usage of drugs by troops in Vietnam late in the war, and that surely exaberates their problems by contribution.
Still, it doesn't take away that they ARE vietnam vets, and I've often wondered what it must have been like to be serving there when it was abundantly clear that the nation no longer supported them at all and they were faced with the ever present prospect of being the last American killed in a war that noone believed in anymore. I'm glad that I wan't there then because I'm not sure what I'd be like now. At least there was a vestige of hope and a belief in the honor of what we were doing available in 1968-69. When the vietnamization program was in full swing, and troop reductions were the reality of the war, was there anything left for the soldiers to hang onto to fight for? Is it really such a wonder that many have never been able to reenter mainstream society after that?
posted on September 26, 2000 10:35:15 PM new
krs,
Firstly, I have no doubt as to your veracity. As long as I have been here you have never been this forthcoming with your personal life and I have never had any reason to wonder about something you might write.
Now my question. Do you think that maybe the lack of inclusion by a certain Veteran's Group made Vietnam Vets feel more turned upon?
The reason I am asking is that I do our festival parade and one year I decided to have all of our veterans as Grand Marshalls. The WW2 part was easy, Korean "Conflict" a little harder because they evidently had to have relation who fought in WW2 to belong. The Korean Vets were also less forthcoming.
I really wanted to have Vietnam Vets in it because that was "my war." They were almost impossible to find even in my immediate rural area. I knew where some of them were but others had kept it hidden for so long that people had forgotten they had served and others didn't want anything to do with it. I think I ended up with less than 5 Viet Nam vets. I had ads in the paper every week, phone lines going, everything I could think of to find Korean and Viet Nam Vets. I just thought it was a shame that there was no local record and they weren't allowed to join this vet group on their own service. I think the group is sorry now, too. At least that is what some of them have expressed to me.
On a brighter note I did find a Viet Nam Vet group from a city near us and when they came through the parade you wouldn't believe the standing ovation they received. It was awesome and in pouring down rain!
Bye the way, you are to come to our coffee shop anytime you like.
posted on September 26, 2000 10:48:29 PM new
Hi Calamity,
Yes, though I've only been a member of a Vietnam vet oriented VFW post in Santa Cruz, CA. I do know that there was a srong exclusion of both Vietnam and Korean War vets as losers by the predominantly WW2 VFW organizations. It's only been in the last ten years or so that those post more fully welcome later vets and most later area vets, particularly Vietnam vets feel that the reason for the new welcome is that the memberships are dwindling as WW2 vets pass away.
posted on September 27, 2000 04:15:50 AM new
Myth: The fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.
One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,169 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served. Although the percent who died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.
www.vhfcn.org/stat.htm
